Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[VP89]

We're discussing whether it's valid to use opponent's fans to judge your current manager. Not before he became your current manager. You don't see the difference?

No I wasn't. I was just discussing what the opinion of Ole was. Someone thought it wasn't necessarily the case that rival fans want him to stay in charge because he would continue keeping us mediocre. I said they did, and referenced examples.

We wanted Klopp before he became Liverpool manager. Then we were laughing out loud at that same guy after he became Liverpool manager. Do you see the point here? How can we trust rival and opponent fans opponent to judge your current manager? They all looking for some banter and a chance to mock you, your manager and your club. So did us. Do you get it now?

I never said to trust the view rival opponents. Although, in the video link I provided the "rival opponents" are generally a lot more balanced in their evaluation than post-banter on an internet forum (like your examples of Klopp here).

 

[FatherWolff]

I don't know the latest news. Shame we are getting so many knocks right now.

Apparently a fully fit squad. Exited.

 

[georgipep]

I don’t need a magic number, it wasn’t my excuse or my narrative. I was disappointed with the start and thought the excuses/narrative were bollocks.

The excuses started after the Arsenal defeat, our 6th league game. And apparently that was the no pre-season effect over because our results have then picked up.
After 6 games when the knives really came out and this excuse followed, United were 15th with 7 points.

I was hoping you were gonna “prove” the excuse was in fact, a valid reason and that I’m a bit rash and clueless @georgipep

The point that we wouldn't be as prepared as other teams that had pre-season, were made even before the season began. I have no idea what are you referring to when saying 'after the Arsenal defeat'. Ole and other managers have publicly said before the season began that it is a risk to player welfare not having a proper pre-season preparation and our fitness levels could not be expected to be on the same level with teams who did have pre-season.

If you don't get that logic, you don't want to check the data and compare with the other 15 teams that were in the same situation as United, I can't help you. Someone who believes and states something despite facts proving otherwise is a very clear indication of an agenda, in my book.

 

[FatherWolff]

Probably one of the most honest answers I've seen here.

Weirdly I was writing in another thread about tactics, that I think Ole and Potter have more in common than people think. Potter doesn't have one style of play he likes us to be dynamic, flexible and able to adapt to whatever is placed in front of us. I think Ole is similar and this is the reason you don't see a consistent style of play, he doesn't want United to be predictable.

The Everton game was apparently one that pleased him the most



If you can adapt, play and score in multiple different ways, you could become a very dangerous team as has been shown quite a few times in 2020.

Easily becoming one of my favourite posters

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I have no idea what are you referring to when saying 'after the Arsenal defeat'.

fecking ell, it’s crystal clear.

After the Arsenal defeat, sat in 15th after 6 games, this thread exploded again with people wanting Ole out.
At that point the reason given as to why these posters were wrong is that we were performing badly due to no pre-season.
You piped in yesterday to argue that the other 15 teams also struggled due to that. I then asked for proof, which you have danced around twice but seem unwilling to actually post the stats that back up the excuse that came after the Arsenal game for us being in 15th after 6 games.
So either show me they struggled in their first 6 league games, as we did, to validate that argument or there was simply no point you jumping in the debate to begin with and you’ve just wasted mine and your time.

 

[Amarsdd]

No I wasn't. I was just discussing what the opinion of Ole was. Someone thought it wasn't necessarily the case that rival fans want him to stay in charge because he would continue keeping us mediocre. I said they did, and referenced examples.

I never said to trust the view rival opponents. Although, in the video link I provided the "rival opponents" are generally a lot more balanced in their evaluation than post-banter on an internet forum (like your examples of Klopp here).

Really? Mate, pick a better example. True Geordie probably hates United more than Sunderland and lets not even start with Lawrence there. Even when United or Ole deserve credit, they can't resist adding backhanded compliments. They are the furthest away from a balanced rival opponent view in terms of United that you can find. Hugh and Rory are the only ones to have a semblance of balance there.

 

[FatherWolff]

fecking ell, it’s crystal clear.

After the Arsenal defeat, sat in 15th after 6 games, this thread exploded again with people wanting Ole out.
At that point the reason given as to why these posters were wrong is that we were performing badly due to no pre-season.
You piped in yesterday to argue that the other 15 teams also struggled due to that. I then asked for proof, which you have danced around twice but seem unwilling to actually post the stats that back up the excuse that came after the Arsenal game for us being in 15th after 6 games.
So either show me they struggled in their first 6 league games, as we did, to validate that argument or there was simply no point you jumping in the debate to begin with and you’ve just wasted mine and your time.

I have also posted against your theory. Not based only on results, but from watching most of them games. It has been very scrappy. Lack of rhythm and tempo. It has been clear as day those teams did suffer. Bayern was the only team playing good, but they fell into inconsistent play to. But I think this will even out through the season. All teams have suffered in one way, and form is temporary. What seems apparent is reading to much into results at early stage would be foolishness. That said. The Arsenal game was the one I was most disappointed in. Still am. But in no way will I go Ole out at this stage. We are getting better, and we are getting more consistent, even though we need more of both.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

The really frustrating thing I read in most Ole-in posters (not you in particular, just happened to read your post) is the belief that Mourinho couldn't built a team and didn't know which area needed improving. Really? Mourinho ? The guy has won major titles in every league he's managed. He won the Champions League with Porto with peanuts. Van Gaal, though I love the guy he was past it and Moyes, well don't get me started with the destroyer of worlds.

Why didn’t Mourinho do it at United though?

 

[VP89]

Really? Mate, pick a better example. True Geordie probably hates United more than Sunderland and lets not even start with Lawrence there. Even when United or Ole deserve credit, they can't resist adding backhanded compliments. They are the furthest away from a balanced rival opponent view in terms of United that you can find. Hugh and Rory are the only ones to have a semblance of balance there.

Point out where in the video there was a bitter view though. At the 6 min 25 mark it doesn't really matter who is making the point, you can't argue they don't really have a case, I agree on Lawrence but Rory is the one that's making the crux of the point here, who you just agreed has balance. Think it's Hugh who makes the point that the expectations of the club dropped for Ole when they were higher for Jose, etc.

They actually make valid points (I do generally agree that not all their videos are balanced though. True Geordie keeps changing his opinions generally and the Liverpool fan (Lawrence?) is exhausting. I generally like the others though. They even have a deluded Arsenal fan so it's realistic!)

 

[rotherham_red]

Really? Mate, pick a better example. True Geordie probably hates United more than Sunderland and lets not even start with Lawrence there. Even when United or Ole deserve credit, they can't resist doing it with some backhanded compliment. They are the furthest away from a balanced rival opponent view in terms of United that you can find. Hugh and Rory are the only ones to have a semblance of balance there.

Agreed. The way they constantly shift the goalposts wrt to Utd is embarrassing.

Tbf, I can't blame them, Fergie literally ruined their childhoods

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Really? Mate, pick a better example. True Geordie probably hates United more than Sunderland and lets not even start with Lawrence there. Even when United or Ole deserve credit, they can't resist adding backhanded compliments. They are the furthest away from a balanced rival opponent view in terms of United that you can find. Hugh and Rory are the only ones to have a semblance of balance there.

We're discussing whether it's valid to use opponent's fans to judge your current manager. Not before he became your current manager. You don't see the difference?

We wanted Klopp before he became Liverpool manager. Then we were laughing out loud at that same guy after he became Liverpool manager. Do you see the point here? How can we trust rival and opponent fans opponent to judge your current manager? They all looking for some banter and a chance to mock you, your manager and your club. So did us. Do you get it now?

I always knew that I wasn’t the only one who said the same words when talking to the guy. Trust me, you are wasting your time. He doesn’t read long post and tends to miss the purpose of the discussion. He also likes to use a random silly example to suit his argument and making it out like it’s a fair example, if you disagree and still use fact to prove your point and making counter argument he will call them bollocks.

 

[VP89]

Agreed. The way they constantly shift the goalposts wrt to Utd is embarrassing.

Tbf, I can't blame them, Fergie literally ruined their childhoods

I think they've been consistent in the crux of their point though, that United should aim better than they have and fans pointing to elements like 3 semi-finals shows that the bar has fallen.

Also what's the point in giving examples of what rival fans say (someone had wanted to clarify this, not me), if every answer will be "they're bitter" or "Fergie ruined their childhoods"?

 

[VP89]

I always knew that I wasn’t the only one who said the same words when talking to the guy. Trust me, you are wasting your time. He doesn’t read long post and tends to miss the purpose of the discussion. He also likes to use a random silly example to suit his argument and making it out like it’s a fair example, if you disagree and still use fact to prove your point and making counter argument he will call them bollocks.

Jog on mate, the feeling is mutual. Your inability to read and inconsistency in evaluating managers means you aren't worth debating with. However, I thought we can be civil and ignore each other's posts. Just allow debates with other posters to continue freely instead of acting like a child on a forum.

 

[Andycoleno9]

What was the point in their trophies though, when their successor had to rip it all up and start again. If I'm understanding you, if we fall off a cliff this year, into disarray but win a cup, solskjaer gets level with LVG? But if we keep improving, let's say finish 3rd and close, with a latter stage CL season, he stays behind him.

For me, this season if he challenges for title (not win it but to be in challenge for it) and win one cup, then yes, despite my opinion about him as a coach, he deserves to stay and continue his reign.
The thing in which i strongly disagree with you; if i understand you, you are saying that Ole needed to buy new players because Lvg and Jose bought dross? Ok, in some part you are correct. Jose did bought some players who he wanted for his style of play and who were good only for him. But lets not pretend that Ole didn't do the same. Maguire, James and AWB are good for this team and style of play but they would not be good for some next manager for example.

Now, we have excellent squad. Fantastic goalkeeper(s), pretty good defence, midfield is loaded with quality and we have excellent attack. I don't accept opinion around here that City and Liverpool are level above regarding squad quality and that 3rd place is maximum what you can do with this team.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Jog on mate, the feeling is mutual. Your inability to read and inconsistency in evaluating managers means you aren't worth debating with. However, I thought we can be civil and ignore each other's posts. Just allow debates with other posters to continue freely instead of acting like a child on a forum.

I didn’t quote you, so please don’t quote me.

Just don't quote me again, you aren't worth any further effort debating with.

Remember this? Exactly. Make up your mind and stick with your words.

 

[OleBoiii]

we have excellent attack.

Unless you count Bruno as an attacker rather than a midfielder: by what metric is our attack excellent?

I can name at least 4 wide forwards that are better than Martial and Rashford in the PL alone. Most of the football world laughed at us when we signed Cavani. He's done well recently, but it's way too early to celebrate this signing. Greenwood is still very unpolished. James is James.

Pool, City and Spurs have a better attack. You could make an argument for Chelsea too. You don't win the league with the 4th or 5th best attack. Not unless the team pulls a Leicester or something crazy like that.

 

[VP89]

I didn’t quote you, so please don’t quote me.



Remember this? Exactly. Make up your mind and stick with your words.

Add to it, don't act like a child and disrespect others unless you have an actual case with the debate at hand. If you are bitter about previous debates, be an adult and get over it. This is an open forum and we can all freely debate and ignore posters we don't want to liaise with. I'm happy to not bother with your posts and allow you to debate your side with others without being a dick about it. You should do the same, and it's really not asking much here.
I'm actually surprised this is something that needs to be communicated to be honest.

 

[lysglimt]

It's not smart to just evaluate a rival just based on a head to head record, obviously.

But it's smart to evaluate a manager based on what other rivals fans think ? I can promise you one thing - in the winter of 1989/1990 - our opponents fans thought exactly the same about Ferguson.

If I was a fan - I would be a bit concerned about how quickly United have turned a team considered their worst in the P.L-era into a team that on paper scares our opponents.

 

[Amarsdd]

Point out where in the video there was a bitter view though. At the 6 min 25 mark it doesn't really matter who is making the point, you can't argue they don't really have a case, I agree on Lawrence but Rory is the one that's making the crux of the point here, who you just agreed has balance. Think it's Hugh who makes the point that the expectations of the club dropped for Ole when they were higher for Jose, etc.

They actually make valid points (I do generally agree that not all their videos are balanced though. True Geordie keeps changing his opinions generally and the Liverpool fan (Lawrence?) is exhausting. I generally like the others though. They even have a deluded Arsenal fan so it's realistic!)

Wait, what? Why are you talking about Hugh's point about dropped expectations or Rory's point about lost semifinals? Hugh is just misconstruing the feelings of those who support Ole and the process as a lowering of expectations. Did you really expect us to win the league last season esp. after the mess of a season we had in 2018/19? If we don't make progress this season then most here will be on Ole and the process. And about semifinals, yes everyone is disappointed with that and everyone wanted Ole and the team to do better.

But, but, wasn't the whole point of you posting the video and then again using that video's content as an argument to say how balanced rival fans want Ole to be at United? I don't see that case here. Esp. coming from the ones who beginning of last season predicted United to finish 5/6th or lower because our squad was shit then failed to give any sort of credit to United or Ole when we finished 3rd, and now were making the point they were making in the video after the first two games in the league, just two freakin games. Just not a good example at all of the point you were arguing.

 

[VP89]

But it's smart to evaluate a manager based on what other rivals fans think ? I can promise you one thing - in the winter of 1989/1990 - our opponents fans thought exactly the same about Ferguson.

If I was a fan - I would be a bit concerned about how quickly United have turned a team considered their worst in the P.L-era into a team that on paper scares our opponents.

No, I don't think that at all! Someone said that rival fans want Ole to stay in charge because they think he's mediocre, another poster disagreed that was the view, and I pasted the video.

I do not think we should look at rival fans generally to judge our own manager, I think we are capable of doing this ourselves.

Wait, what? Why are you talking about Hugh's point about dropped expectations or Rory's point about lost semifinals? Hugh is just misconstruing the feelings of those who support Ole and the process as a lowering of expectations. Did you really expect us to win the league last season esp. after the mess of a season we had in 2018/19? And about semifinals, yes everyone is disappointed with that and everyone wanted Ole and the team to do better.

But, but, wasn't the whole point of you posting the video and then again using that video's content as an argument to say how balanced rival fans want Ole to be at United? I don't see that case here. Esp. coming from the ones who beginning of last season predicted United to finish 5/6th or lower because our squad was shit then failed to give any sort of credit to United or Ole when we finished 3rd, and now were making the point they were making in the video after the first two games in the league, just two freakin games.

I need to caveat I'm not great with the names on this video podcast, as I don't watch it that frequently. I came across this video a while ago and didn't have much problem with what the Chelsea fan (and I think West Ham fan?) said. I.e that pointing to 3 semi finals as a big achievement is irrelevant when looking at Manchester United, and the expectation has dropped. I disagree with the hench guy (assuming that's true geordie) that Ole is just a yes man but I agree with his view that a manager with pedigree can probably do a better job.

I don't think anyone expected a league win, but these guys are pointing to the 66 point total as being mediocre and that a better manager would be capable of better. They round of by saying it's not an Ole or United thing, but a general vibe with ex players leading the club. The Chelsea fan even said Lampard can never do any wrong for them even if they completely bomb. So their view was balanced in that sense, that it's a fallacy of sympathising with an ex player that can skew a perspective, which I think is fair enough.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I have also posted against your theory. Not based only on results, but from watching most of them games. It has been very scrappy. Lack of rhythm and tempo. It has been clear as day those teams did suffer. Bayern was the only team playing good, but they fell into inconsistent play to. But I think this will even out through the season. All teams have suffered in one way, and form is temporary. What seems apparent is reading to much into results at early stage would be foolishness. That said. The Arsenal game was the one I was most disappointed in. Still am. But in no way will I go Ole out at this stage. We are getting better, and we are getting more consistent, even though we need more of both.

@FatherWolff... I have no theory. When are some of you gonna understand this? The theory was for those backing the team's crap start to the league season.

Now admittedly, I thought it was bollocks on 3 grounds, none of them based on actually evidence of other side's having "rocky starts" as @Tom Cato put it:

a) it was eerily similar to last seasons start, where bizarre decisions like James being played vs. Palace and Chelsea were made. (last year it was Lingard or Andreas)
b) we had no problems in Europe with our "lack of pre-season".
and c) I didn't recall seeing other sides that played European football in August hanging around 15th after 6 games.

So now the baby is sleeping, let's investigate Tom's claim from yesterday, that @georgipep sought to prove:

Every team that lacked a proper pre-season had the same rocky start to the season. "plenty" of teams didn't play in *Europe in mid-August* (*edited to accurately reflect the facts). This is a peculiar re-writing of history.

Claim 1: "Plenty".
Retort: 16 teams played in Europe in mid-August.

Claim 2: Every team that lacked a proper pre-season had the same rocky start to the season.
Retort:
United's rocky league start was 6 games long, since then we appear past this. We can all surely agree on this right? So did all those other 15 teams really have "the same rocky start to the season"?

The answer is that whilst some certainly had a less than average start, United were joint bottom of the pile, hence why some posters were frustrated and upset at the shit start for a second year running. Pre-season or no pre-season.

Club	League games	League Points
Bayern	6	15
Leipzig	6	14
Atletico	6	14
Atalanta	6	12
PSG	6	12
Leverkuzen	6	12
Inter	6	11
Man City	6	11
Shakhtar	6	10
Wolves	6	10
Barca	6	8
Manchester United	6	7
Sevilla	6	7
Basel	6	7
Copenhagen	6	7
Lyon	6	7

So how much weight does the pre-season argument hold? It's at best inconclusive, it may have had an effect but we clearly could and should have done better. But let's hope it was the case and that our good form of the past 3 games continues....

as I always say in this Ole debate, whilst I sometimes may have been rash to judge (due to worrying that we're giving someone unqualified too much time), I desperately want Ole to succeed and love watching us win games under him.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Add to it, don't act like a child and disrespect others unless you have an actual case with the debate at hand. If you are bitter about previous debates, be an adult and get over it. This is an open forum and we can all freely debate and ignore posters we don't want to liaise with. I'm happy to not bother with your posts and allow you to debate your side with others without being a dick about it. You should do the same, and it's really not asking much here.
I'm actually surprised this is something that needs to be communicated to be honest.

I know it’s hard to accept something you don’t like despite of it being the truth but comment you don’t like isn’t always mean to be a childish and disrespectful comment.

Honestly, don't quote me ever again. You talk so much rubbish and clearly can't even read posts.


Just don't quote me again, you aren't worth any further effort debating with.

Remember this? Exactly. Make up your mind.

So please don’t quote me. I even properly asking in a respectful way with ’’please’’.

 

[Judge Red]

And they say Brexit is bad for the country.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[georgipep]

fecking ell, it’s crystal clear.

After the Arsenal defeat, sat in 15th after 6 games, this thread exploded again with people wanting Ole out.
At that point the reason given as to why these posters were wrong is that we were performing badly due to no pre-season.
You piped in yesterday to argue that the other 15 teams also struggled due to that. I then asked for proof, which you have danced around twice but seem unwilling to actually post the stats that back up the excuse that came after the Arsenal game for us being in 15th after 6 games.
So either show me they struggled in their first 6 league games, as we did, to validate that argument or there was simply no point you jumping in the debate to begin with and you’ve just wasted mine and your time.

So, as you said it yourself, people who want Ole out exploded in this thread after that game, so that is purely arbitrary by itself.

Second, you do realize 6 league games does not mean the same level for each of the 16 involved teams? Neither in the actual date when games were played, nor in the intensity of football played since the European Competitions QFs. I've used more like-for-like comparisons such as first 10 games or first 6 games (in all competitions) because that is what is important for fitness levels, obviously.

That's my last exchange on the topic with you. It's perfectly clear what your agenda is, you don't care that Ole has 67% win rate this season (56% in the league). You cling to an arbitrary point about the Arsenal loss. Cool. You do you.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

And they say Brexit is bad for the country.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

feck me little Britain.

 

[VP89]

I know it’s hard to accept something you don’t like despite of it being the truth but comment you don’t like isn’t always mean to be a childish and disrespectful comment.

It's not the truth. Your view was, with respect, a pile of wank which looked at different times of different seasons to suit a narrative. Noting you were too limited in actually comprehending this, I was the bigger man and said in my own words, lets stay out of each others way.

Remember this? Exactly. Make up your mind.

So please don’t quote me. I even properly asking in a respectful way with ’’please’’.

Now, clearly you are only capable of literal interpretation rather than actually having common sense to know that should extend to not chatting shit in forums about one another. So I will now, literally advise you, to stop chatting shit about me (as I refrained about you) and allow debates to flow freely. If you can do this, I shouldn't need to quote you again and you shouldn't need to quote me? Good? Great.

 

[Tarrou]

this needs to be settled with a duel

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

You cling to an arbitrary point about the Arsenal loss. Cool. You do you.

I don't care about the Arsenal loss and I'm delighted we're past it (I agree with you that we're now doing well and that Ole's win rate is more than acceptable now), you just don't seem to comprehend that the Arsenal defeat left us in 15th on 7 points after 6 games and that lots of posters were extremely disappointed AT THAT POINT of the season. It was at that point people like Tom and yourself blamed it on having no pre-season and that led to Tom claiming all the other sides with no pre-season had the same rocky start.

But based on that table, the lack of pre-season argument appears at best, ambiguous does it not? As an excuse for doing worse than average, absolutely, there's an argument to be had.

You lack any comprehension of the debate mate. And yes, I do realise that we may have had much harder games than others, absolutely.

And yeah, this will be my last post debating it with you also. You're so desperately sticking to your point that pre-season was the reason we were shit, but also the reason we're actually now doing well because "10 games", it actually makes no real sense if you think about it.

1. Were we doing shit after 6 games due to no pre-season
or...
2. Are we doing pretty well after 9 games and potentially incredibly well after 10 games due to no pre-season?

I don't think you even know your stance yourself as you've gotten so wrapped up in your own argument and desperation to prove "something" about pre-season but you don't quite know what it is.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

For me, this season if he challenges for title (not win it but to be in challenge for it) and win one cup, then yes, despite my opinion about him as a coach, he deserves to stay and continue his reign.
The thing in which i strongly disagree with you; if i understand you, you are saying that Ole needed to buy new players because Lvg and Jose bought dross? Ok, in some part you are correct. Jose did bought some players who he wanted for his style of play and who were good only for him. But lets not pretend that Ole didn't do the same. Maguire, James and AWB are good for this team and style of play but they would not be good for some next manager for example.

Now, we have excellent squad. Fantastic goalkeeper(s), pretty good defence, midfield is loaded with quality and we have excellent attack. I don't accept opinion around here that City and Liverpool are level above regarding squad quality and that 3rd place is maximum what you can do with this team.

You made two very bold claim, one is not true while the other one is debatable or not proven yet.

If those players that Jose brought in were only good for him why they performed worse than some of our last season players? He spent 360m on his players and one of his best one, 80m Lukaku didn’t even score more league goals per season than either last season Rashford or Martial.

Whether Ole’s signings will not be good for next manager is debatable with no evidence to prove it. It doesn’t matter anyway if the manager can turn them into good to make the team succeed.

 

[cyberman]

@FatherWolff... I have no theory. When are some of you gonna understand this? The theory was for those backing the team's crap start to the league season.

Now admittedly, I thought it was bollocks on 3 grounds, none of them based on actually evidence of other side's having "rocky starts" as @Tom Cato put it:

a) it was eerily similar to last seasons start, where bizarre decisions like James being played vs. Palace and Chelsea were made. (last year it was Lingard or Andreas)
b) we had no problems in Europe with our "lack of pre-season".
and c) I didn't recall seeing other sides that played European football in August hanging around 15th after 6 games.

So now the baby is sleeping, let's investigate Tom's claim from yesterday, that @georgipep sought to prove:



Claim 1: "Plenty".
Retort: 16 teams played in Europe in mid-August.

Claim 2: Every team that lacked a proper pre-season had the same rocky start to the season.
Retort:
United's rocky league start was 6 games long, since then we appear past this. We can all surely agree on this right? So did all those other 15 teams really have "the same rocky start to the season"?

The answer is that whilst some certainly had a less than average start, United were joint bottom of the pile, hence why some posters were frustrated and upset at the shit start for a second year running. Pre-season or no pre-season.

Club	League games	League Points
Bayern	6	15
Leipzig	6	14
Atletico	6	14
Atalanta	6	12
PSG	6	12
Leverkuzen	6	12
Inter	6	11
Man City	6	11
Shakhtar	6	10
Wolves	6	10
Barca	6	8
Manchester United	6	7
Sevilla	6	7
Basel	6	7
Copenhagen	6	7
Lyon	6	7

So how much weight does the pre-season argument hold? It's at best inconclusive, it may have had an effect but we clearly could and should have done better. But let's hope it was the case and that our good form of the past 3 games continues....

as I always say in this Ole debate, whilst I sometimes may have been rash to judge (due to worrying that we're giving someone unqualified too much time), I desperately want Ole to succeed and love watching us win games under him.

Points totals doesnt mean much. Nearly all of those teams performances are tiers below what they were last season. Bayerns performances have dropped off a cliff over the last 3 weeks.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

It's not the truth. Your view was, with respect, a pile of wank which looked at different times of different seasons to suit a narrative. Noting you were too limited in actually comprehending this, I was the bigger man and said in my own words, lets stay out of each others way.

Now, clearly you are only capable of literal interpretation rather than actually having common sense to know that should extend to not chatting shit in forums about one another. So I will now, literally advise you, to stop chatting shit about me (as I refrained about you) and allow debates to flow freely. If you can do this, I shouldn't need to quote you again and you shouldn't need to quote me? Good? Great.

The truth is not wank and not chat shit but if the truth hurts you then you can always put me ignore. It’s there for purpose so please don’t quote me again.

Honestly, don't quote me ever again. You talk so much rubbish and clearly can't even read posts.


Just don't quote me again, you aren't worth any further effort debating with.

Remember this? Exactly. Make up your mind.

 

[Striker10]

Even in a title winning season, playing well 9/10 is the exception rather then the rule.

 

[Leftback99]

I think the pre season argument was valid before the first international break (3 games Palace). Less so after that. I don't remember it being mentioned here as a reason for the Arsenal defeat but I'm probably wrong.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Points totals doesnt mean much. Nearly all of those teams performances are tiers below what they were last season. Bayerns performances have dropped off a cliff over the last 3 weeks.

Hence why I posted:

So how much weight does the pre-season argument hold? It's at best inconclusive, it may have had an effect but we clearly could and should have done better.

And:

But based on that table, the lack of pre-season argument appears at best, ambiguous does it not? As an excuse for doing worse than average, absolutely, there's an argument to be had.

Let me phrase this better:

• Lack of pre-season was no excuse for having only 7 points after 6 games. An excuse for performing below usual standards, yeah I'll buy that.

• If we beat WHU and posters want to argue that "we're doing incredibly well after 10 games, despite having no real pre-season", there is absolutely zero doubt that they are correct and that plenty of us jumped the gun. Hell, I'll admit to jumping the gun even if we don't beat WHU. The win percentage posted by George is good enough.

 

[MattyLT]

The truth is not wank and not chat shit but if the truth hurts you then you can always put me ignore. It’s there for purpose so please don’t quote me again.



Remember this? Exactly. Make up your mind.

I have no idea what your original aruments have been about, but agree 100% with the other poster's assessment of your behavior here. You butted in on someone else's conversation - not to add anything to the debate, only to provide a character assasination behind someone else's back (not even quoting the person you were talking smack about, probably hoping he wouldn't read it). But I read it, and though you came off like a 13 year old girl in the schoolyard. And quite frankly, the other poster did you a favor by pointing it out to you in a friendlier manner than you deserved. So you should be thankful for that, take it to heart and learn from it. But you don't, so now I'm pointing it out to you as well. Be a man.

 

[rotherham_red]

I think they've been consistent in the crux of their point though, that United should aim better than they have and fans pointing to elements like 3 semi-finals shows that the bar has fallen.

Also what's the point in giving examples of what rival fans say (someone had wanted to clarify this, not me), if every answer will be "they're bitter" or "Fergie ruined their childhoods"?

That fall precipitated Ole. It's not because of Ole that it has occurred. We were on our knees when he came in, and it genuinely looked and felt like the club was breaking apart at the seams. I was there at every game, home and away, so I have a good grasp of the fan feeling at the time as well. I'd never seen the atmosphere be as toxic as it was during the latter stages of Jose. Never.

What we are doing now, is building ourselves back up but it will take time. He's improved a lot of the players he's inherited, which predominantly wasn't the case with LvG and Jose (and the less said about Moyes the better), he's also been the first post-SAF manager who is actually doing a rebuild and not just tacking on his players to an already bloated squad. All of these measures take time, and they take even longer when you have one of the youngest squads and teams in the league and when you have to deal with a board like ours and Covid on top of everything else.

The players are also still very early in their development. There will be inconsistency issues, which is what we're dealing with right now but the stats bear it out that we're improving on this front also. The window for leeway on this front however, is closing, and by the end of this season and the start of next, it needs to be accomplished. Though, that is also dependent on Ole being given the players that he needs, and for two consecutive summers now, he's not really been given all that he's asked for and needed. The first summer, we went without a striker to replace Lukaku and a proper midfield presence for the first 6 months. The second summer, needs no mention (Sancho, Grealish and a CB + LB were sought - only one of these came in).

With that in mind, Ole did a tremendous job last year and essentially condensed two seasons' worth of transition into one. The danger this season is that the progress might be stalled, but it seems this Covid season is going to be a bit of a leveller for every team. However, if he can get 4th or better this season, then he deserves to see out the next season as well (provided we aren't totally cut adrift by next Christmas) but more importantly, is finally given the players he wants and needs. So that means a new DM, a new CB, a new RW (if Diallo still needs to settle) and then if funds allow, a new ST. All of these guys need to be starters also.

None of the above was ever given as a counter to the points raised in the video. A proper balanced debate, would.

It's not about those guys being opposition fans, it's that the likes of TG, Rory, Laurence are prone to hyperbole and sensationalism (it's their raison detre after all), and they're more than a little clueless (just look at this weekend just gone's show where Rory was saying that Kane has revolutionised CF play because he does more than just score goals - describing the archetypal false 9, something which has been common parlance for at least a decade and in the modern era, was first utilised by Spalletti at Roma with Totti in 2007, and then SAF briefly at Utd with Saha and most famously Barca with Messi). For example, in that video we have Spencer FC saying something along the lines that no PL team would hire Ole, and that they are nailed on for midtable. Yet, in his preseason predictions, he actually had us down for 3rd. Which just shows why I can't take these clowns seriously.

The only person on the Kick Off I actually rate and respect is Hugh, who is legit neutral on everything, even his own club. The Kick Off as a show, is better when McKola is on as at least he provides some of that balance to counteract the BS that comes from the others (even if he himself isn't any great shakes on the football knowledge side of things), but generally speaking the people they have on the show don't really know their stuff.

 

[cyberman]

Hence why I posted:



And:



Let me phrase this better:

• Lack of pre-season was no excuse for having only 7 points after 6 games. An excuse for performing below usual standards, yeah I'll buy that.

• If we beat WHU and posters want to argue that "we're doing incredibly well after 10 games, despite having no real pre-season", there is absolutely zero doubt that they are correct and that plenty of us jumped the gun. Hell, I'll admit to jumping the gun even if we don't beat WHU. The win percentage posted by George is good enough.

I think we should have done better yes but the fact is our fitness was shocking back then and did hold us back. When we did get games under our belt our performances picked up, just as predicted.
Just go back and watch the games, we were getting pressed and outrun by fecking Palace and Brigton.
Are we above criticism for those games? No, of course not. We should never have played our first 11 in the EL after getting top 4 and thats where I think Ole lost the lack of fitness excuse. The fact we would have had another game to play if we beat Sevilla and lose yet another week of rest is mind boggingly stupid.
Thats where the pressure should have came from. The criticism he got was fair but it came from the wrong angle.

 

[georgipep]

I don't care about the Arsenal loss and I'm delighted we're past it (I agree with you that we're now doing well and that Ole's win rate is more than acceptable now), you just don't seem to comprehend that the Arsenal defeat left us in 15th on 7 points after 6 games and that lots of posters were extremely disappointed AT THAT POINT of the season. It was at that point people like Tom and yourself blamed it on having no pre-season and that led to Tom claiming all the other sides with no pre-season had the same rocky start.

But based on that table, the lack of pre-season argument appears at best, ambiguous does it not? As an excuse for doing worse than average, absolutely, there's an argument to be had.

You lack any comprehension of the debate mate. And yes, I do realise that we may have had much harder games than others, absolutely.

And yeah, this will be my last post debating it with you also. You're so desperately sticking to your point that pre-season was the reason we were shit, but also the reason we're actually now doing well because "10 games", it actually makes no real sense if you think about it.

1. Were we doing shit after 6 games due to no pre-season or...
2. Are we doing pretty well after 10 games due to no pre-season?

I don't think you even know your stance yourself as you've gotten so wrapped up in your own argument and desperation to prove "something" about pre-season but you don't quite know what it is.

Since you continue with this, I'll spell it out step by step.

Teams that didn't have pre-season had to use tired players who played through long 19/20 season ending with the European Competition final stages. To conclude that this had an impact on our start we are looking at all 16 clubs that participated in both CL and LE QFs. My first attempt was to use the first 10 games of all clubs in scope because it will show a similar amount of time and games for the clubs to be on a relatively comparable fitness/game-preparation level.

As you INSIST on the Arsenal game, I thought it was obvious (but apparently isn't), that game is the 10th from our first 10 games.
If you do not believe me, here are our first 10 games:
Palace at home - LOSS
Luton away - WIN
Brighton away - WIN
Brighton away - WIN
Tottenham at home - LOSS
Newcastle away - WIN
PSG away - WIN
Chelsea at home - DRAW
Leipzig at home - WIN
Arsenal at home - LOSS

If you remember my table with the first 10 games, we had 6 wins, 1 draw and 3 losses. Count them if you like.

Again, if you weren't paying attention, the reason I used the first 10 games in all competitions, and not the first 6 league games, was because the 16 clubs in the comparison had different starts in terms of competitions they participate and thus their 6th league game does not come at the same time or in the same stage of their fitness/game preparation regimes. I thought using the first 10 games overall is a much better metric to compare them.

I'm getting very tired of explaining this and it feels that this post is the ELI5 (Explain Like I'm 5) version of it. I hope you understand it.

To conclude, I will answer your two questions with a single sentence: Yes, we had a shit start due to no pre-season and yes, we're doing quite well in comparison to the other 15 clubs in the same situation as us. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I have no idea what your original aruments have been about, but agree 100% with the other poster's assessment of your behavior here. You butted in on someone else's conversation - not to add anything to the debate, only to provide a character assasination behind someone else's back (not even quoting the person you were talking smack about, probably hoping he wouldn't read it). But I read it, and though you came off like a 13 year old girl in the schoolyard. And quite frankly, the other poster did you a favor by pointing it out to you in a friendlier manner than you deserved. So you should be thankful for that, take it to heart and learn from it. But you don't, so now I'm pointing it out to you as well. Be a man.

If I add anything to debate will change his opinion?

My original post was exactly related to what my view on his post which exactly the same what the other two think and I’m warning them not to waste time based on what I have experienced.

 

[VP89]

I have no idea what your original aruments have been about, but agree 100% with the other poster's assessment of your behavior here. You butted in on someone else's conversation - not to add anything to the debate, only to provide a character assasination behind someone else's back (not even quoting the person you were talking smack about, probably hoping he wouldn't read it). But I read it, and though you came off like a 13 year old girl in the schoolyard. And quite frankly, the other poster did you a favor by pointing it out to you in a friendlier manner than you deserved. So you should be thankful for that, take it to heart and learn from it. But you don't, so now I'm pointing it out to you as well. Be a man.

Much appreciated. Posters are capable of making their own minds up independently without having others intrude and act like a child.