It is more like 'Cheers matey'.
FA to investigate Edinson Cavani | This thread is taking a break
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Pathetic and shameful. Should be banned for it, plain and simple.
This is a crucial part of this discussion. Fair skinned culture languages have all evolved to define white as good and black as bad. (Eg: Why is Jesus and Santa Claus always white etc).
no matter what the Latin cultures think, I find this word offensive, also within a Latin context. if it’s been outlawed in U.K. culture, then people using this word inside U.K. should be sanctioned.
in this case, that sanction needn’t be too harsh, as Cavani can demonstrate that he didn’t know and didn’t intend malice or hurt.
So punishment can be a fine or 1 game ban, and the incident should be used to educate all other foreign language speakers. Globally, we have to raise the next generation to know that using race to distinguish people is unacceptable.
No white text? What makes it pathetic and shameful and under what respect should he be banned for it?
It is why rules around racism or discrimination aren't left to an individual's interpretation. The n word can be used in a thousand of ways which aren't racist whatsoever. There's no space for any term that is remotely racist in the public sphere.
Have they changed the rules since the Suarez vs Evra case to completely remove context?
No. Because I haven't said Cavani shouldn't talk about skin colour. I've said he shouldn't address people in a way that references their skin colour, specifically on social media. Those aren't the same thing.
If I start casually addressing black people on the caf as "blackie" or "little black person", then I'll be doing the same thing. And will quickly be banned, because it would be racist, no matter how affectionate my tone.
I used to date an Argentine girl around that part of SA it is used as a term of endearment. Part of the uproar is just a general ignorance towards the history of words, but I sorta understand. "Negro" is now seen as an offensive word even though it's always been a synonym for black.
That’s how a white person would defend use of the word.
I don’t see the need to use this word in 21st century, given the history of last 500 years and the connotations of that word now we all live in a truly interconnected global Culture.
I hate the world that we live in when the likes of this is considered a big deal
Read the Suarez vs Evra document.
Thats not true. Brexit happened and there arent any consequences for blaming those pesky foreigners / refugees ever since.
That moral high ground has long been conceded.
Everything I accept is up to me, no? On the internet everyone can claim to be everything. "I'm no fan of Trump, but..." Skepticism is very necessary, particularly when people describe themselves.
Whether or not you have to care what I accept is another question.
My understanding though is that they might also have called you negrito in South America if you weren't black? I guess it's maybe less likely but not unheard of?
Within the same language and culture, I agree, but it's not really the same here. I have no idea of the history or connotations of this word in South American culture, so my first thought isn't to apply my direct translation to it.
The Portuguese imported the most slaves out of everyone. Brazil had big issues with racism but tried to deny it. There are pockets of racism everywhere in Latin America. I read that Mexico didn't class black Mexicans as a recognized group.
tis why most people don't ever use literal translations from one to another, word for word. It just doesn't work like that and is fundamental in learning and understanding foreign languages. ito/ita at the end of words is actually a nice thing to say. Say Laurita to a Spanish girl named Laura, and you are being sweet. You have to get away from the mindset of taking foreign words/phrases and doing a literal English translation and then reacting. Its pointless as it doesn't mean the same thing. I get that it's hard to understand, I really do. When I first started learning French and Spanish I used to do the same thing and my teachers kept telling me to stop, as I didn't "sound Spanish" etc
You are not South American. Leave to South American people to speak their language the way they want to.
If he had used the N word in English, then yes, he should have got a long ban. But, he used a different word, in a different context, in a different fecking language.
The only racists in this mess are those who are telling native Speakers how to speak Spanish and which Spanish words they cannot use while they speak Spanish.
Interesting. This is important context.Cavani's been following him for a few years judging by where he (pablofer) is on Cavani's follow list - fair bit down and listed in reverse chronological order so people who he's followed earlier are lower down
The internet is a strange place, especially for a football star. In one instance you are engaging with millions of people from around the world, in another you are chatting with teammates, and in another moment with a friend from your hometown where you are bound to communicate with your natural tongue (normally).
Cavani has to wear many hats, especially as he navigates multiple languages and social groups.
I also wonder, what if he had posted this while in Uruguay on international duty?
Worse. You could get a custodial sentence for your taste in beer
I think more than anything this highlights not just how shockingly inept Brits are at languages, but how a failure to properly teach languages at schools leads to some baffling insularity and hegemonic assumptions about the superiority of English language.
Which is a shame, because I think there's the smatterings of some decent debate threatening to break out (personally, I'd be fascinated to hear South American Spanish speakers talk about the etymology of using 'negrito' as a term of endearment and could well believe that it doesn't have innocent origins as @africanspur was alluding to) which is completely lost in reams and reams of utterly banal posts.
Which is a shame, because I think there's the smatterings of some decent debate threatening to break out (personally, I'd be fascinated to hear South American Spanish speakers talk about the etymology of using 'negrito' as a term of endearment and could well believe that it doesn't have innocent origins as @africanspur was alluding to) which is completely lost in reams and reams of utterly banal posts.
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It's not a big deal. Social Media and forums are even worse than tabloids.
Cavani basically said something that's fine in his country but not fine in the UK (where he works as a public figure). That's it, nothing more.
Don't get upset.
Out of interest, what do you think about the word 'Abd' or 'Slave' being used in Arabic to describe black people? And most particularly, if they used that word, or a transliteration of that word, whilst working in the UK for a major company based there?
100% hit the nail right on the head here.
Do black people say ‘hey white man’ as a term of endearment in return? What is that phrase?
I suspect this term ‘negreto’ originated as a subliminal form of white supremacy, to ensure ‘others’ would always be identified as different, and that could subsequently be abused through discrimination. Else what is the point?
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The word he used has no meaning in the UK
I have no idea about those words or Arabic, so I do not have any opinion on them.
I know though that you cannot just translate words from one language to another. If that was the case, doing automatic translation would have been very easy but Google still cannot crack it.
Sorry to just quote you there was too many to go through. This thread is great
Quite.
Brazil still has huge issues with racism, as do many other countries in that continent. As does North America, as does Europe.
Its totally disingenuous to suggest that South Americans, a people who are mostly originated from Spanish, Portugese and Italian colonisers, are somehow divorced from European racism or the current standards Europeans hold for racism. Or that they are somehow totally clean of the racism and slave trade of the preceding centuries.
There's literal words in some languages that mean a combination of words in another. Some words literally cannot be translated... I was watching a documentary once and there was a Japanese word, can't recall it, but it was basically untranslatable and you had to describe what it meant with a collection of words/sentences in English.
It clearly does though. Rightly or wrongly it has connotations here.
I can agree with you on everything except the ban.
surely in this circumstance even accepting everything else you have said, mandatory education for Cavani on how these things are perceived and dealt with in the UK should be enough given there was no intent or malice? Maybe a public apology and job done move on?
Yeah, this is exactly my point. The South American poster is trying to justify the use of it in the same context as ‘big head’ ‘big nose’ etc - in other words insults.
I'm in no way trying to say or imply that there's no racisms in Latin America, sadly that happens everywhere in the world
but using the word negro, negrito, chino, chinito etc, doesnt mean it is used in a racist way
in fact, when is pretended to be use in a racist manner the word negro should be accompanied by an insult, because by itself has no racist implications
and btw, argentina, as an independent country started in 1816
but in 1813 the argentinians declared slavery abolished for the unborn
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_of_the_Year_XIII
Nope. I won’t leave it to Spanish to define what is and isnt racist inside U.K. Thisnis my country not theirs and I know what the laws are. So I’m perfectly happy telling Spanish speakers what is acceptable inside my country too.
you cannot use language that identifies people based on the colour of their skin. Sooner white people realise they can’t have this privilege anymore the sooner we can move on.
If he doesn't know the person and if he is black then Cavani should not have used it.
But the word should be taken into context.
But the word should be taken into context.
That is a total cop out answer. The word for slave in Arabic is 'Abd'. There are some Arabs who use that exact word to refer to darker skinned people, in particular sub Saharan Africans (strangely, some in Sudan will use it against darker skinned Africans).
They are rarely using it to mean a literal slave and it is not usually meant with particular malice (ie in the same way nigger or paki are) but the connotations and underlying message of the word is clear.
My point is not that languages are easy or universal. It is that just because something is acceptable in one language does not mean a) it is or should be very acceptable in general or b) it remains acceptable in other countries or cultures.
Indeed. Which makes this entire incident fecking stupid. There was no incident here.
For those that say 'but Suarez' the problem there was that Suarez told Evra that 'he won't speak to Negritos', not that he called him 'Negrito'. In the end, FA found Suarez' version less believable than Evra's one, but the problem was not the usage of the word 'Negrito' but the context. Even if he did not use the word, and he would have said in English 'I do not speak to Black people', he still would and should have been banned.
This is going to be nothing more than a warning at best. He was made aware of how in England his comment would be seen as offensive and he deleted it. This isn't going to be like a banned substance test fail - where even if you claim ingorance that you didn't know a supplement contained it, the authorities don't care. Here, any kind of reason applied and they will just tell him to be more aware of what he posts.
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