All midfielders do it. Nobody is complaining about Matic doing it here and there, it's the fact that in a lot of games he spends almost more time in the defence than in the midfield that raises eyebrows and basically forces us to play without a midfield. Fred, McTominay and even Pogba all drop back there at times but it's hardly the same.
Matic dropping into defence
- Thread starter Mcking
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He did a good job yesterday, kept it simple and although it got a bit hairy towards the end I thought he was a calming influence.
I think the difference is Fred doesn’t so much as sit there, he gets there when the danger is there or Fullback is high up the pitch. Fred’s energy, willingness and ability to run mean he can easily go between a central position and back out there almost instantly.
I just feel that what we saw against Wolves was exasperated by Bruno’s lack of wanting to drop in and play in midfield. If he would have stepped in there then it wouldn’t have looked as bad as it did in my opinion.
I think that is why Ole brought on Shaw over Telles as he could go one on one Traore freeing Matic to push up. As soon as that happened and Pogba could get further up the pitch we really started to play a lot better. Also have the benefit of Shaw just being better on the ball overall so probably helped maintain possesion better.
I do agree with what a lot of people have been saying that we need an energetic version of Matic who has an understanding of what his role is. No doubt you can see the great things Matic can do on a pitch, positions he takes up and decisions he makes. Just lacks the energy or ability to do it over 90 mins and consistentl.
Yet another game where we do this and find ourselves completely unable to break a team down. Is it any wonder? Pogba is an island in midfield; it's only inhabitants are Sheffield United players. It takes us 15 passes to get the ball into their half. Whatever the reason behind this, it has to stop.
It had nothing to do with him dropping back though, he was just shite.
A 1/10 performance along with 3/4 others and the manager gets a 0/10 for sitting there and doing nothing about it.
Even when we skipped him out completely we were utterly terrible.
I’m fuming, I can’t believe I watched that unfold for 82 minutes whilst the management just thought “it’ll get better soon”.
It has everything to do with that. It happens every single time we play like this. Even when we win, we win unconvincingly. I don't even think it's Matic; he's clearly being told to do it. Just watch how often the ball goes wide and we find ourselves with no way out. It's because there's no pass on inside. We get the ball further forward and the same thing happens. All the blame will go to the forwards, but how often did we actually work the ball to a position where we could play them in?
(How weird is this. You're saying Matic played shite and I'm saying it's not his fault.
)Innit I don’t get this tactic, we can only go wide then basically.
Is there anybody with a football brain who would be okay with a 1 man midfield?
It's perfectly fine to play this way against teams that proactively press, or play higher up the pitch. That step forward, we use our extra man back there to bypass the press, and then Bruno has acres of space to step into to receive the pass. But we only seem to set up like this against teams that are happy to sit in.
It’s bizarre tactically. They were compact and playing a low block. So instead of having a Fred/Mata/VDB in there picking them apart, we decided to drop a midfielder into defence, push our centre backs wide and our fullbacks forward so we could cross the ball into an area that had 5 massive centrebacks up against one forward who is shy with his head.
Yes, because if he plays well, it’s much less of an issue.(How weird is this. You're saying Matic played shite and I'm saying it's not his fault.
The fault is firmly on him, Martial, Telles, Tuanzebe and DDG having utter horror shows.
If you think the main problem tonight was simply Matic dropping deep, I’m saying you’re blinkered. Push him 10 yards up playing that poorly and we’re equally shit for me.
Should have been replaced with 3 others at HT.
I don't think it's the only problem, but it's a big one. If you watch us struggle when we set up like this every single time but refuse to contemplate that maybe the set up, that always coincides with us struggling to create, then I'd say you're blinkered.
Exactly put problem. No one was available in the middle to take that charge. Pogba went to the box, Bruno on the wings. It was fecking Matic to come out from defence and pass.
Its about balance. We win that game 98 times out of 100 if McFred is our starting midfield. I've just posted in the post match thread how much I despise a Pogba & Matic midfield. I throw up a little every time I see it, and I pray that we never use it again
And yet the two of them were instrumental in beating Burnley the other week. Pogba and Matic midfield wasn’t the problem. The team as a whole didn’t work as hard as their opponent did.
We’ve hardly always been free flowing without Matic this season though have we?
This was in fact, typical United when teams truly set up to defend.
We've created a hell of a lot more chances though. And that stands to reason. Playing, what in actuality is, an extra CB against a team that plays an extra CB, is going to equate to less opportunities.
I can't believe this is still happening, it's so glaringly obvious that this is hurting us that I feel like I'm missing out on some obvious tactical ploy.
In every one of the 'expected wins' we've played this season with Matic in the pivot, he's spent the whole game as part of a back three and its killed us. Usually he steps more in to midfield in the second half and we gain control of the game... but not today.
Did we seriously go in to this game thinking Sheffield were going to press us high up the pitch? We could've played literally ANY other midfielder today and we would have comfortably boxed Sheffield in to their own half, but we decide to leave Pogba as the only body in midfield and they have an out ball every time. Shocking.
In every one of the 'expected wins' we've played this season with Matic in the pivot, he's spent the whole game as part of a back three and its killed us. Usually he steps more in to midfield in the second half and we gain control of the game... but not today.
Did we seriously go in to this game thinking Sheffield were going to press us high up the pitch? We could've played literally ANY other midfielder today and we would have comfortably boxed Sheffield in to their own half, but we decide to leave Pogba as the only body in midfield and they have an out ball every time. Shocking.
This team is shit with Pogba, Matic duo in the middle of the park. We are far to slow. When we want to dominate games he is not the one to pick.
Yet it was the midfield that got us up to 3rd at the end of the season just gone. The problem today was Ole's subs.
We created a lot more chances in games where Fernandes is having a worldy and Rashford and Martial look sharp and menacing in attack
When they're all having an off day Nemanja Matic or any DM is unlikely to suddenly become a match winner creating when they arent. The most likely thing would be Matic or a DM popping up with a goal to help out like Maguire did.
I was really surprised that Ole didn’t change this sooner. Tuanzebe wasn’t playing well, so an attacking midfielder for him, with Matic going to centre back, felt like an obvious move.
We dont box any team in. Thats not how we play
It's just a massive coincidence then, that it always happens when we play this way...
A period where our front three were an XG crushing trio. It doesnt work
Boxing teams in isn't a playing style, it's quite simply just being able to sustain attacks. We're not great at it regardles, which is why we often get countered on throughout matches. However, we give ourselves next to no chance when we vacate the midfield and leave Matic 15 yards behind Pogba.We dont box any team in. Thats not how we play
We're inviting teams forward so we can use the one weapon that we're really good at, a quick break. Doesnt matter who we pick we dont dominate the ball and cut teams open when they're sitting back in large numbers.
I struggle to believe we went in to a game against a team that'd amassed 5 points from a possible 57 hoping to invite them forward and hit them on the break...
I think it's more likely we vacated the midfield with intent to get around them on the flanks, but that's pretty hard when all four wide players spend the whole game flat footed! Either way, shocking performance.
I think it's more likely we vacated the midfield with intent to get around them on the flanks, but that's pretty hard when all four wide players spend the whole game flat footed! Either way, shocking performance.
Yeah I think that was the plan, the bizarre thing was that a) it wasn’t working and b) a number of players were having horror shows.
I still can’t get my head around the management just thinking it’d magically get better.
It’s on overload on the left because our right is so pathetic.
matic drops back, invariably towards the left which enables Shaw/Telles to push up effectively playing as a winger which then enables Rashford more space. Throw Bruno into that area of the pitch supported by Pogba and Martial and we start to have our most dangerous players in the same vicinity and subsequently making things happen.
how many times did you see matic tonight urging Telles to get further fwd.he wouldn’t leave the poor guy alone.
whilst not a bad tactic to use, it’s glaring issue is that we are so overly reliant on the left. If we had more options on the right then moving their defenders across from side to side would create more space/opportunities.
we need the right addressing (nothing new there eh) so we aren’t so one dimensional against teams with low block.
I was really hoping for Amad to at least be on the bench tonight. Not because he’s our savour, but at least it’s more balanced and I’m excited to see if perhaps we can soon expect not to be so reliant attacking from the left
matic drops back, invariably towards the left which enables Shaw/Telles to push up effectively playing as a winger which then enables Rashford more space. Throw Bruno into that area of the pitch supported by Pogba and Martial and we start to have our most dangerous players in the same vicinity and subsequently making things happen.
how many times did you see matic tonight urging Telles to get further fwd.he wouldn’t leave the poor guy alone.
whilst not a bad tactic to use, it’s glaring issue is that we are so overly reliant on the left. If we had more options on the right then moving their defenders across from side to side would create more space/opportunities.
we need the right addressing (nothing new there eh) so we aren’t so one dimensional against teams with low block.
I was really hoping for Amad to at least be on the bench tonight. Not because he’s our savour, but at least it’s more balanced and I’m excited to see if perhaps we can soon expect not to be so reliant attacking from the left
The lack of proactiveness is really hard to stomach. I think because so often we've eventually stumbled our way to a win it's almost become a failsafe of the management to assume something will happen at some point. The fact that this sort of result felt like an inevitability for many says it all.
I genuinely think this tactic is awful and it isolates Pogba with no one for him to pass to, why not just keep it simple and have the 2 CMs in the CM position, call me old fashioned but it seems to work with Fred and McTominay.
He's never actually in midfield to break up attacks either.
Look at the run that their CB went on through the middle of our pitch, that is Matic's prime objective and where was he? just jogging along behind him waiting for everybody else to do the work. Pathetic. He was absolutely awful.
Look at the run that their CB went on through the middle of our pitch, that is Matic's prime objective and where was he? just jogging along behind him waiting for everybody else to do the work. Pathetic. He was absolutely awful.
He had a few good 1v1 tackles, outside of that was very poor, Fred would have been better for us today.
He had that 1 tackle at the end that he did well with to be fair, but that doesn't excuse a complete shitshow of a performance.
He had a 50/50 tackle with Billy Sharp and got dumped on his ass
I couldn't believe it. He looked like he'd been taken away from his favourite tv show and couldn't be bothered to be there.It's the little difference between a 4231 and a 433.
In a 433 the CDM can drop to create a back 3 whilst leaving 2 CM to initiate attacks or get forward.
In a 4231 if a CDM drops in between the centre backs then our CAM can almost be playing at the tip of our attack in comparison. This leaves our CM by himself (pogba) and arguably all of our midfield playing vertically from each other.
In a 433 the CDM can drop to create a back 3 whilst leaving 2 CM to initiate attacks or get forward.
In a 4231 if a CDM drops in between the centre backs then our CAM can almost be playing at the tip of our attack in comparison. This leaves our CM by himself (pogba) and arguably all of our midfield playing vertically from each other.
We essentially played with 3 centre backs yesterday. No idea why Ole didnt put Tuanzebe out at half time and pulled Matic back completely. It wasn't like they were attacking us anyway and we could have used that extra man in midfield or up front.
Spot on. Bizarre.
We had no answer, but it's plainly obvious what we were trying was hopeless
I agree - the tactic is pretty poor.
I also agree with others, other midfielders such as Fred drop deep to get the ball. Difference is, they dont do it as often or stay there.
Last season, I was a big fan of Matic as he calmed the midfield down and his positioning was pretty good. This season, it's absurd. It's effecting us big time.
The CB's dont carry the ball up when Matic is behind them - so our entire shape is off. Our passing is pretty poor so when there's a bigger gap between our attacking midfielders / wide players and defenders we just can't get the ball to them. Our shape is a really big problem.
Fred is our best player from deep - he's got good passing and has the workrate to make a difference in there. Pogba is a luxury player, he doesnt do the hard yards and needs a player to basically do half his job so we're always going to have a problem in the DM/CM area.
Fred and Mctominey doesnt seem to work as they're both similar, with Mctominey being the worse passer and tackler.
Matic and anyone is a problem cos Matic is always too deep and lacks the legs to break up play.
And whoever plays with Pogba will have so much work to do to compliment what pogba brings.
The amount of times we are walking with the ball at the back with no urgency infuriates me. it's so slow and laboured and predictable - it's no wonder we struggle to break teams down
I really think it is as simple as Matic avoiding the midfield pressure, and not having the legs to get around the pitch.