Teacher beheaded near Paris after showing cartoons of Prophet Muhammad

[calodo2003]

It would be an interesting experiment in this debate on censorship and restrictions on free speech if we censored and removed all the parts and verses from all canonical religious scriptures and books that we in 2020 find "offensive" and "problematic" and see what we are left with. I'm sure someone must have done it already.

It’d look worse than the Mueller Report.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

The parents of pupils at the school who allegedly threatened the teacher should also be arrested and prosecuted.

 

[Deery]

The problem with stating things in absolutes is they're always wrong. See?

I'm not religious and absolutely agree that religion has caused incredible pain, but the positive elements of religion have been so plain to see throughout history that pretending they don't exist means your argument can't be taken seriously. It brings to mind many of the flaws you yourself state exist in religious people.



Many non-believers don't shove it in your face, and many believers do. I had someone spend half an hour yesterday telling me how Turkey survived the war because they were with god, and anyone who doesn't have that is in for an eternity of pain. He thought he was an exemplary muslim who holds humility at the core of his belief. Everyone thinks they are the "good" kind of believer / non-believer, and they exist across the spectrum of fanaticism.

That’s maybe one guy in what could be 100,000, I don’t buy this idea that if you believe in God you somehow are positioning yourself as better than anyone else. Am sure there are many people that believe in God on the Caf that wouldn’t get involved in discussion because they’d be told they’re a fool.

 

[Bebestation]

I feel the same.

A shooting is instantaneous, the results happen immediately. A beheading is a laborious process, the sheer amount of time spent hacking through bone, skin, sinew, etc., isn't quick at all. Toss in the struggle & noise by the victim, it’s an horrific process.

Beheading is the action of turning any meat in to Halal.

 

[Godfather]

The problem with stating things in absolutes is they're always wrong. See?

I'm not religious and absolutely agree that religion has caused incredible pain, but the positive elements of religion have been so plain to see throughout history that pretending they don't exist means your argument can't be taken seriously. It brings to mind many of the flaws you yourself state exist in religious people.

I'd agree but in case of religion talking in absolutes may be one of the few times it's absolutely right to do so. Looking at history and what it brought upon mankind is unparalleled. I may have been a tad extreme in that sentence but this is a topic that just angers me. Secularization and rationalism took centuries and it acutally seems we are going backwards these days.

And in reality I don't mind people that keep their believes by themselves. Quietly. But if they go out and their believes get questioned and they start to get aggressive they instantly lose any credibility for me. Actually it's more than that. I question their mental health.

 

[Marcosdeto]

Venezuela isn't a Western country.

Is westerner than europe

 

[Brwned]

That’s maybe one guy in what could be 100,000, I don’t buy this idea that if you believe in God you somehow are positioning yourself as better than anyone else. Am sure there are many people that believe in God on the Caf that wouldn’t get involved in discussion because they’d be told they’re a fool.

Yeah my point is you're just doing the reverse with the "other" side. Most non-believers are very humble and hardly even think about religion never mind get in your face about it. The noticeable and memorable ones are inevitably the exceptions, the ones who declare their non-believing in a way that grabs your attention. Which is what Godfather sees in reverse with religious folks.

There are many more people that do not fit your idea of what a normal religious person is, just as there are many fewer people that fit Godfather's idea of what a normal religious person is. It's a natural consequence of your social circles, your exposure to the topic, and the things that trigger your awareness.

 

[Synco]

It’s not as neat or simple to blame it solely on ISIS. ISIS may have the ultimate delivery vechicle, but the psychosis involved here is far greater than any single terrorist element. I’m equally contemptuous of all religions, especially those that can radicalize its followers to commit acts like this.

Dude, I haven't written an essay aimed on portraying the whole issue of Islamism, terrorism, Western anti-Islam ideology, Islam in general, and all the intricacies involved. I made a short post about one specific issue. It naturally means things are narrowed down and focused, and many related things aren't mentioned.

So to complete the strawman collection (so far): I know very well Islamism isn't restricted to ISIS, and beheading people is barbaric. I contested neither in my original argument.

Just in your use of vocabulary, you weren’t trying to criticize equally.

Can it get more unspecific? Hard to answer to such a wobbly allegation.

 

[calodo2003]

Dude, I haven't written an essay aimed on portraying the whole issue of Islamism, terrorism, Western anti-Islam ideology, Islam in general, and all the intricacies involved. I made a short post about one specific issue. It naturally means things are narrowed down and focused, and many things aren't mentioned.

So to complete the strawmen collection (so far): I know very well Islamism isn't restricted to ISIS, and beheading people is barbaric. I contested neither in my original argument.

Can it get more unspecific? Hard to answer to such a wobbly allegation.

Wow. What word diarrhea that is. Your original post was just not critical of both sides, now you’re trying to thread the needle. Your original post was poor, no worries, it happens.

 

[fergieisold]

As relevant as ever

Wish Hitchins was still around. God knows what he'd make of it all. Dawkins is a great speaker on matters of religion too.

 

[Godfather]

Yeah my point is you're just doing the reverse with the "other" side. Most non-believers are very humble and hardly even think about religion never mind get in your face about it. The noticeable and memorable ones are inevitably the exceptions, the ones who declare their non-believing in a way that grabs your attention. Which is what Godfather sees in reverse with religious folks.

There are many more people that do not fit your idea of what a normal religious person is, just as there are many fewer people that fit Godfather's idea of what a normal religious person is. It's a natural consequence of your social circles, your exposure to the topic, and the things that trigger your awareness.

To be clear here. My idea of religious people isn't what my posts above may have indicated. I actually have quite a few religious people in my family. I still see absolutely no reason at this day and age to believe in anything irrational as God. It's baffling. But obviously I have no problem with people going to church every Sunday (as some of my family members do). What I do care about though and what is the case with many religious people, is that whenever you start to question their believes they come across as arrogant, stubborn and in some cases aggressive. And at this point there is absolutely no reason to further discuss anything with these guys.

 

[Synco]

Your original post was just not critical of both sides, now you’re trying to thread the needle. Your original post was poor, no worries, it happens.

All that happened is you failing to understand it. Miserably so, apparently.

 

[Deery]

Yeah my point is you're just doing the reverse with the "other" side. Most non-believers are very humble and hardly even think about religion never mind get in your face about it. The noticeable and memorable ones are inevitably the exceptions, the ones who declare their non-believing in a way that grabs your attention. Which is what Godfather sees in reverse with religious folks.

There are many more people that do not fit your idea of what a normal religious person is, just as there are many fewer people that fit Godfather's idea of what a normal religious person is. It's a natural consequence of your social circles, your exposure to the topic, and the things that trigger your awareness.

Fair assessment, it’s very much the way of the World.

 

[calodo2003]

All that happened is you failing to understand it. Miserably so, apparently.

My comprehension skills are fine, your ability to convey what you mean is lacking.

 

[Jippy]

To be clear here. My idea of religious people isn't what my posts above may have indicated. I actually have quite a few religious people in my family. I still see absolutely no reason at this day and age to believe in anything irrational as God. It's baffling. But obviously I have no problem with people going to church every Sunday (as some of my family members do). What I do care about though and what is the case with many religious people, is that whenever you start to question their believes they come across as arrogant, stubborn and in some cases aggressive. And at this point there is absolutely no reason to further discuss anything with these guys.

What reaction do you expect? Why do they have to justify their beliefs to you?

 

[nimic]

Is westerner than europe

That's not what Western means, it's not a purely geographical term.

 

[nimic]

It's on the west side of the map

Not if your map was made in Japan.

 

[e.cantona]

Laughable how one has to excuse one's opinion on matters like this.

This is bad, but other things are of course also bad. So this is not the only bad thing. There are even worse things. This other thing happened a long time ago, that was even worse.

How about just let people criticize bad ideas, no matter how they compare to other bad ideas.

Religion may have been a great invention at the time. Today not so much. Some religions are worse than others.

 

[Foxbatt]

Mate I'd actually apply for guardianship for anyone that in this day and age still believes in God so get off your high horse. It's funny though that religious people think they've got some sort of higher knowledge than anyone else when it's the exact opposite most of the time and whenever their stupid believes are questioned they turn stubborn or even aggressive.

I entirely agree with you on this. This is what I have said earlier on too. Especially in Islam. The so called Imams think they have a monopoly on religion, especially Islam. But Islam does not have a priesthood and everyone is equal in the eyes of Allah and it depends on who is most devoted.
These things were not a major issue earlier on before Al Queda. No one was acting like this then. The west and especially the USA started this by sponsoring the Mujaahideen and this has changed the entire world.

 

[Synco]

My comprehension skills are fine, your ability to convey what you mean is lacking.

Nope, you just didn't get it. As evidenced by your first reply ('chicken and egg').

For the sake of this thread: If you really want to go on about it, write a concrete argument, directly referring to quotations from the post in their correct context. Perhaps start off with a short summary of my argument, as you understand it.

Everything else is just spamming by now. I'm off for a few hours and may reply later today or tomorrow.

 

[Godfather]

What reaction do you expect? Why do they have to justify their beliefs to you?

That's two different questions there:

First of, they don't have to justify anything. As I've said as long as they keep their believes to themselves and don't harm anyone as it's supposed to be it's fine. But if it's impossible to have a normal discussion about it, because everytime you critices actions from "spiritual leaders" or actions in the name of a religion (may it be child molesting or freaking beheading people) and they start to excuse it with stupid arguments like "well this is not what the Quran states", it's simply getting ridiculous. Those books are full of violence, stupid miracles and many many contradictions. Yet you can't point that out without people feeling offended. More so in Islam than in any other religion.

And your second question can't be serious. You can have normal discussions about politics, about sports and you should be able to have normal dicussions about religion too. If that's not the case it's a sign that it takes up way too much and an unhealthy part of you life. Even my ex used to shush me every time I had a bad word to say about priests. Seems you can criticice everything in life but critizicing an institution that caused probably more deaths than anything else in mankind (as pretext or not) is not appropriate.

 

[calodo2003]

Nope, you just didn't get it. As evidenced by your first reply ('chicken and egg').

For the sake of this thread: If you really want to go on about it, write a concrete argument, directly referring to quotations from the post in their correct context. Perhaps start off with a short summary of my argument, as you understand it.

Everything else is just spamming by now. I'm off for a few hours and may reply later today or tomorrow.

Okay. Toddle on.

 

[Marcosdeto]

That's two different questions there:

First of, they don't have to justify anything. As I've said as long as they keep their believes to themselves as it's supposed to be it's fine. But if it's impossible to have a normal discussion about it, because everytime you critices actions from "spiritual leaders" or actions in the name of a religion (may it be child molesting or freaking beheading people) and they start to excuse it with stupid arguments like "well this is not what the Quran states", it's simply getting ridiculous. Those books are full of violence, stupid miracles and many many contradictions. Yet you can't point that out without people feeling offended. More so in Islam than in any other religion.

And your second question can't be serious. You can have normal discussions about politics, about sports and you should be able to have normal dicussions about religion too. If that's not the case it's a sign that it takes up way too much and an unhealthy part of you life. Even my ex used to shush me every time I had a bad word to say about priests. Seems you can criticice everything in life but critizicing an institution that caused probably more deaths than anything else in mankind (as pretext or not) is not appropriate.

i was raised catholic, the child molesting stuff is not on the bible, the ones that did it and the ones that tried to covered it are just assholes in the worst sense of that word
i am not going to cotton cover it, it was a shaming disgrace not only what those priests did to the victims but the way the head of the catholic church tried to cover it
not only that, i feel ashamed of the catholics that try to give an explanation that doesn't involve the words pedophiles, rapists and accesory after the fact
at least, the muslims can say "it's in the Quran", catholics have not such an excuse

 

[Gehrman]

What reaction do you expect? Why do they have to justify their beliefs to you?

Thing is Christianity and Islam are both quite keen on protelysing, so you will often end up debating their beliefs anyway. I least from my personal experience.

 

[Jippy]

That's two different questions there:

First of, they don't have to justify anything. As I've said as long as they keep their believes to themselves as it's supposed to be it's fine. But if it's impossible to have a normal discussion about it, because everytime you critices actions from "spiritual leaders" or actions in the name of a religion (may it be child molesting or freaking beheading people) and they start to excuse it with stupid arguments like "well this is not what the Quran states", it's simply getting ridiculous. Those books are full of violence, stupid miracles and many many contradictions. Yet you can't point that out without people feeling offended. More so in Islam than in any other religion.

It sounds like you want religious people to 'keep their beliefs to themselves', yet you can spout your beliefs to them and try pick holes in their faith.
It's perfectly possible to have debates about religion with most religious leaders- the vast majority would never condone violence, as you must really know.
It's rich that you're criticising others' intolerance.

And your second question can't be serious. You can have normal discussions about politics, about sports and you should be able to have normal dicussions about religion too. If that's not the case it's a sign that it takes up way too much and an unhealthy part of you life. Even my ex used to shush me every time I had a bad word to say about priests. Seems you can criticice everything in life but critizicing an institution that caused probably more deaths than anything else in mankind (as pretext or not) is not appropriate.

If no-one wants to discuss religion with you in real life maybe it is a reflection of you and how you approach the subject.

Btw Nazism, Mao and Stalin caused way more deaths than religion ever did.

 

[Deery]

i was raised catholic, the child molesting stuff is not on the bible, the ones that did it
and the ones that tried to covered it are just assholes in the worst sense of that word
i am not going to cotton cover it, it was a shaming disgrace not only what those priests did to the victims but the way the head of the catholic church tried to cover it
not only that, i feel ashamed of the catholics that try to give an explanation that doesn't involve the words pedophiles, rapists and accesory after the fact
at least, the muslims can say "it's in the Quran", catholics have not such an excuse

What those people done was terrible and no right thinking Catholic would ever justify it.

It’s one of the reasons my own mother stopped attending Mass because of the child abuse scandals, but that’s not what he said, he said “anyone that believes in God has mental health problems”.

Which I find to be extremely offensive not only to religious people but also the mentality ill.

 

[Gehrman]

Wish Hitchins was still around. God knows what he'd make of it all. Dawkins is a great speaker on matters of religion too.

Personally I quite liked this debate because I felt all 4 speakers were well picked and got their fair share of time. Dawkins of will speak what non-sense superstition in religion is, but he will hardly ever concede that anything good can be cultivated through religion.

 

[Godfather]

It sounds like you want religious people to 'keep their beliefs to themselves', yet you can spout your beliefs to them and try pick holes in their faith.
It's perfectly possible to have debates about religion with most religious leaders- the vast majority would never condone violence, as you must really know.
It's rich that you're criticising others' intolerance.

Why would I do that? Got better things to do than that believe me. On a few occassions, and especially when gruesome things like here in France happens some feel the need to actually excuse these actions and act like their religion has nothing to do with it though.

If no-one wants to discuss religion with you in real life maybe it is a reflection of you and how you approach the subject.

Btw Nazism, Mao and Stalin caused way more deaths than religion ever did.

That's a strange argument. First off it's plain wrong and second off, I don't see many rational people defend these eras.

 

[DanH]

Btw Nazism, Mao and Stalin caused way more deaths than religion ever did.

Can you source that at all?

 

[KirkDuyt]

Laughable how one has to excuse one's opinion on matters like this.

This is bad, but other things are of course also bad. So this is not the only bad thing. There are even worse things. This other thing happened a long time ago, that was even worse.

How about just let people criticize bad ideas, no matter how they compare to other bad ideas.

Religion may have been a great invention at the time. Today not so much. Some religions are worse than others.

Religion is still just as effective as it was in (ancient) history. It's a tool to control the masses. Give them something to worship and fear. Keeps the masses in line. And the rulers free to do whatever the feck they want.

That opium thing Marx said was a good assessment.

 

[RedSky]

Religion may have been a great invention at the time. Today not so much. Some religions are worse than others.

The Worlds first and best propaganda tool. A necessity back way when humans were murdering each other every day, but soon manipulated by those in power to control the masses and do what they wished. Personally, I think the World would be a better place without Religion. But i'm pretty biased on the subject.

 

[Godfather]

What those people done was terrible and no right thinking Catholic would ever justify it.

It’s one of the reasons my own mother stopped attending Mass because of the child abuse scandals, but that’s not what he said, he said “anyone that believes in God has mental health problems”.

Which I find to be extremely offensive not only to religious people but also the mentality ill.

When they start getting aggressive whenever their religion is criticised is what I said. And yes I do stand by that.

 

[Gehrman]

Can you source that at all?

Just google it dude. I'd say that the casualties of Mao, Stalin and Nazi Germany are about equal to the casualties of Christianity and Islam but the latter managed in far less time.

 

[e.cantona]

Religion is still just as effective as it was in (ancient) history. It's a tool to control the masses. Give them something to worship and fear. Keeps the masses in line. And the rulers free to do whatever the feck they want.

That opium thing Marx said was a good assessment.

The Worlds first and best propaganda tool. A necessity back way when humans were murdering each other every day, but soon manipulated by those in power to control the masses and do what they wished. Personally, I think the World would be a better place without Religion. But i'm pretty biased on the subject.

Also a way to know your group, kin and friend from foe. Who can you trust and make relations with. Useful when the world was huge and unknown. Today, not so much. As a consoling tool when loosing a child, sure. But in deciding politics and global matters, not so much

 

[calodo2003]

It sounds like you want religious people to 'keep their beliefs to themselves', yet you can spout your beliefs to them and try pick holes in their faith.
It's perfectly possible to have debates about religion with most religious leaders- the vast majority would never condone violence, as you must really know.
It's rich that you're criticising others' intolerance.



If no-one wants to discuss religion with you in real life maybe it is a reflection of you and how you approach the subject.

Btw Nazism, Mao and Stalin caused way more deaths than religion ever did.

To think that the three listed mass murderers caused more deaths than religion is something. You think that those three causes contributed to more deaths than all the deaths caused by / in the name of religion? You’re looking at roughly 85 million between those three. Religions have been around for thousands of years.

Here’s a thumbnail sketch of deaths in the name of religion, don’t see things like the conquest of Latin America, etc. in this list. There’s certainly debate to be had in there, but most of these deaths occurred in the past few hundred years. Extrapolate that back fifteen hundred more years, this number explodes upwards:

 

[calodo2003]

Just google it dude. I'd say that the casualties of Mao, Stalin and Nazi Germany are about equal to the casualties of Christianity and Islam but the latter managed in far less time.

Roughly 85 million. Vastly more deaths have occurred in the name of religion than that throughout all of history.

 

[calodo2003]

The Worlds first and best propaganda tool. A necessity back way when humans were murdering each other every day, but soon manipulated by those in power to control the masses and do what they wished. Personally, I think the World would be a better place without Religion. But i'm pretty biased on the subject.

First conspiracy theories as well.

 

[Deery]

When they start getting aggressive whenever their religion is criticised is what I said. And yes I do stand by that.

You’re going to get extremists in every walk of life.

But it very much comes across as if you’re tarring everyone with the same brush.

 

[Gehrman]

Roughly 85 million. Vastly more deaths have occurred in the name of religion than that throughout all of history.

Okay I missed the mark around 100 million of point.

 

[Marcosdeto]

When they start getting aggressive whenever their religion is criticised is what I said. And yes I do stand by that.

you don't need to argue about religion to get that kind of response

start a thread here on the caf stating that you are going to vote for Trump and you'll see