There never was a problem with his fitness, he just doesn't have the quality to warrant playing for us.
Lingard to join West Ham on loan
- Thread starter VeevaVee
- Start date
Was he better than Grealish yesterday?
As I said before his debut, I really don't like this loan. How does Ole see Mata and James as better options than Lingard? Inexplicable, something must have happened behind the scenes for Lingard to have been frozen out. We all know Lingard isn't a perfect player, but he offers clever link up play, movement, and versatility. Mata is simply pointless at this phase of his career, no idea how he's still at the club, and James is just not United quality, never was, never will be.
Mata was MotM for several games early in the season. Obviously he's not a great option for the future, but he's certainly still offering something at the moment. And James has the pace, and to a degree the potential to improve.
Lingard (who I really like) has been in awful form for over a year, and we can't give him enough game time to play himself out of it - so to me this move makes absolute sense.
I really hope he kicks on at West Ham. There was a period when he went on that scoring run for Birmingham City when on loan that I thought he could become a mainstay for us in a contributing role (like O'Shea, Fletcher, Fortune), and maybe even push for a starting spot. Hasn't worked out since for him or for United, but maybe this loan can get that momentum back again. He's got the knack for that role behind the forwards but it's such a competitive/high-profile position that needs regular effectiveness and not just in cups or the odd game.
That run lasted 1 game. He scored 4 goals on his debut, then didn't score in 2nd game, scored 1 goal in 3rd game. Next goal came after 20-25 games.
More of this and many clubs will want him in the next transfer window 
I don’t think Mata nor James should be Lingards competition. Lingard has always been much better centrally, he’s never getting in ahead of Bruno, and we’ve bought VdB for 40m.
That it?? I may be misremembering then. Thought he did quite well there.
He is, but he simply doesn't have the qualities to play as a no 10 in a 4231 on this team. We know, because they tried. And he's not suited to the flank either. He'll be much better suited to play in a 3-man midfield line on a team that likes to attack directly and energetically.
Fair play to him, great start. Always thought he would benefit playing for a team that gets a bit more space and time on the ball. He really didn't suit playing for us against teams defending for their lives.
Had more impact, so his stats will say so. But watch the game and Grealish has better touch, vision, passing, dribbling, ability to carry the ball etc.
I hope Villas boss took notice and is happy with Jesse as a makeweight in any deal
Because Jesse is in his prime and needs to play every week, not good enough for us.
Mata is over the hill and can teach our players something, a good experienced player in the dressing room.
James is young and deserves the opportunity to prove he can make it at United.
This is what the loan system is for and we need to get better at playing the game. Thankfully this season there are signs that we are learning.
Remember when one of our major shareholders asked whether the loan system was just a method to get around agent fees at the annual AGM? I think that lack of understanding, albeit from a non-footballing person, is symbolic of the generally old-fashioned approach the club took to transfers until recently.
Having players like Dalot, Lingard, Pereira, Chong etc...sat around playing 5 games as season does absolutely nothing for their resale value. Get them out on loan at weaker clubs with lower expectations, if possible in “stat-padding” leagues like the Eredivisie, the Bundesliga or the Championship and then flog them when they are flavour of the month.
Liverpool did it with Ibe, Brewster, the young CB who went to Wolves and Dominic Solanke. We hold on to players until they are well past their peak value.
Take Lingard for example, what could we have got for him two/three years ago? Maybe £35m/£40m after the world cup, if not more. Since then, he has barely played for us!
Also, players like Brandon Williams...came in as a stop-gap, did much better than expected but is never seriously going to be good enough to play 20 PL games a season for Utd. We could have sold for £20m+ easily last Summer. Now I think we would be lucky to get half that after watching him struggle for the u23s. Just get them sold and put a £30m buy back clause in, just on the off-chance they improve beyond all reasonable expectation.
The cut-off point should really be 20/21. If they haven’t shown that they can be a 20 game a season player by that point, get then on loan and get them sold in the Summer window.
Think about it, get £60m for Chong, Pereira, Williams and Lingard...that’s a new DM and we haven’t lost a single goal or assist from this year’s PL squad
Remember when one of our major shareholders asked whether the loan system was just a method to get around agent fees at the annual AGM? I think that lack of understanding, albeit from a non-footballing person, is symbolic of the generally old-fashioned approach the club took to transfers until recently.
Having players like Dalot, Lingard, Pereira, Chong etc...sat around playing 5 games as season does absolutely nothing for their resale value. Get them out on loan at weaker clubs with lower expectations, if possible in “stat-padding” leagues like the Eredivisie, the Bundesliga or the Championship and then flog them when they are flavour of the month.
Liverpool did it with Ibe, Brewster, the young CB who went to Wolves and Dominic Solanke. We hold on to players until they are well past their peak value.
Take Lingard for example, what could we have got for him two/three years ago? Maybe £35m/£40m after the world cup, if not more. Since then, he has barely played for us!
Also, players like Brandon Williams...came in as a stop-gap, did much better than expected but is never seriously going to be good enough to play 20 PL games a season for Utd. We could have sold for £20m+ easily last Summer. Now I think we would be lucky to get half that after watching him struggle for the u23s. Just get them sold and put a £30m buy back clause in, just on the off-chance they improve beyond all reasonable expectation.
The cut-off point should really be 20/21. If they haven’t shown that they can be a 20 game a season player by that point, get then on loan and get them sold in the Summer window.
Think about it, get £60m for Chong, Pereira, Williams and Lingard...that’s a new DM and we haven’t lost a single goal or assist from this year’s PL squad
Very good post agree with the part that we tend to keep our Deadwood longer then most but disagree with the part where we could get get 60m for Chong,Pereira,Williams and Lingard ,
You can't compare non English players sale to English Youngsters which have mostly brought money for Liverpool otherwise they have also found it hard to shift players for decent money.
Spot on. The only thing I'd quibble with is the 20/21 cut off point, I think there needs to be more of a case-by-case judgment.
You’re spot on @Lentwood — it’s something I’ve been banging on about for a while. We just love to stockpile players at the club and let their value whittle away rather than getting them in the best potential form elsewhere for a transfer. In the same vein I think we really ought to be utilising sell-on and buy-back clauses in a much more active way in the way the likes of Madrid do.
Great post. Totally agree. If Lingard does well, we either make a good profit when selling or he plays himself back into form.
We're definitely utilising the loan system more efficiently since Ole's come in and I believe that's because he has a long term plan. Garner and Chong would have been left to rot on the bench at their respective clubs under previous managers. Garner's also off to a good start at Forest.
I'm really pleased for Lingard that he's started off well. He's always put in 100% effort when he played but just seemed to lack the confidence over the last couple of years.
Agreed. Tuanzebe’s another.
As for me, I’m just delighted that Jesse can get some joy, must have been a miserable few years these last for him. It’s never good to have a player that age walking around never getting game time nor contributing, so it’s good for the whole of the squad I think.
Should have made this post in 2020. Would have got my vote for post of the year. Finally someone understands the purpose of the loan system, rather than thinking it’s just about game time for young players who will probably not even be good enough.
We can certainly get £60m based on what he’s talking about. If in the hypothetical situation all 4 play well, that’s £25m for Jesse and £10m for the rest at the very least. At least £55m there already.
Nobody is paying 25 m for Lingard he is not a youngster and he would be in his last year of contract as well we would do well to get even 15m for him and you are living in fantasy land if you believe Pereira or Chong would fetch anywhere near 20m combined .Williams might go for in and around 10 m if we are lucky.
Fast, sell him, while he's scored two goals and looks great.
Creatively no! But Grealish puts in those killer passes that his forwards don't take advantage of.
Grealish suits Utd far more
Are people going to start claiming he's better than Rashford like what happened with Smalling and Maguire...?
Against a lock block team defending a lead/draw at the 75th mins, I would take Mata off the bench over Lingard ten out of ten times. Against teams like Leeds, I would still take James over Lingard.
At least both Mata and James could offer something "special", though not always useful at every conditions.
What Lingard could offer are workrate and some goal threat from midfield, which are good, but not what we lack.
Oooh friend, West Ham friend.
Delighted for him, he is a United man through and through.
I don’t think you’re reading the full trail. We’re saying that IF we had loaned Lingard, say, 18months ago instead of letting him rot on the bench we COULD have got a significant transfer fee for him. Now you probably are looking at the £20m mark max and that’s if he has a fantastic end to the season.
Same with Pereira and Williams. Had they been sent on the right loan at the right time, we could have got £20m for each of them. Remember this is a world where Rhain Brewster and Dom Solanke for for £40m
I would think 15-20 m may be a reasonable expected range for Lingard, if he performs well at West Ham. Ditto for Pereira. Chong, probably not very much, less than 5m would be my guess. Williams I think is hard to say - depends on how his potential is assessed.
I don't think you are getting my point these were overhyped English youngster's that's why the Inflated fees can you give me examples of Liverpool selling their young foreign imports at exaggerated fees, though agree with Lingard's example English International on back of decent World Cup would have fetched decent money ideally we should have sold Tuanzebe after his Villa loan as well as Henderson last summer these would have been better examples for point you are trying to make.
I hope he does well too. However he's not good enough for us no matter how well he does there as he has different demands.
He's pretty good in that role when he's just required to run with the ball quickly in a counter-attack, we've seen that with him here. However we need someone who can also orchestrate, to pick open parked busses. He'll never have that ability.
He's one of those players who will look great at a mid-table team but will never be able to make the step up to regularly playing for a top club.
ETA - general point, not in response to Pintero specifically.
In 4/5 seasons between 15/16 and 19/20 he played more than 40 times for United. Utd Are a top club - and that’s playing regularly.
i agree, we have taken the bean counter's approach to selling and retaining players only to find out that the majority of them are unsellable only because of said approach when no prospective buyers want to match the wages we pay them with every extension. The players you mentioned are all youth products whom we don't really mind selling on the cheap right from Fergie's days because the priority was finding them a decent club. Of course among the more publicised and better talented ones there is definitely a case that can be made for trying to milk their transfer value for all it's worth.
In recent years we have had trouble getting rid of the likes of Rojo, Jones, Smalling, Darmian, Young, etc i.e those who were either bought to be important squad members or first teamers at some point of time. With the benefit of hindsight, we definitely could have gotten something more for some of them. At his peak even when out of favor i don't think Smalling was worth less than 20mn, a few PL clubs would have even paid 25 I'm sure.
We were not really playing at a top level through that period though. Our name/history dictated that we were a top club, but our performances were poor. Players of the calibre of Lingard were a reason why. Not the only reason of course but good to see we are moving away from these players and improving the first team and the squad.
15/16 5th in the league plus FA cup
16/17 6th in the league plus league cup plus europa
17/18 2nd in the league
18/19 6th in the league
19/20 3rd in the league
People saying his fee will be lower because of his age, are missing rule 1 of sales techniques.
Jesse is entering his prime years.
An experienced, medal winner, with fewer miles on the clock than would be expected, for an international player, with his work rate.
I'll even throw in a set of mats.
Jesse is entering his prime years.
An experienced, medal winner, with fewer miles on the clock than would be expected, for an international player, with his work rate.
I'll even throw in a set of mats.
Yes, and then he stopped being played regularly anymore because he wasn't deemed good enough. Which is where we are now.
Not in those seasons we weren't.
We were still a top club in that period but not a top side. He wouldn't have played that many games for United in any other period in United's Premier League history.
Managerial upheaval and spurts of good form in largely struggling side extended his stay at United.
This loan should occur in the summer, he could even have similar amounts of goals as Sterling by now.