Please. The problem is not Saudi.It doesn't need anything. Islam is going the wrong way and it's entirely due to the influence of these bearded weirdos.
Islam originally didn't have a priesthood and everyone is equal. And a Fatwa is only an opinion and doesn't have any legal backing. Anyone can give a Fatwa and most of it is contradictory too.
Now these Saudi educated so called Imams are trying to take control of the narrative of Islam. Most of the statements are taken out of context and used for their own gain. They are trying to get a Fatwa as a legal enforcement.
There is no compulsion in religion as in Islam but everyone is trying to force it.
You mean they got rich and industrialized.That is certainly a large part of it but how do you solve the Saudi Wahhabi problem now that the genie is out of the bottle?
The other part, as marktan alluded to, is other Abrahamic religions had a reformation in the 17th century which helped them get less radical.
Keep it up. Ignorant Idiots like bill maher is exactly what causes people to radicalize . Unless you are willing to analyze the cause behind the symptoms your constant criticism does absolutely nothing.And it will stay that way until people start questioning it without the god damn PC police coming out to defend the indefensible. I can make a joke about every religion and every major figure in that religion, with the exception of one. As someone who grew up extremely liberal in their view point, it beggars belief that liberals are never criticising the one religion which goes against their views far more than any other.
Bill Maher has been the only liberal who’s been consistent on this.
of course everyone knows that.Please. The problem is not Saudi.
The world is full of lunatics and idiots. Saudi may be just another one of them but remind me which power it is that gives Saudis arabia legitimacy? Why is the kingdom not "freed" as a democracy?
You and I both know the answer.
Ok, thanks for the heads up. I‘ll pop in when I have some time and have a look.The thread I think you have in mind doesn’t exclude non-religious people, despite what the OP says - I’m the top poster in it and I don’t follow any religion. It only exists because the other big threads about religion on the Cafe were being used pretty much solely to critique (to put it politely) religion, and it became impossible to have a general discussion about religion that didn’t descend into the usual back and forth, attacks and apologetics.
I have heard that Chechens are highly prized as mercenaries in general as they have grown up in that environment. The whole private army sector is mad, and reads like a Metal Gear Solid script. But that’s not really for this thread, so I won’t go on...It seems that radical Islam is very much alive in Chechnya.
If I'm not mistaken, many Isis fighters - even commanders - were Chechens, and surely there have been more incidents where they were involved.
VenezuelaBefore we give terrorism the both sides treatment, a gentle reminder that "far-left radicalization" essentially doesn't kill people in the west, and hasn't for decades. You're not wrong in your main point, of course, but some nuance is in order.
Not sure Mohammed would go for that. Wasn’t he more into pre-pubescent girls?Yeah Muhammed jesus and all other religious symbols should suck a big donkey duck
That is one hell of a leap.A first step might be to avoid needless provocation... I mean, what's happened here is horrific, but was what was the victim was trying to protest here worth the cost they paid?
If I walked into an LGBTQ+ bar spouting bible verse about how they're all gonna burn in hell, and didnt expect to have my head caved in, am I not guilty of being a bit naive?
The guy was teaching at his school. How is that needless provocation? He is not the guy who drew the original cartoon, he is an educator and that's what he seemingly was doing.A first step might be to avoid needless provocation... I mean, what's happened here is horrific, but was what was the victim was trying to protest here worth the cost they paid?
If I walked into an LGBTQ+ bar spouting bible verse about how they're all gonna burn in hell, and didnt expect to have my head caved in, am I not guilty of being a bit naive?
Is the world really meant to be a place where everyone is consistently thinking about what they do and how its viewed by others?Its mental, at the same time, if you knew that drawing someone causes another human to think murder is okay, would you still go ahead and it anyway?
Or would you think of other possible ways to express your position?
A lot of recent time in front of a computer or listening to radicalized speech probably accelerated this person’s descent into madness.Just heard the attacker was only 18 years old, he’s obviously been radicalised by someone..
Yep. It’s curious to see people who marshal their lives through fairy tales & imaginary friends.There you go.
Some absolute fecking idiots living in this world
What’s at the core of this mad act? Just the perpetrator having a bad day?Shocking to hear about. One mad act and many lives ruined.
The criticisms of Islam in this thread are ignorant and witless. Regurgitated banalities.
I don't think my community (Hindus) has anywhere near the the same propagation of violence, all things considered, but over the last 5-7 years, we're definitely moving towards becoming a closet fascist society that favours those from our own religious dispensation and dominates those from others (like Muslims). So I can no longer (not that I ever did) make the claim that "they are the only religion one cant joke about..". You'd be in big trouble if you made jokes here too about my religion, sadly.And it will stay that way until people start questioning it without the god damn PC police coming out to defend the indefensible. I can make a joke about every religion and every major figure in that religion, with the exception of one. As someone who grew up extremely liberal in their view point, it beggars belief that liberals are never criticising the one religion which goes against their views far more than any other.
Bill Maher has been the only liberal who’s been consistent on this.
The incessant wars in the region probably dont helpI don't think my community (Hindus) has anywhere near the the same propagation of violence, all things considered, but over the last 5-7 years, we're definitely moving towards becoming a closet fascist society that favours those from our own religious dispensation and dominates those from others (like Muslims). So I can no longer (not that I ever did) make the claim that "they are the only religion one cant joke about..". You'd be in big trouble if you made jokes here too about my religion, sadly.
However there's no doubt that Islam does have bigger problems than the other regions. My feeling has always been that it's some really really rotten apples that have dragged the whole lot down into ruin.
Can anyone point to some unbiased articles that gives a factual picture of the overall state of the Islamic community/world and how it got to where it has? I'd like to learn more, but without reading agendas and bigotry.
True. And I know that other players have muddled their waters for their own gain/politics. I'd just like to better understand how that lead to radicalisation of groups around the world (not just in the war torn regions). As I don't believe people of any religion are simply bad. That would be absurd. But things like this incident or other brutal acts in the name of religion have to be a by product of an institution or state behaving in the same manner. Maybe the Saudi and other such states? Which encourages behaviour like this from others replicating those values?The incessant wars in the region probably dont help
A comedian is who is causing the idiots to radicalize? Christ, what mental gymnastics to foist blame on such media personalities.Keep it up. Ignorant Idiots like bill maher is exactly what causes people to radicalize . Unless you are willing to analyze the cause behind the symptoms your constant criticism does absolutely nothing.
The second part is the correct stance.Its mental, at the same time, if you knew that drawing someone causes another human to think murder is okay, would you still go ahead and it anyway?
Or would you think of other possible ways to express your position?
Define “liberal.” Do you mean it in the true sense of the word (a quick google will show you what I mean) or are you equating it with “left wing” or “Democrat” as is done in the US?And it will stay that way until people start questioning it without the god damn PC police coming out to defend the indefensible. I can make a joke about every religion and every major figure in that religion, with the exception of one. As someone who grew up extremely liberal in their view point, it beggars belief that liberals are never criticising the one religion which goes against their views far more than any other.
Bill Maher has been the only liberal who’s been consistent on this.
Surely that is not the fault of the victim?A first step might be to avoid needless provocation... I mean, what's happened here is horrific, but was what was the victim was trying to protest here worth the cost they paid?
Agreed.Let's not start blaming the guy at all by saying that he could have avoided it by keeping quiet or whatever, it's entering "Well she was wearing a skimpy dress..." territory.
It’s this line of thinking that’s helping ensure any sort of reform is a million miles away. Muslims worldwide aren’t actively looking to destroy western civilisation, but a vast majority would probably agree with what you said. Condemnations with caveats are no condemnations at all.A first step might be to avoid needless provocation... I mean, what's happened here is horrific, but was what was the victim was trying to protest here worth the cost they paid?
If I walked into an LGBTQ+ bar spouting bible verse about how they're all gonna burn in hell, and didnt expect to have my head caved in, am I not guilty of being a bit naive?
Nail on head. This thread has already been done a million times before so I know exactly how it will go. Still amazes me we actually have people who victim blame in these situations.Let's not start blaming the guy at all by saying that he could have avoided it by keeping quiet or whatever, it's entering "Well she was wearing a skimpy dress..." territory.
It’s wholly unsurprising. The worlds problems wouldn’t exist if each person was capable of thinking rationally and logically.Nail on head. This thread has already been done a million times before so I know exactly how it will go. Still amazes me we actually have people who victim blame in these situations.
People just gotta live with it that there will be things that offend them. Including Blasphemy. There is no proportion of this "offense" to the crime.Sure. He should go to prison, if he wasn't killed. Even better would be for him not to be allowed in to a place where he could be so easily offended in the first place.
If I believed eternal bliss awaited me, may be no limit to what I'd be willing to do to escape this place of suffering and what not..
Thing is you can't really reform scripture that claims to be the undilluted word of god, the highest and the holiest and a religion that claims it is the final religion and revelation. I guess though you can always reform how you want to intepret it and act upon it.When we see incidents like this we're quick to cure the problems (increased security, punishment laws, anti terror act etc) but failed to even try to address the underlying problems. Just like the American shooting, instead of asking why it happens again and again and again they simply install a metal detector, and when it's still happening, they taught the teacher to shoot back. Like a simple disease they just up the med dose instead of saying wait a minute, maybe change your lifestyle so you dont get sick in the first place.
Islamic terorist isnt a new thing since 9/11 but I've yet to see the western world or the islamic world to try to address the situation with a genuinely sincere heart and make a try on a "it's better to prevent than to cure" approach. It's an eye for an eye trading blows and it's only escalating.
The US has a hand on all this mess directly, it's not even indirect anymore. Untill they stop funding terrorists ideology via their bombing or via their supposed middle east buddy program and made that handshake with the UAE, this thing will be happening again and again. Thoughts candles and prayers, shocked, saddened but nothing will change.
And the other part imho is that islam hasnt had a reform since it's first conception. Christianity for all its fault has gone several reform up to their current standard. Flawed it's still but compared to Islam is way more modernized and at least more up to date. Anyone that dared questioning islam would be met with swords, nobody even try anymore. The Christian still burnt and torture witches not that long ago to be fair.
The grim reality is that this would not be the last, there will be more incidents like this. It's a fecked up tangled mess that's not gonna be fixed.
The criticisms of Islam in this thread are entirely valid. Not sure how you can come to any other conclusion. Maybe they’re recycled again and again because there’s some truth in them.No. You seem to have failed to understand a pretty basic comment.
I do think half arsed comments that throw generalisations about are often unhelpful. Particularly by posters who have proven themselves time and again over the last few months to be hugely ignorant of that which they slag off, and careless in their responses.
Not quite sure if this is the kind of thing you’re looking for, but here’s something I wrote on the Cafe - https://www.redcafe.net/threads/religion-whats-the-point.215250/page-287#post-25574991Can anyone point to some unbiased articles that gives a factual picture of the overall state of the Islamic community/world and how it got to where it has? I'd like to learn more, but without reading agendas and bigotry.
Seems like the attacker was shot dead by police. I’m not a fan of police on public killings overall, but I don’t really mind this one somehow.Is anything known about the attacker and exactly how this happened?
Not quite sure if this is the kind of thing you’re looking for, but here’s something I wrote on the Cafe - https://www.redcafe.net/threads/religion-whats-the-point.215250/page-287#post-25574991
It’s could be a tad interesting in my country in fifty days.The world is going down the shitter anyway. I wouldn't like to live on earth in fifty or hundred years, i think bad times are ahead of us. While we are more and more modern on one side due ro technology and knowledge, conflicts and radicalisations are brewing at the same time. Islam is just one of them, not the only one. I see dark to be honest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversyHas anyone seen these caricatures, and what exactly is Muhammad supposed to be doing that is deemed so bad people are willing to cut another humans head off?
