Was also thinking that before about playing AWB as a right-sided CB. I am not a fan of AWB playing as a wing-back, because as you mentioned, doesn't offer much going forward. I would love to see Laird/Dalot and Williams as wing-backs with the freedom to bomb forward and not worry as much about the defensive duties.
The 3-5-2 formation under Ole
- Thread starter MadMike
- Start date
I wanted us to stick with this formation, it gives Rashford and James way more freedom. Disappointing Ole changed it when it seemed to be working, we looked more fluid and then that was back to tumescent stuff.
It was such an obvious formation switch in the 2nd half, would have helped us sustain attacks and would have got Rashford and Martial closer to one another
If I can see it sat at home why didn't the manager on the bench?
If I can see it sat at home why didn't the manager on the bench?
We look quite solid with it. Shaw as LCB with Williams as LWB is really promising and sometimes allows us to overload the attack when a CB steps up.
Would like to see us continue with it and would expect the same against Wolves this weekend.
Would like to see us continue with it and would expect the same against Wolves this weekend.
I'd like to see us with AWB as the RCB, Shaw as LWB and Williams as RWB.
Players playing on their correct side and therefore more dangerous with the ball.
Absolutely incorrect. Both Martial and Rashford prefer hanging around on the left and cut inside. The only true CF were Lukaku, RVP and Ibra, whom we got rid of or retire....
Actually wouldnt be opposed to playing shaw maguire and awb as the back three. Shaw and awb will be comfortable if they get dragged out wide.
Have fred and mct as more defensive midfielders that slot into a cb role if one of the cbs get dragged out wide.
Then play wingbacks as wingers higher up the pitch with a 10.
Almost a 3 2 3 2 formation.
Against weaker teams anyway
Is Williams correct postion on the right? Didnt see any of his youth career, and just from watching him, it seems hes left footed and prefers the left side?
Hes right footed definitely
Our wingbacks aren't good enough unless if we use AWB and Shaw and RCB and LCB respectively then bring Dalot and Williams.
Agreed.
Would like to see AWB as the RCB, Drop Lindelof and put somebody like Laird as the RWB, or even Dalot to begin with.
Wow interesting. Though tbf, when I first started watching Irwin thought he was left footed
I don't think it's a good idea because we lack the attacking minded wing backs and 3 CBs who are comfortable enough on the ball to play this formation and still offer enough quality in our build up play.
433/4141 is the way to go imo but yeah even in this formation we would have to bring in at least one more attack minded wingback and a CB who can actually pass and defend.
433/4141 is the way to go imo but yeah even in this formation we would have to bring in at least one more attack minded wingback and a CB who can actually pass and defend.
I really enjoyed Maguire's role vs Tranmere and I think he could be given similar tasks when facing lower PL oppositions.
I think a back three of Maguire (LCB) Lindelof and Bissaka (RCB), with LCB and RCB tasked to carry out the ball and 2 attacking wingbacks would work best.
I think a back three of Maguire (LCB) Lindelof and Bissaka (RCB), with LCB and RCB tasked to carry out the ball and 2 attacking wingbacks would work best.
Conte's formation when he went to Chelsea I think is a good one, with wingbacks and wingers as i think Rashford is good coming in from the left. Although it needs 2 strong probably more defensive minded CM's, which with the acquisition of Bruno probably doesnt work.
I thought the idea yesterday would be for Greenwood and Martial to split, picking up the space behind City's advancing fullbacks. I feel for forwards in any formation who know they'll be feeding on scraps, and in our team sans Pogba there's very very little coming from midfield, but I thought our positional play and movement up front was very poor yesterday, particularly from Martial. Rashford is an awful miss of course, but I think while 352 can definitely be a goer we lack too many of the basic fundamentals just now for it to pay dividends for us (below average attacking fullbacks, no creativity in midfield, few willing runners up top).
I would describe it as a 5-3-2 more than anything else, offensively it's a dreadful setup for us. We don't stretch the opposition because our wingbacks aren't really a threat in 1v1 and we struggle to keep and move the ball in the opposition's half. Defensively it's fairly solid, we crowd central areas and since our wingbacks are genuine fullbacks, there is nothing to exploit on the flank for the opposition.
I think this should be our preferred formation.
Yeah this is a very accurate portrayal of the issue with it. It limits us to very few chances overall. In games like yesterday where we're the underdog perhaps it works but just last year people would have been blowing up at such a defensive minded performance.
I still favour the 433 ideally with Martial on the left so they have to come out to stop him. Our entire tactic is to hit teams before they get into shape rather than moving them out of it once set. It's severely limited.
We don’t have any proper wingers though mate. James can’t cross, Rashford is an inside forward, Mata & Pereira are number 10s, Greenwood is a inside forward or number 9, Martial is a inside forward or false 9 & Lingard is a false footballer. We don’t have the players for a traditional 4-4-2.
I would certainly argue that Pereira is more of a RM than a #10, any day of the week. He lacks the movement, goal threat, orchestrating and low penetrative passing skills required to be a #10. Whereas he possesses the combativeness, tracking and, above all, crossing ability to make decent RM. Whether he's of the required level given where we want to be, that's a whole different discussion we could have about a lot of our players. Dalot is another candidate for a RM position, but Pereira definitely looks more mature and potent than him at this stage at least. Perhaps Williams could also be moulded into that position with time. We do completely lack a LM type of player though. We have no one that combines a bit of energy and verve with a decent left foot cross.
I'd also argue we lack the right players for any specific system given our chaotic recruitment strategy of late. Signing Bruno Fernandes, a clear #10, indicates that we intend to play 4-3-3 which also suits Rashford, one of our most important players, as a left inside forward. But then what's the point of buying a RB like AWB only 6 months ago, when we know that for all his amazing defensive qualities he can't provide the width required in a 4-3-3. And it only exacerbates the problems we already have with Shaw on the other side.
Agree with this except James is a very good crosser. The problem is our forwards are shit at storming the box and being where they need to be to score goals from his crosses.
I was just going to say that. Dalot looks better as an attacking WB and so does Williams. AWB is good defensively, but an upgrade on Shaw is needed as well.
I agree though, traditional 442 would not work with this squad at the moment
I wrote it in the AWB thread, but i think we have looked good in 352 at times this season and when we get some players back i would like us to try it out
----------------------------DDG-------------------------
--------AWB------Maguire-------Lindelof-----
Dalot-------------------Fred---------------Williams
----------------Pogba---------Bruno------------------
---------Martial---------------Rashford-------------
AWB is poor going forward, but a fan-fecking-tastic 1on1 defender and Maguire so far has looked really solid in a back 3. Dalot and Williams looks suspect at times as fullbacks because of their defensive frailties, but both of them look good when attacking, so they can provide the width. Fred as DM, and Pogba/Bruno as CM's/AM's to provide some creativity from the center. Martial and Rashford of course as CF's
Dont know if it would work, but maybe a 343 could work? I know Conte used this quite a bit in the past
----------------------------DDG-------------------------
--------AWB------Maguire-------Lindelof-----
--------------------------Fred---------------------------
--------------Pogba---------McTomminay-----
-------------------------Bruno--------------------------
----Greenwood---Martial--Rashford------
Incredibly narrow and you risk getting outnumbered on the flanks, but it might work against sides that park the bus provided the 4 in the middle manages to move about a bit and get out wide both in attack and defense
Agreed. Rashford's already shown that the left is better for him and Martial doesn't penetrate past the 18 yard box line when he's in the middle. People talk about his hold up play, but he holds himself up too much of the time.
James is an outstanding crosser for sure. Calling our forwards shit at storming the box is a bit generous, though. Most times, they don't seem to try to storm the box at all.
I agree with you on this and I think our attacking play would improve a lot due to this.
Regarding crosser and excluding Young who has left, Rojo was the best but he couldn't do anything else. I think Shaw's crossing is 2nd best. Dalot and AW are probably the worst, however both gives plenty of pace, just at the wrong place. James is probably the best on the RHS, more balanced. I think we can use Gary's advice 2 hours a week just to whip up our crossing.
DDG
AWB-Maguire-Shaw
James-McTominay-Fred-Williams
Fernandes
Greenwood-Rashford/Martial
AWB-Maguire-Shaw
James-McTominay-Fred-Williams
Fernandes
Greenwood-Rashford/Martial
I guess it is an interesting idea. Pace on each side of Maguire. Workrate and pressing, both tight and in wide positions in midfield. Not sure about that teams ability in possession, but would be interesting to see against tougher teams I guess.
After Rashfords injury we basically had three viable players for a front 3. One of those was 18 and not ready to start every match, one injury prone(ish) and one out of form.
This is a big reason for the shift, because Ole wanted one on the bench. Playing all 3 every game would be suicide, and only a matter of time before one got injured. This is why a forward signing was so important, now Ole has the option of playing three forwards again, and also putting Bruno in the hole is his preferred 4-2-3-1 formation or something close to that.
If we persists with 3-5-2 we're going to struggle as we don't have the full backs for it.
Can James play as the right wing back do we think?
This is a big reason for the shift, because Ole wanted one on the bench. Playing all 3 every game would be suicide, and only a matter of time before one got injured. This is why a forward signing was so important, now Ole has the option of playing three forwards again, and also putting Bruno in the hole is his preferred 4-2-3-1 formation or something close to that.
If we persists with 3-5-2 we're going to struggle as we don't have the full backs for it.
Can James play as the right wing back do we think?
A 4-2-3-1 is a formation you play when you have a specialist in that #10 role. For most of the season we have been playing that formation with either Lingard, Periera or Mata in that "specialist" position. Basically, we never should have been playing that formation. However, now that we have Bruno (the "specialist we've needed), if we all of a sudden scrap the 4-2-3-1 and opt for a 5-3-2 (don't kid yourself and call it a 3-5-2) I'm going to lose my sh*t...
Is it time to bring it back (or 3-4-1-2) to bring some stability back to a extremely leaky defence and easily over run midfield?
DDG
Bailly Maguire Shaw
Williams Fred VDB Telles
Bruno
Rashford Martial
Bailly Maguire Shaw
Williams Fred VDB Telles
Bruno
Rashford Martial
Absolutely, Ole did do that last season. Moving to a 3-5-2 around the turn of the year, when the defence was leaky to get some clean sheets / confidence back in.
He seems to be sticking to his 4-2-3-1 too stubbornly since the lock-down. Things have to change now though - none of our CB's seem capable of playing in back 2 anymore.
Ole says he takes responsibility for today's heavy loss - he needs to make some tough decisions to show he can manage Man United.
Lindelof will probably start over Bailly after that shit show, but yeah pretty much this. Rotate Greenwood and Cavani with the front 2. Pogba/matic/mctominay with that midfield 3. Get some balance back.
It really should have been obvious that this is the only formation we could use to play a high pressure game as we should have pace around McGuire if we are going to persist with him as in a 2 he is only suitable for a low block/deeper defence due to his lack of pace, our transfer focus should have been on defenders and maybe a defensive midfielder, with the current squad where exactly does sancho go to make us a better team.
I'd put Lindelof back in to replace Bailly. When playing out the back, you just know that Bailly is an accident waiting to happen, due to lapse of concentration or bad decision making. Especially when he tries to take on people in his own box.
It does seem like 3-5-2 is the best way to go at the moment, and maybe we're buying Telles isn't to replace Shaw but to play alongside Shaw in a 3-5-2 formation.
That or a diamond should work. Until our defensive players remember how to defend.
Surprised we haven’t used it more often. Especially in big matches. It was so effective last season.
I feel OGS must implement more unpredictability in this team because everyone knows how we play a 4-2-3-1.
It’s imperative that our objective is to keep a clean sheet next match at all costs. Tighten up the team and work on shape. That’s what SAF did during a start to one of our seasons where we were free scoring (and winning) but loose at the back. Immediately mentioned we needed to cut out the goals conceded and proceeded to squeeze out a few 1-0
I feel OGS must implement more unpredictability in this team because everyone knows how we play a 4-2-3-1.
It’s imperative that our objective is to keep a clean sheet next match at all costs. Tighten up the team and work on shape. That’s what SAF did during a start to one of our seasons where we were free scoring (and winning) but loose at the back. Immediately mentioned we needed to cut out the goals conceded and proceeded to squeeze out a few 1-0
I used to think that AWB was a potential candidate to play on the right of a back 3. Having watched him over a season, I don't think he can.
First, his positioning is suspect. He doesn't read the game and gets sucked out of position too easily.
Second, for someone so tall, he is very weak in the air. Won't win headers much.
A back 3 of Maguire, Bailly and Lindelof would be a better pick for back 3. In that order.
First, his positioning is suspect. He doesn't read the game and gets sucked out of position too easily.
Second, for someone so tall, he is very weak in the air. Won't win headers much.
A back 3 of Maguire, Bailly and Lindelof would be a better pick for back 3. In that order.
I was thinking about this and within 3-5-2 or variant, what is the best way we can setup?
I think Maguire should sit deep among the back 3. The two CBs on his side should be further forward to be able to form triangles with CDM and Fullbacks. I don't know right now who those 2 should be. Take your pick for RCB between Bailly and Lindelof. LCB should be Tuanzebe once he is back, instead of Shaw.
For Fullbacks, for now I will resist Williams on right and have AWB. Maybe his default position will be slightly behind Telles on other flank. Have VDB on right hand side but not too advanced for linking up with AWB. Greenwood or the right wide forward can stay up, VDB can look to release him.
Matic or Fred as CDM. Bruno in the hole, probably slightly leftwards but also able to take advantage of central area when left forward takes defenders with him. Martial or Rashford on left wide and Greenwood on right. Rashford can do job on right also. The forwards can be free to interchange positions.
What is obvious is that we need players positioned properly to cede as less territory as possible and gaps between them should be minimal. Also need added protection to cover our defensive frailties.
I think Maguire should sit deep among the back 3. The two CBs on his side should be further forward to be able to form triangles with CDM and Fullbacks. I don't know right now who those 2 should be. Take your pick for RCB between Bailly and Lindelof. LCB should be Tuanzebe once he is back, instead of Shaw.
For Fullbacks, for now I will resist Williams on right and have AWB. Maybe his default position will be slightly behind Telles on other flank. Have VDB on right hand side but not too advanced for linking up with AWB. Greenwood or the right wide forward can stay up, VDB can look to release him.
Matic or Fred as CDM. Bruno in the hole, probably slightly leftwards but also able to take advantage of central area when left forward takes defenders with him. Martial or Rashford on left wide and Greenwood on right. Rashford can do job on right also. The forwards can be free to interchange positions.
What is obvious is that we need players positioned properly to cede as less territory as possible and gaps between them should be minimal. Also need added protection to cover our defensive frailties.