Pretty much this. I think the board must feel the same too. Top 4 is a much better ruler of progress rather than CL
If you're Ole in, how much time will you give him?
- Thread starter horsechoker
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We should bid him farewell now because this crappy defending is eventually going to hurt us in the league
The question is, are we really in the right direction? Does it need to be sour before he goes? Ole does not look like he will instigate anything being a yes man. At least Mou had the balls to come up the club. Sure we suffer along as he does this. (By the way the man just wants to leave with his full contractual pay!). Van Gaal did not make things sour, we fans soured it ourselves when we demanded swashbuckling football when all he could manage was steady the ship, while juggling the unhappy mercenarial talents of Falcao, Di Maria, etc. Yes, he put us to sleep but he was the one not given time.
We've backed Ole fine actually, we got Maguire, AWB in. Both contributed massively to our undoing (Leipzig, Istanbul, Tottenham just to name a few examples).
I'd give Ole until the same time as we take to identify and sign the new manager. His time is up ever since it is clear we are only reliant on Bruno, with no plan B and with such horrific defending organisation. His time is also up when rival teams no longer fear us but relish a visit to Old Trafford.
I report brute facts, and I am accused of padding the figures. Goodness me!
So how much more time are you saying we should give him because unsure from that post
We have a history of giving time until 1) Top 4 is not attainable 2) Severe manager vs squad issues arises. We are close to neither right now .
After a rocky start , we've made good inroads in the league and on course for top 4. It is sensible to wait a little bit more to see if we get the league momentum going and pick up a league/fa cup along the way if possible.
All in all i think the club will wait to see where we end up before making a managerial decision.
We should but we won't. Best to adjust your expectations to the club's modus operandi of giving managers a long rope. With Ole it's just a matter of waiting for him to hang himself with that rope. There's no hiding incompetence at this level. Look how we made top 4 and ended back in the europa league in only a couple months or how we lost 3 semifinals in the middle of a hotstreak. He just needs to stay here long enough to make it apparent to anyone still holding out hope for him to become a United manager overnight that it's not going to happen
Well we know number 2 won't happen because he won't say boo to a goose in regards to our board.
Surely the top 4 thing won't apply this time due to the severe financial losses suffered this year.
You started this whole conversation by asking when we should start demanding results and stating that you meant more than top four. Now you say that you aren't talking about winning titles but just challenging for titles. So do you consider challenging for titles a "result"? Strange understanding if so. Letting that stand for now, the season is still fairly young, and we are within touch of the top of the table. By your own standard, shouldn't we at least give Ole a little more time this year to see if we can stay near the top. If we somehow did, would you say that's progress?
P.S. I completely disagree with your two year expectation. So we might as well stop arguing round and round on that as neither of us is likely to budge.
Yes challenging for titles, as City and Liverpool do. They challenge, they cant warrant titles but they end up either 1st or a close 2nd thats very different from ending top 4 and being out of the title race since december.
We have give him time, two years now. Its lunacy to expect him to radically change at this point.
Like I said how much time must we wait? Why keep wasting it.
Not anything against you brother but the fact that there are plenty like you who are ok with this kind of mediocrity is what allows these situations to be sustainable.
Yeah the accepting of mediocrity is why Woody can rub his hands together safe in the knowledge he hasn't got to make a drastic decision
A few more bottled semis or group stage games and we are good to go. He simply hasn't shown the required tactical nous yet and I'd be surprised if anything changes.
Ah yes, people like me are just content with mediocrity. That's our position. We have nothing but low standards, maybe no standards at all. We are the reason the club is in the toilet.
No really, I think we have the same end goal. We just have very different approaches on how to get there. I could just as easily say the constant changing of managers every few years is what is allowing our situation (coming well short of challenging) to be sustainable. Probably, there is something to learn from both of our positions. One of the hardest aspects of sports management is finding the balance between giving a player or manager enough time to get it right and recognizing when it will never work. I think you don't have enough patience. You think I have too much. Hopefully we have given each other something to think about even if we couldn't change one another's minds.
Enjoyed the banter, but we aren't getting anywhere really. You can have the last word if you want.
End of contract barring something catastrophic or Ole losing the dressing room. Last season people were moaning about Manchester United being too defensive, but we were organized and conceded very few goals, having the third best defense in the league. Now we're transitioning to a more attacking style with no preseason and are of course a mess, yet it's still damn entertaining. Even when putting on a disaster, the team is giving everything its got to make things happen till the final whistle.
I expect things to improve under Ole in part because the players clearly believe it. Maybe it'll take a full preseason to get consistency given how many different things they're trying to keep players fresh and the fact that Ole's Manchester United are currently an incomplete team that takes a lot of risks in possession. But letting Ole see out three full seasons before assessing where we are as a club is fair.
I expect things to improve under Ole in part because the players clearly believe it. Maybe it'll take a full preseason to get consistency given how many different things they're trying to keep players fresh and the fact that Ole's Manchester United are currently an incomplete team that takes a lot of risks in possession. But letting Ole see out three full seasons before assessing where we are as a club is fair.
I'd say his time is already up. Just give him enough time for us to conduct the search for a new manager.
The problem here is somehow we believe we should give him to the end of the season before deciding. Well, last season we gave him to the end of the season and he brought us out / up completely covered in poop. The risk of next season being exactly the same is supremely high. Even if we somehow turn around, it will not help Maguire and Co defend better. Look at the back four one more time, and tell me if it strikes fear into enemies OR strikes a fan with confidence. Do you see Ole doing anything to turn this around? No, we are still scratching our heads, coming up with one weird excuse after another.
Even if we do end up top 4 this season, why should that be a reason for him to stay? He himself promised a challenge for the title THIS season.
The only reason he should stay is if we sustain a league challenge. It looks FAR FROM IT.
What I don't agree however is to sack him instantly, because that would disastrously end our season. We may well drop out of top 6 if McKenna, Phelan and Carrick take over. It'd be like watching Minions the movie. So we must have him to bring us steadily in top 4, but still let him go because we need a league challenge instead. He may turn us around play wise but that won't be a must. But, if we get to the end of the season before deciding to a new manager, it will be too damn late. He must not be given just 2 months to see who's in and who's out and take another year to identify his targets. The search starts now so that the club has time to vet the candidate well. If he is identified he can well be announced. Ole will do a good job until the end of the season, at least he loves the club that much.
With a new manager and mandate, hopefully one that does not say we retain AWB, MAguire and Lindelof, let him continue to rebuild our defense, improve the wing play, get a proper No.9 up and running, replace De Gea, over 2-4 transfer windows.
We seem to be looking real good in the prem now, even after a shaky start with no pre-season.
I see no reason not to give him the season and evaluate in the spring/summer.
If we at the end of April are looking to at least finish comfortably in top4 then I'd extend his contract by another 2 years (so 3 in total). So that the club and manager can prepare for the summer window and beyond. Not to mention giving targets the idea of stability of who will be the manager for the foreseaable future if they are to consider coming here. The worst thing we can do is to go into the summer window without having decided on who we intend the manager to be beyond next season.
I see no reason not to give him the season and evaluate in the spring/summer.
If we at the end of April are looking to at least finish comfortably in top4 then I'd extend his contract by another 2 years (so 3 in total). So that the club and manager can prepare for the summer window and beyond. Not to mention giving targets the idea of stability of who will be the manager for the foreseaable future if they are to consider coming here. The worst thing we can do is to go into the summer window without having decided on who we intend the manager to be beyond next season.
Extend his contract are you kidding
Saturday around 19:30
The football isn't uninspiring. Why do people keep saying this? We look like a threat in every game we play. Made loads of chances last night too. Our goals per game is very good. Our chance creation is also fine.
It's the defending that's letting us down. That's the bit that's uninspiring.
As disturbing as some of his decisions are, he deserves at least until the end of this season, and objectively, three full years as in the above post.
We all need to always drill it in into our heads to remember that he's working under incredibly poor upper management.
Yes, it's possible that a Nagelsmann or Rose or Klopp could turn this exact squad into world-beaters while largely ignoring/negating Woodplop.
But at the same time, think of any time you've had to row or swim against the current, or drive a getaway car with two shredded tires, or scale a rock face with a goat draped over your shoulders. That's what working under Woodward can be like.
Did you read the condition? We have to be challenging or look to finish top 4 comfortably.
Am I happy with going out of the UCL? No, not at all. But overall I feel positive about where we are heading. We screwed up in Istanbul, but we had those games even under SAF.
Against PSG we could have easily won on another day.
Against Leipzig I don't understand how De Gea could be so asleep, and the defenders seem unable to know in what areas to defend early game. On the second goal we were just looking at the ball when we should have cleared it out to a corner.
Leipzig were much more clinical than us, we had several chances first half that should have gone in. Greenwood's especially. Leipzig had several strikers on the bench, we had Ighalo. We were unlucky to be missing both our main strikers due to small injuries and needing them to be ready for the derby on Saturday. We had a good amount of chances but we couldn't finish them. It could be down to experience.
In the league we have a good winrate now, and if we win the game in hand we are now 2 points off 1st, not bad atter that shaky start.
So yes, I like where we are heading as a club. I don't see any other manager I think would do a better job with this current squad. It needs continued experience and a few addons (like another CB which was reported early this year to be a goal for summer 2021).
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Good God
That’s fair enough but my worry, and it’s a genuine worry now, is how much damage could be done by leaving him in charge for the remainder of the season.
Changed opinion after last night.
Keep him until the end of the season and then re evaluate.
If Ole goes, it needs to be part of a wider "revolution".
Pochettino coming in (or anyone else) arriving in these conditions with Woodward et al still involved as they are, doesn't really anything after an initial upturn in form and performances.
Keep him until the end of the season and then re evaluate.
If Ole goes, it needs to be part of a wider "revolution".
Pochettino coming in (or anyone else) arriving in these conditions with Woodward et al still involved as they are, doesn't really anything after an initial upturn in form and performances.
Had to go now. Why wait for us to not make to 4
Oles put together a good team, I still believe that even after some of the individual horror performances last but he is unable to get the best out of them, that much is unarguably 100% clear.
My worry is he’ll lose the dressing room and we go into a downward spiral. I know he’s now everyone’s first choice but there is no way that we wouldn’t improve with Poch in charge. Still my preferred choice to take over.
My worry is he’ll lose the dressing room and we go into a downward spiral. I know he’s now everyone’s first choice but there is no way that we wouldn’t improve with Poch in charge. Still my preferred choice to take over.
How much time to do what? Winning the title is phenomenally difficult. I’d now like to see a heavily improved points total from last year and some more good recruitment in January. Most importantly I like his signings and the squad is constantly getting better.
There is no basis for saying this team should challenge for the title. There is more to do in recruiting at midfield, centre forward, and, I increasingly accept, centre back.
There is no basis for saying this team should challenge for the title. There is more to do in recruiting at midfield, centre forward, and, I increasingly accept, centre back.
And you still feel Ole can do this?
You’re right in that he shouldn’t be ultimately judged on the title but he should be judged on our football. Largely it is dreadful.
I'd start changes right now. Rangnick is available so we should bring him in as DOF while Mitchell should be brought back to Manchester as head of recruitment. Meanwhile we need experienced coaches at this club irrespective of whether Ole manages to turn things around or not. United should have a look at the likes of Dolcetti and Trombetta both of whom were key in Allegri's coaching staff. God knows how much we need someone who actually understand how to set up a defence. Mckenna and Carrick can return to the U18s if they want or be shown the door.
If Ole hates it then he'll resign on his own. If he's smart then he'll accept all the help he can get from people who actually have experience in managing/coaching at decent clubs. Who knows? Maybe that added help might turn him into a MUQ manager.
If Ole hates it then he'll resign on his own. If he's smart then he'll accept all the help he can get from people who actually have experience in managing/coaching at decent clubs. Who knows? Maybe that added help might turn him into a MUQ manager.
Even if Ole out want to change the manager now, it's too late isn't it. We might should just stick with him. When I chose Ole in since 2019 because I see the progress he's been making. To me, we stick with the manager until we don't see progress. The only thing to find out is by end of the season. If we finish in top 4 with similar point and still way far off from Liverpool, I would say we should move on since it won't be called progress from last season.
Getting knocked out of CL group in a hell's group isn't justified enough to see the progress from last season since last season we weren't even in it.
Getting knocked out of CL group in a hell's group isn't justified enough to see the progress from last season since last season we weren't even in it.
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This. I cant remember last time i was this gutted. Could barely sleep. No doubt we bottled it when we had such a golden chance to qualify, but we missed out on qualifying by the narrowest of margins from a tough group so that alone is not a sackable offense.
Lets see where we are at the end of the season. If we end up outside the top 4 then he should probably go. As long as there is tangible progress in results and performances than i see no reason to sack him. The big argument his critics bring to the board is "a top coach would have done x,y,z", to which i would say
1. You dont know that and you cant prove it
2. LvG and Jose were by all intents and purposes "top coaches" and that did not turn out too great.
3. "Poch is going to win us the league". Poch won nothing with Spurs in 5 years, while our ex manager currently have them top of the table and might very well win the league with them
Ole is by no means perfect and hes made some real blunders in his time here. Hes still not nearly as bad as the "individual brilliance" crowd tries to portray him though. Some of them would not be able to praise him even if he pulled on a shirt himself and scored a hatrick. Also all this lamenting about coaching is pretty tiresome. None of us has a fecking clue about what goes on at Carrington and i bet the ones shouting the loudest about this has not even coached at a U7's level
Postives:
1. Very good transfer record compared to his predecessors
2. Our attacking play is the best its been since Fergie. And no, its not all "individual brilliance". Pretty much all of these players have played under top class coaches before and if all we did was fecking around in training then they would have ousted Ole about 1,5 years ago.
3. We never give up. Even yesterday when going 3-0 down we kept fighting and we were nearly managed to pull of a miracle.
Negatives:
1. We concede way to many stupid and unnecessary goals and this season we've been bailed out by our attackers time and time again. Imo, Maguire and AWB are good enough while the others need upgrading in time, thought its not the most pressing issue. Ole was a striker his whole career so really i dont think hes the best at organizing defenses. We need to bring in a top notch defensive coach to sort out this mess or its going to be the downfall of Ole
2. Midfield is still a a problem. Personally i think Bruno/Fred/VdB is the best we can line up, but they are really untested and we need to see more of them to make an informed call
3. Although our consistency in the long term, in terms of W/D/L ratio has been quite good, our consistency in games is lacking. Time and time this season we have started out half asleep and it needs to be sorted ASAP. Having to fight our way back from a losing position every other game is simply not sustainable
I was always Ole in but I gave up around a month back.
2 years in charge is more than enough to intregate at least a form of game plan or improve our general attacking movement.
The "Give it to Bruno" tactic wins you games but doesn't win you titles.
2 years in charge is more than enough to intregate at least a form of game plan or improve our general attacking movement.
The "Give it to Bruno" tactic wins you games but doesn't win you titles.
This thread is where all the top red establish themselves. Unfortunately it seems like some of these top reds are changing Manchester United to Ole United. A club with ambitious doesn't need to wait till the end of the season to know whether Ole has to be sacked. Ole failed to get out of the group stage even though he has better players and facilities than rb Leipzig and similar quality or greater to that of psg. It will be hard to somehow save his season and from what I have seen so far, relying on luck can only take you so far
What's interesting is that some Ole inners dont want to commit to a sacking if Ole doesn't get top 4. I'm seeing comments like "give Ole the end of the season and if we are out of top 4 we should reassess". Reassess what?? No top 4 and he gets the sack. Nothing to reassess. It's like people don't fear the possibility of being in Europa for 3 years straight
Let's not forget we're actually learning to dismantle teams that turtle up regularly now, even without Pogba. Our attacking build up play is leagues apart from what is was last season. The prep work, both good and bad, ultimately lands with some weight on Ole.
You don't go from born baby to Olympic runner in short period of time. There are steps. The same thing with us right now, you don't go from Mourinho destroying our team that cost the club 360m pounds & 290m net spend by fixing it with 250m pounds & 160m net spend. We are only 5 points off from the top of the league with 1 game in our hand, I want to see progress and if we can finish our season with promising things in the league and much better than last season then it's progress from last season to lead us into title contender next season.
Even your two positives have qualifiers. Since fergie/compared to previous managers. How about compare it to the highest level of football. The never give up thing has been part of our DNA well before ole and will be here long after him. Also if one third of your argument he's done well basically build down to when we are losing, we attack more kindly give your head a wobble.
Apart from having Bruno on the form of his life, what's actually changing?
Formation? Tactical? Does player improves each season? Does teamwork improves? does Individual technique improves? Does our coordination improves?
We improves on points lately, but that's realy a very thin margin since WBA, Brighton, Southampton were games we're very lucky to over come. Now at the end of the day 3pts is 3pts and fair play to ole, but still I don't see visible progression game wise.
Formation? Tactical? Does player improves each season? Does teamwork improves? does Individual technique improves? Does our coordination improves?
We improves on points lately, but that's realy a very thin margin since WBA, Brighton, Southampton were games we're very lucky to over come. Now at the end of the day 3pts is 3pts and fair play to ole, but still I don't see visible progression game wise.