Matic dropping into defence

[MadDogg]

I remember after one game last season there were a bunch of pics posted showing how utterly alone Pogba was being left in midfield. There was Pogba in the middle, and then literally seven opposition players closer to Pogba than any Man Utd player. Our front four were all sitting high, we had Maguire, Lindelof and Matic at the back, the two fullbacks fairly deep as well because they had to try to get in position to get the ball...and Pogba all by himself in the middle completely surrounded by the opposition. And then we wonder why we can't build anything. We had a similar set up today, and it's a regular thing when we play Matic and Pogba together.

If we utilised quick attacking raids down the wings with our fullbacks charging forward it would make sense. But we don't really do that. Or if Bruno were dropping back into the midfield at the same time as Matic drops into the defence that could work as well. But without that happening it's basically us deciding not to bother playing with a midfield.

Speaking of Bruno, it does seem to be a trend that as he plays more and more games without a real break he tends to sit higher up the pitch and not help out the midfield as much. It's not something I'm particularly blaming him for as it's understandable his workrate drops a bit as he gets exhausted, but it'd be great if we could rest him sometimes to help him out.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Most top teams do this. Full-backs will push forwards and then the DM will usually drop back to provide another way to build up from the back, while providing some defensive security if you lose possession.

Honestly, watch a lot of possession-based sides, it's literally a normal occurrence. Leeds do the same with Phillips and push their full-backs on, Liverpool with Henderson etc. It's supposed to help teams play out from the back and I actually like him doing it.

The difference is these teams play a 433 so will naturally have 2 midfielders in the centre alongside the fullbacks high up.

that creates the 3-4-2-1 which they aim for.

when we do it though it’s pogba by himself about 5/10 yards ahead of the back 3, then a huge gap to the 3 forwards and Bruno.

we need to find a way to balance this properly. Ole clearly doesn’t care much about building play and would rather get it forward ASAP, but in games like tonight where you need more patience and control if doesn’t work.

 

[Oldyella]

It bugs me. Its obviously something we plan to do, but even when our CBs have the ball Matic is often stood right on their toes when there is no need for him to be there. Makes our midfield so disjointed as hes deep, Bruno is pushed on and Pogba is stood in midfield marked.

 

[Gerald G]

The difference is these teams play a 433 so will naturally have 2 midfielders in the centre alongside the fullbacks high up.

that creates the 3-4-2-1 which they aim for.

when we do it though it’s pogba by himself about 5/10 yards ahead of the back 3, then a huge gap to the 3 forwards and Bruno.

we need to find a way to balance this properly. Ole clearly doesn’t care much about building play and would rather get it forward ASAP, but in games like tonight where you need more patience and control if doesn’t work.

I didn't say we do it effectively, I'm just saying that I understand what they're trying to do. Obviously I agree it should be tweaked.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Standard tactic innit?

 

[MrSingh2002]

This is a normal tactical move with 4-2-3-1. The central defenders split out to the sides towards the full backs, and the CDM falls back so you effectivly have a back three. The splitting of central defenders is why it is so important to have a left footed central defender in the DCL position. In addition, if you looked closely in the first half, you will see that when Telles was bombing on in the first half, it was Matic that was dropping down to the left fullback position. Basically Matic is dropping back to allow the fullbacks to be more attacking.

Matic was our best outfield player today. The only CDM we have that positions himself properly. We really need a younger, more mobile version of Matic. Caicedes looks very promising.

Caicedes and also Alvaro Fernandez I believe his name is. The young left back we signed from Real Madrid.

If ever there was a successor in the mould of Matic it's him. I hope the academy turn him into a left footed CDM and in 2 years can see him being around the first team.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I didn't say we do it effectively, I'm just saying that I understand what they're trying to do. Obviously I agree it should be tweaked.

It’s like we’ve seen others do it and tried to copy it, but don’t actually understand why.

the odd thing is it only seems to happen when pogba and matic play together, Fred and mctominay don’t do this.

I wonder whether it’s actually matic doing it naturally rather than an actual team tactic.

putting pogba into more pressure with less people to pass to just seems suicidal, just like it was against Southampton!

 

[georgipep]

The difference is these teams play a 433 so will naturally have 2 midfielders in the centre alongside the fullbacks high up.

that creates the 3-4-2-1 which they aim for.

when we do it though it’s pogba by himself about 5/10 yards ahead of the back 3, then a huge gap to the 3 forwards and Bruno.

we need to find a way to balance this properly. Ole clearly doesn’t care much about building play and would rather get it forward ASAP, but in games like tonight where you need more patience and control if doesn’t work.

You obviously completely ignore our fullbacks. They push forward and play first on the line of Pogba and the one of them continues forward and become the width-creating player on the wing we attack (usually left and Shaw).

And it's working quite well.

 

[georgipep]

It’s like we’ve seen others do it and tried to copy it, but don’t actually understand why.

the odd thing is it only seems to happen when pogba and matic play together, Fred and mctominay don’t do this.

I wonder whether it’s actually matic doing it naturally rather than an actual team tactic.

putting pogba into more pressure with less people to pass to just seems suicidal, just like it was against Southampton!

It's because neither Fred nor McT have the discipline to do what Matić does and then neither of them has the skills to play in the build-up like Pogba with the fullbacks. McT, Lindelof and AWB have recently started playing some lovely triangles on the right,though, so there is hope.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It’s like we’ve seen others do it and tried to copy it, but don’t actually understand why.

the odd thing is it only seems to happen when pogba and matic play together, Fred and mctominay don’t do this.

Fred has also done it in fairness.

What usually happens is that it a clear tactic depending on the game, it's why he has Pogba/Matic and Fred/McTom as his cleared preferred partnerships as he likely thinks Pogba can deal better with being alone than Fred or McTom.

 

[Adam-Utd]

You obviously completely ignore our fullbacks. They push forward and play first on the line of Pogba and the one of them continues forward and become the width-creating player on the wing we attack (usually left and Shaw).

And it's working quite well.

What are you talking about? it seems you’re the one that’s completely ignoring something

 

[georgipep]

What are you talking about? it seems you’re the one that’s completely ignoring something

You wrote in your post that Pogba has Bruno and the forwards only ahead of him, ignoring the fullbacks who join to help him.

 

[Adam-Utd]

You wrote in your post that Pogba has Bruno and the forwards only ahead of him, ignoring the fullbacks who join to help him.

The fullbacks aren’t within about 30 yards of pogba, how does that help him when he’s pressed? No team in the world leaves 1 man alone in centre midfield with nobody close by to help.

go back and watch our game against Southampton at the end of last season and you’ll see what I mean (and what this thread is about in general)

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Another one, where a poor CM was left all alone.

The tactic is clear, our execution of it, well... that's something else.

As I say, in the games with Matic and Pogba, Ole is clearly planning to attack from wide areas and ignore the congested midfield.

 

[Ekeke]

I'll keep an eye out for it next time for specific examples, but I've 100% seen Fred and McTominay do it at times in the past as well

 

[Gerald G]

Another one, where a poor CM was left all alone.

The tactic is clear, our execution of it, well... that's something else.

As I say, in the games with Matic and Pogba, Ole is clearly planning to attack from wide areas and ignore the congested midfield.

Yep. Perfect example. Thanks for posting this

 

[Gerald G]

It’s like we’ve seen others do it and tried to copy it, but don’t actually understand why.

the odd thing is it only seems to happen when pogba and matic play together, Fred and mctominay don’t do this.

I wonder whether it’s actually matic doing it naturally rather than an actual team tactic.

putting pogba into more pressure with less people to pass to just seems suicidal, just like it was against Southampton!

The post at the end of this page shows how I think we're trying to play. Now the execution is another thing!

 

[Mcking]

Standard tactic innit?

That is probably the idea.

Methinks either Matic does it to cover for his lack of mobility against the press, or it's tactical which means Solskjaer's got a few to learn. Either way, they shouldn't be leaving Pogba alone in midfield so often.

 

[Adnan]

When Fred and McTominay start together, they tend to play in what seems like a conventional double pivot with both making themselves available for the ball in front of the center backs.

Matic didn't play too badly today, but whenever he starts, especially with Pogba, he tends to drop in alongside Maguire in the build up. It completely isolates Pogba in midfield, and with Bruno usually high up the pitch as well, it effectively leaves us with a one man midfield.

I'm yet to really see the positives with him doing it, and I wonder if he just does it because he doesn't fancy the midfield battle, or if he does it under instructions. What's the thinking behind it?

Because otherwise Maguire would be exposed in the channel in a 1v1 situation.

 

[Mcking]

Because otherwise Maguire would be exposed in the channel in a 1v1 situation.

When we have the ball?

 

[Adnan]

When we have the ball?

Without the ball and with the ball IMO. So basically Matic is asked to patrol the space vacated by Telles in transition which means Pogba will get crowded out in midfield. It's not ideal but it helps to keep Maguire away from a direct 1v1 situation 10 yards further out from the 18 yard box.

The difference in the Ajax system is that they maintained the midfield balance by having the most advanced midfielder dropping deeper.

 

[3KDré]

Bayern do the same thing. The difference is Thiago/Kimmich have more intelligence in their positioning to receive the ball than Pogba, and each of their CBs and fullbacks are a lot better on the balls than ours so when they struggle to find Thiago/Kimmich they can hit longer balls. Our CBs are capable of it but they just don’t do it often enough. It also helps that they’re very very well coached so they always know where to find a teammate.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

That is probably the idea.

Methinks either Matic does it to cover for his lack of mobility against the press, or it's tactical which means Solskjaer's got a few to learn. Either way, they shouldn't be leaving Pogba alone in midfield so often.

You still arguing it might not be tactical? Despite the entire thread telling you it clearly is?

 

[theklr]

When Fred and McTominay start together, they tend to play in what seems like a conventional double pivot with both making themselves available for the ball in front of the center backs.

Matic didn't play too badly today, but whenever he starts, especially with Pogba, he tends to drop in alongside Maguire in the build up. It completely isolates Pogba in midfield, and with Bruno usually high up the pitch as well, it effectively leaves us with a one man midfield.

I'm yet to really see the positives with him doing it, and I wonder if he just does it because he doesn't fancy the midfield battle, or if he does it under instructions. What's the thinking behind it?

I think the reasoning behind this is that midfield players know if they want to press our backline Pogba gets free in the middle, and can drive forward or pin some long range passes.

You can see that he everytime goes straight behind the player directly facing our backline, so its definately on purpose. If any of the others on the side goes to press, he will go there to get space.

An expensive decoy more or less.

 

[Bebestation]

Remember the false CB some guy was talking about?

 

[K Stand Knut]

I’m not sure what all the arguing is about.

the first half yesterday clearly had Matic tactically dropping in to LB whenever we had the ball to allow Telles to get forward, presumably in an attempt to supply Cavani with crosses, which didn’t work because a) Wolves defended well and b) Telles put poor balls in to the box.

Shaw came on, again for whatever reason, whether it be tactical switch (credit to Ole) or an injury and it meant a change in the tactical approach because Matic didn’t drop to LB as much, if at all, in the second half.

in turn, this offered additional protection through the middle, didn’t isolate Pogba and allowed Pogba to get further forward.

Personally, I’m going to give Ole the credit that he saw it wasn’t working and changed things up leading to us dominating the second half but against a Wolves team that defended exceptionally for 90+ minutes.

I thought Matic played well all game but the difference in a Pogba as the game wore on was amazing. He became more and more influential in a game that Bruno was struggling to make an impact (I say this as one of the most vocal Pogba fans I know. And not

A tad lucky but good tactical win for Ole and the team.

 

[Maccataq]

This is a normal tactical move with 4-2-3-1. The central defenders split out to the sides towards the full backs, and the CDM falls back so you effectivly have a back three. The splitting of central defenders is why it is so important to have a left footed central defender in the DCL position. In addition, if you looked closely in the first half, you will see that when Telles was bombing on in the first half, it was Matic that was dropping down to the left fullback position. Basically Matic is dropping back to allow the fullbacks to be more attacking.

Matic was our best outfield player today. The only CDM we have that positions himself properly. We really need a younger, more mobile version of Matic. Caicedes looks very promising.

This is spot on

 

[Buster15]

When Matic plays, he becomes the Left back , allowing Shaw/Rashford(or Martial) to overload on the left hand side. When the opposition team attacks down the middle, since Matic has left a vacant space, Shaw will always move the Center. Its a fair tactic, cause I feel Shaw is one of the best players with his ball on his feet in this united squad.

That is a very fair assessment and one I agree with. Clearly Matic is an intelligent as well as experienced player. Our defence always looks more solid when he plays like that.

 

[Lewnited]

As has been said here a few times, the reason it creates an issue is because Bruno operates so high up the pitch at times, almost as a second striker. With regards to yesterday, Cavani and Telles also operate further up the pitch than Martial and Shaw, so we has effectively nothing in the middle in the first half.

Matic spent near enough the whole first half yesterday next to Maguire, which I suspect was for protection against Traore. I'd say we were successfully able to take him out the game, however it was so simple for Wolves to play through us on the counter. Once he started to pick his moments in the second half, we got control of the game and started to sustain some type of pressure, albeit without ever creating any clear cut chances.

This was really hurting us when we dropped off towards the end of last season as well, as we were contantly trying to get through games with only Pogba in midfield and kept losing control.

 

[Maticmaker]

IMO Matic played on the left side in a more defensive position to help counter attacks (down their right) from Traore and for the most part he did a job on the Wolves 'flying-power machine'. Yes, it did leave Pogba isolated in midfield but as the game went on, Shaw for Telles, the left side secured (mainly), Matic went more central and Pogba's starting position became ten yards further forward.

 

[simplyared]

He can do what the feck he likes as long as he puts in performances like he did last night. A true DM playing the role as it should be played.

 

[youmeletsfly]

When Fred and McTominay start together, they tend to play in what seems like a conventional double pivot with both making themselves available for the ball in front of the center backs.

Matic didn't play too badly today, but whenever he starts, especially with Pogba, he tends to drop in alongside Maguire in the build up. It completely isolates Pogba in midfield, and with Bruno usually high up the pitch as well, it effectively leaves us with a one man midfield.

I'm yet to really see the positives with him doing it, and I wonder if he just does it because he doesn't fancy the midfield battle, or if he does it under instructions. What's the thinking behind it?

If i hear the expression "double-pivot" again when talking about football I'm gonna puke.
When we play MCT and Fred we're playing two defensive players, as simple as that, no need to make it fancy.

 

[Borys]

When Fred and McTominay start together, they tend to play in what seems like a conventional double pivot with both making themselves available for the ball in front of the center backs.

Matic didn't play too badly today, but whenever he starts, especially with Pogba, he tends to drop in alongside Maguire in the build up. It completely isolates Pogba in midfield, and with Bruno usually high up the pitch as well, it effectively leaves us with a one man midfield.

I'm yet to really see the positives with him doing it, and I wonder if he just does it because he doesn't fancy the midfield battle, or if he does it under instructions. What's the thinking behind it?

The fact Pogba is alone in midfield does not matter much because we don't use him in build-up from the back. This has been explained well in the movie Regulus posted. We've scored a few goals recently with a direct pass from defense to striker dropping deep (Martial/Cavani, yesterday it was Rashford mostly). Perfect example was Cavani goal vs Everton (when we played exactly that formation with Matic and Pogba), second was Bruno goal vs Leeds.

The main positive I see is that we throw a lot of players forward, but keep opposition stretched what creates space to operate around the box. We are not very good at it yet, but I can see where this is going. Another positive is we can keep the possession (around 60% against Everton and Wolves), and we are actually quite sound defensively (record low xGA vs Wolves).

The reason we don't do that with Fred and McTominay is because Ole chooses to play them in more difficult games where opposition attacks us more. In those games we will press higher and try to intercept the ball early to catch them stretched, and we attack fast and directly rather than focusing on possession. By the way, we are very good at that (see Rashford chance vs Leeds and Martial offside goal).

Pogba all by himself in the middle completely surrounded by the opposition.

Which I believe is exactly the case what we're trying to achieve. See below how many players he attracts (stretching the opponent team - I think this pic is cropped a bit too much but it shows how it works) while being in totally not-dangerous area (and like I said earlier, we never pass to him, ball goes directly to forwards or wingbacks):

Now in that scenario Pogba comes into play as an attacking pivot when we pin opposition to the box:

This is the right way to use Pogba as he stays around the box where he's most dangerous; Matic stays back but because there are 3 of them, he can also push forward. This is possible because with Bailly we can play high line.

I quite like that approach to be honest. This doesn't look very effective because of poor wingplay, I'd say we have to do it with Shaw on the left but no idea who works on the right. This needs to be improved.

Edit:
Below Pogba vs Wolves heatmap. Notice how he takes 3 positions in which he stands on the pitch. This for me confirms he is instructed to do so rather than move around to make himself available for a pass. This seemed a bit weird after Everton game but the heatmap looked exactly the same, so it's clearly following the instructions.

 

[MadDogg]

This is the right way to use Pogba as he stays around the box where he's most dangerous; Matic stays back but because there are 3 of them, he can also push forward. This is possible because with Bailly we can play high line.

I quite like that approach to be honest. This doesn't look very effective because of poor wingplay, I'd say we have to do it with Shaw on the left but no idea who works on the right. This needs to be improved.

It's something that can work quite well in the right setup and at the right moments, but I think it relies on quick transitions of play. The attackers and fullbacks need to be making the right movements and runs, and the three at the back need to be able to spot them and then find them with the ball. The goal of Matic dropping back into the defence should be to unbalance the opposition and create space as our fullbacks rush forward, but we tend to be so slow at playing out from the back that the opposition have plenty of time to cover everyone easily.

It was a huge issue in the last month or two of last season. Match after match we simply couldn't build out from the back at all because we were playing with one player in the midfield, fullbacks that weren't particularly threatening, and our ball movement was far too slow. We'd have three players at the back basically passing it amongst each other, our fullbacks would have to come deeper and deeper to get involved and then we'd basically have five at the back passing it to each other. If one did get into space we'd be far too slow and by the time they get the ball the opposition had already slid over and covered him so he'd just have to turn back again.

In this particular match both Matic and Maguire were a bit better than normal at playing those passes quickly so it wasn't as bad, but we were still finding it difficult.

 

[Borys]

It's something that can work quite well in the right setup and at the right moments, but I think it relies on quick transitions of play. The attackers and fullbacks need to be making the right movements and runs, and the three at the back need to be able to spot them and then find them with the ball. The goal of Matic dropping back into the defence should be to unbalance the opposition and create space as our fullbacks rush forward, but we tend to be so slow at playing out from the back that the opposition have plenty of time to cover everyone easily.

It was a huge issue in the last month or two of last season. Match after match we simply couldn't build out from the back at all because we were playing with one player in the midfield, fullbacks that weren't particularly threatening, and our ball movement was far too slow. We'd have three players at the back basically passing it amongst each other, our fullbacks would have to come deeper and deeper to get involved and then we'd basically have five at the back passing it to each other. If one did get into space we'd be far too slow and by the time they get the ball the opposition had already slid over and covered him so he'd just have to turn back again.

In this particular match both Matic and Maguire were a bit better than normal at playing those passes quickly so it wasn't as bad, but we were still finding it difficult.

Well if you're going to play slow, obviously no formation solves that problem.

I think this formation suits us when we want to dominate possession, CBs good on the ball driving forward, Bruno Martial Cavani dropping deeper, Rashford roaming. I've suggested using 5 at the back because we have no natural wingers, and in that case we use wing backs to stay high and wide. The only worry obviously is what to do with right back because usually there are acres of space to run into on that side, and we know how it ends with AWB.

 

[noodlehair]

When Fred and McTominay start together, they tend to play in what seems like a conventional double pivot with both making themselves available for the ball in front of the center backs.

Matic didn't play too badly today, but whenever he starts, especially with Pogba, he tends to drop in alongside Maguire in the build up. It completely isolates Pogba in midfield, and with Bruno usually high up the pitch as well, it effectively leaves us with a one man midfield.

I'm yet to really see the positives with him doing it, and I wonder if he just does it because he doesn't fancy the midfield battle, or if he does it under instructions. What's the thinking behind it?

Yeah he's been doing this for years now. It's exactly why I don't get it when people say him and Pogba should be our first choice midfield, because it isn't even a midfield. It's an extra centreback and some kind of wandering free spirit.

Carrick started doing similar in the later part of his career and also had a tendancy to drop back into the defensive line when he was in poor form. So I think it's probably to do with not having the legs or sharpness to cover the ground in midfield without being caught out. Whenever Matic does get caught in midfield when the other team win the ball they just run past him (or into him if they're Pedro Neto and want to pretend to be elbowed in the face).

I don't think either him or Pogba have been playing badly either. Against Everton last week they were arguably the two best players individually, but it still didn't really work as a midfield system because they constantly seemed to be about 50 yards away from each other. Fred and McTominay when they're in there together know that one will be covering for the other. Pogba's an attacking player playing in midfield so gets sucked away into different areas, so you can maybe get away with Fred or McTominay next to him but definitely not Matic.

I don't dislike Matic but I'm not sure where he fits really. The thing with Carrick was that even when he dropped deeper, he was really good at reading the game and then playing a quick pass into our attacking player's feet, and we could base how we played around his limitations because of that. Matic is decent enough on the ball but he isn't going to incercept an opposition pass and immediately fire a 40 yard pass up to our strikers too often, and even if he could half the time we don't have a striker there for him to fire it to.

 

[berbatrick]

This is a normal tactical move with 4-2-3-1. The central defenders split out to the sides towards the full backs, and the CDM falls back so you effectivly have a back three. The splitting of central defenders is why it is so important to have a left footed central defender in the DCL position. In addition, if you looked closely in the first half, you will see that when Telles was bombing on in the first half, it was Matic that was dropping down to the left fullback position. Basically Matic is dropping back to allow the fullbacks to be more attacking.

Matic was our best outfield player today. The only CDM we have that positions himself properly. We really need a younger, more mobile version of Matic. Caicedes looks very promising.

He doesn't drop in the middle, the CBs don't split. He was playing LCB of a back 3, while Telles was playing wing-back, and Bruno was level with Cavani. It was a one-man midfield.

 

[Relem]

Not a fan of matic. I don't see what he does better than any of our other midfielders, and rotating two slots between Fred, mctom, vdb and pog would keep them ample fresh. It'd also be good to see Pog with Fred in a few games from the outset.

 

[Trex]

Let me explain what I think Ole is going for

A back three of two ball playing centre backs and one cm to start play and at the the same time cover space in defensive transition

A cm in front with passing range,press resistance and ball carrying capabilities to occupy the opponent giving the back three time on the ball

Two dynamic fullback capable of giving the team width in the final third

A dynamic front four capable of scoring goals/creating chances among themselves

Personnel flaws

Back three don't move it quick enough

Pogba isn't press resistant

Awb struggles going forward

Lack of a ball carrier among front four (non of them is comfortable dropping deep to progress attack bar Martial )/being the center forward he is limited at this

Solution
Buy Upamecano(he is great at drive out of defence/a mobile dm

Utilize Vdb

Buy a more attacking Right back

Let's hope a player like Diallo solves this or we could test the waters with Bukayo Saka or we go back in for Sancho

Or

Just play Cavani and hoof it long

 

[Ekeke]

Fred did it within the first 6 mins, so its not just Matic at all