OK, thanks. That makes sense, I was sure I must be missing something but my googling failed me.
The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll
- Thread starter Badunk
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Correct in utopia where everything (wealth, food, resources) is distributed equally and ideally. Wrong in the reality where governments are only responsible to their own citizens and they have no moral obligation to ensure every country on this planet gets what they need.
That said, richer countries have already donated billions of dollars to WHO and COVAX for this purpose. After that, it's WHO's responsibility (their only one) to help out poorer countries. It's funny they point fingers at UK for their incompetence in preventing this pandemic and distributing vaccines equally.
P. S. Perfect world doesn't exist (if so there shouldn't have been a pandemic in the first place) and I do not live in UK.
Vaccinating an entire country vs vaccinating only high risk individuals in several countries, which one favors viral mutation and resistance more? High school biology could give you the answer.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't provide vaccines to poorer countries, and I do agree we'll not be out of this until everyone is vaccinated, but WHO has no right to point fingers at UK for this.
My understanding (which may be wrong) is that a large factor in the UK's quick rollout of the vaccine has been their willingness to take a higher risk approach in term of manufacturer liability/responsibilities, regulatory assessment and the way the vaccines themselves are used.
Given they've taken on that extra risk, it seems reasonable to me that they would seek to make the most out of it by seeking to vaccinate their own population beyond the high-risk groups rather than share a surplus at that point. After all, that surplus came at high potential cost.
Given they've taken on that extra risk, it seems reasonable to me that they would seek to make the most out of it by seeking to vaccinate their own population beyond the high-risk groups rather than share a surplus at that point. After all, that surplus came at high potential cost.
I’m reading about China’s vaccine rollout...or lack of one. They’re selling vaccine abroad but haven’t started vaccinating any of the at risk groups within China. It seems like a crazy strategy to me. They’re calling it vaccine diplomacy and are having a pop at western countries for hoarding vaccine.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...5d1070-5eb9-11eb-a177-7765f29a9524_story.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...5d1070-5eb9-11eb-a177-7765f29a9524_story.html
Most of the risks taken were financial ones. They bought early, their grants for early production were handed out earlier, they bought a wider portfolio. Basically the per dose calculation always included the fact that, compared to things like the furlough scheme, the vaccines were cheap. Also despite their repeated refrain of "Oxford, AstraZeneca," they didn't have to worry about local manufacturers getting a fair proportion of the business.
For some, they made guaranteed minimum purchase agreements dependant on approval. For the Oxford/AZ they picked up a lot of the tab on research and developing manufacturing capacity at risk. For Novavax they offered to do the first Phase3 clinical trials, and help them set up manufacturing capability as well. The MHRA tracked the Phase3 trials, so they already knew what was coming in the approval submissions and they'd already asked for the extra data they wanted before it got as far as the finished formal approval request.
The real scientific gamble is the one that's ongoing now. The Pfizer second dose delay is based on a risk assessment that includes the fact that they'll save more lives that way, because current daily death rates are horrific. They wouldn't do that without an additional trial if they had months to play with. The AZ is different in that they aren't doing anything the manufacturer hasn't got some data for, even if ideally (again) you would wait for higher case numbers in the trial (ie: more illness in the placebo group and more deaths nationally).
But yeah, the UK took more risks and is literally paying a higher (financial) price for the vaccines. The rest of the world is undoubtedly also looking at the dose interval results and the impact on the 70+ groups. It's the biggest study anyone will see, and the results should start to be visible in March and we have to hope they'll be obvious (in a good way) in April.
This isn't completely true but vaccine diplomacy certainly exists.
Just a mere 600k doses administered in the last 24 hours...
Paywalled for me. What’s the short version of their rationale for choosing to export ahead of vaccinating at-risk groups at home?
That is fecking good going! Kind of amazed we haven't cocked up the vaccine roll-out, or at least, not yet. Fingers crossed the delayed second doses don't come back to bite us in the arse.
It looks like they haven’t started over 60s because they don’t have phase 3 data yet. The estimates are it’ll take 2 years to vaccinate around 500m in China - their aim is 24m by middle of Feb - these are key workers. Over 500m doses currently signed up to be exported from China over the next 2 years.
The reasoning given:
“Beijing’s ‘vaccine diplomacy’ has raised concerns from rivals. But China maintains it’s doing the humanitarian thing by not hoarding vaccine doses like wealthier nations.
“It is the right thing to do,” said Victor Gao, a former Chinese Foreign Ministry official, of Beijing’s strategy. “The motto is leaving no one behind.”
Russia seems quite similar. They’ve only vaccinated 1% so far but have shipped Sputnik V to other parts of the world I believe.
So they’re not yet confident enough about the vaccine’s safety/efficacy to use it in elderly/vulnerable Chinese people but they’re happy to flog it overseas for use in elderly/vulnerable foreigners. How very magnanimous of them.
this.
there's two chances they're doing it for the greater good; none and feck all.
My neighbours got their 1st vaccine the other day, the Pfizer one. They seemed well chuffed to share the news around.
Their daughter was telling me that her mother cried, she was so happy. I didn't realize the mother was 65+. She looks good for that age, says I, trying not to sound at all pervy.
Hopefully it won't be too long before they move into the next phase which will allow the 55s & older to get it. My wife will need to bring a few forms of ID as they're no way they'll believe she's 55+.
Me; they'll be asking why I didn't come in sooner.
Their daughter was telling me that her mother cried, she was so happy. I didn't realize the mother was 65+. She looks good for that age, says I, trying not to sound at all pervy.
Hopefully it won't be too long before they move into the next phase which will allow the 55s & older to get it. My wife will need to bring a few forms of ID as they're no way they'll believe she's 55+.
Me; they'll be asking why I didn't come in sooner.
Is this your thing now? any excuse to bash China because they have somehow managed to handle the pandemic better than anyone else?
Jesus. You’re a cliché, aren’t you? Not everyone has a “thing” and not every comment in this thread is politically motivated. You should give it a go. It would make your contributions a lot less boring/predictable.It was just an observation. Everyone needs a hobby in their latter years.
No. It was a question. A stupid question. But definitely a question. Observations aren’t sentences that end in question marks.
This thread is supposed to be informative and educational but teaching you basic shit like this seems like a waste of everyone’s time. Yet here we are. On ignore you go.
That's good news. Are you in the UK? My mum is 68 and I'm still waiting for a call from our useless as feck GP surgery. We're in South London. I'll give them a call tomorrow.My neighbours got their 1st vaccine the other day, the Pfizer one. They seemed well chuffed to share the news around.
Their daughter was telling me that her mother cried, she was so happy. I didn't realize the mother was 65+. She looks good for that age, says I, trying not to sound at all pervy.
Hopefully it won't be too long before they move into the next phase which will allow the 55s & older to get it. My wife will need to bring a few forms of ID as they're no way they'll believe she's 55+.
Me; they'll be asking why I didn't come in sooner.
Wait until we find out that 50% of them were placebos and that’s why AZ were so keen to support the UK
The government should get credit for ensuring good steady vaccine supply and quantities but the vaccine programme in the UK is largely down to GPs and primary care networks who managed to scale up a logistically very challenging task very well.
Very sad to hear about Captain Sir Tom Moore now in hospital with covid who couldn't get the vaccine as he was fighting pneumonia
Very sad to hear about Captain Sir Tom Moore now in hospital with covid who couldn't get the vaccine as he was fighting pneumonia
Fecking hell. Poor fella has the odds stacked against him. Wonder how he caught it?
Without being a dick, he went galavanting around the Caribbean on holiday not long ago
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No. Southern California, which is having its own problems issuing vaccines. They’re way behind other states. They’re handling vaccine distribution on a county level. GPs in general are not distributing. They’re vaccinating at “super sites” like Disneyland, Dodgers Stadium, etc cos they have huge car parks.
Thousands per day are getting their shots but with about 24 million people here in SoCal it’ll take a while.
NorCal is doing better with some counties doing double the rate of southern counties. If I was a cynic I’d say the governor (Newsome) favours the northern part as he’s from there.
Thankfully trump is out of the way, so at least he won’t be favouring vaccine distribution to red states.
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Not all the over 80s are done yet. They've started on the over 70s but not the over 65s, in most places at any rate. I asked people who have had it and they were advised by NHS England rather than their doctors. I understand the frustration, I'm over 65 myself, but I'd leave the doctor's phone clear for people that need them at the moment.
God speed Sir Tom!
The nation is behind you to beat this virus!
The nation is behind you to beat this virus!
Galavanting verrrry slowly around the Caribbean.
They're still working through the over 75s in most parts of the country, though they've started on the over 70s in some. Appointment invites are still going out to the over 70s, the elderly housebound and the clinically extremely vulnerable in most areas though - and that'll be the bulk of vaccinations for the next couple of weeks.
It's worth keeping in mind that the vaccine supplies are a bit unpredictable. It's not unusual for people to be offered a vaccine "tomorrow." So, I know you're worried about her, but it's unlikely a phone call will do more than get a, "wait for a text/letter/call." If they have a website/FB page check that, some GPs/local health authorities are posting updates on how far they've got.
Yes, I know I'm talking to myself, but I do have a vested interest in the Novavax story.
Assuming there are no changes of heart/plan or sudden switch to Trial.2 (the Novavax next generation cocktail mix or something similar) apparently the trial will be unblinded once the final UK efficacy data is released and the placebo group will then be offered Novavax. That's expected to happen late February. I hope it's true, I've developed a strange commitment to the product by being part of the trial and I'd be disappointed not to get it
One of the regional trial leads is quoted as saying:
“When we are given the green light we will start to ‘unblind’ the trial and we will see which participants have received the vaccine. Those who received the placebo will now be asked back to receive two doses of the Novavax vaccine 21 days apart. This means that all those who took part on the trial will ultimately have protection against this deadly virus.”
https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co...ors-pride-leading-trial-covid-19-jab-novavax/
Which is in itself is a reminder of how complicated current/future clinical trial will be. I suspect from this point on vaccine v placebo (particularly in the over 50s or high risk groups) will have to stop and be replaced with vaccine v other vaccine versions.
Thanks @utdalltheway , @711 and @jojojo . I got a bit excited and as you can tell have a bit of distrust with my GP (will change GP once t lockdown has eased).
Needs another option on the poll Adding *Already had the vaccine
Apparently he's not in intensive care which is good news.
And your last line holds the enormously important info - as if the most famous old person in the country had had the jab, and still got the hospitalised, people would really worry about how effective it is.
Added!
It’s always an interesting/difficult decision. When, exactly, is the point at which you’re so confident of your drug’s efficacy that it becomes unethical to continue the placebo arm? I’d say the context of developing a potential game changer for a global pandemic makes that an even tougher call than usual.Yes, I know I'm talking to myself, but I do have a vested interest in the Novavax story.
Assuming there are no changes of heart/plan or sudden switch to Trial.2 - the Novavax next generation cocktail mix or something similar - apparently the trial will be unblinded once the final UK efficacy data is released and the placebo group will then be offered Novavax. I hope it's true, I've developed a strange commitment to the product by being part of the trial and I'd be disappointed not to get it
One of the regional trial leads is quoted as saying:
“When we are given the green light we will start to ‘unblind’ the trial and we will see which participants have received the vaccine. Those who received the placebo will now be asked back to receive two doses of the Novavax vaccine 21 days apart. This means that all those who took part on the trial will ultimately have protection against this deadly virus.”
https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co...ors-pride-leading-trial-covid-19-jab-novavax/
Which is in itself is a reminder of how complicated current/future clinical trial will be. I suspect from this point on vaccine v placebo (particularly in the over 50s or high risk groups) will have to stop and be replaced with vaccine v other vaccine versions.
100 year olds (he is 100, right?) are incredibly unlikely to get ever get admitted to intensive care.
This is true. The respiratory wards where I work are full at the moment and were only collecting patients onto ICU that are younger if we can. I’ve explained this to my mum (she’s 84) when she said she didn’t want the vaccine. I told her if she ends up on the ward they won’t send you to ICU. If you deteriorate on the ward, that’ll be it. Sounds harsh but I had to give her the hard word. Fortunately she had the jab. She’s actually had both of them now, she’s the only person I know at the moment who’s had both! They may make an exception with Tom though I suppose, with him being a sir and a national treasure so to speak. Imagine the backlash if he didn’t at least get an ICU bed?
I don't think any medic would want to be so cruel as to intubate a 100 year old.
We need to educate the public though you're right about intubation.
I remember seeing an interview stating that from a previous hospital admission that he has do not resuscitate order in his care plan so he might already have chosen to be for a ward-based ceiling of therapeutic intervention.
Any breakdown on how many of those were Pfizer/Moderna an how many were AZ?
The pro-China campaign in Hong Kong even questions the local government why not vaccinates the public without phase 3 data like China.
The thing is that China is the major culprit for the pandemic and they are worst in handling it. If they deal with it a bit better, there wouldn't have been a pandemic at all.