I’d imagine/hope he is already on bed watch given he’s made two attempts already (presuming the reports are what we think they are) and given the profile of the case
The murder of Sarah Everard | Couzens sentenced to a whole-life order
- Thread starter VeevaVee
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Could he be trying to go for an insanity angle with this? Knowing there's a good chance (I'm guessing) he won't have too great a time in prison
Yes it’s probably sinking in that he‘ll be Billy no mates for the rest of his life, hated by all. He’ll probably get solitary, I just hope the prison guards give him hell.
I wonder how random this attack was.
I have a weird feeling that there may have a love interest to this story. Something just doesn’t link up properly especially since he has a wife and 2 kids, were in a lockdown, he’s a coppa. All of this raises the suspiciousness of being caught.
If I were to guess it was an opportunistic murder, probably sexual from his perspective and not a serial killer.
I have a weird feeling that there may have a love interest to this story. Something just doesn’t link up properly especially since he has a wife and 2 kids, were in a lockdown, he’s a coppa. All of this raises the suspiciousness of being caught.
If I were to guess it was an opportunistic murder, probably sexual from his perspective and not a serial killer.
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Sarah Everard: Met PC Wayne Couzens charged with murder
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56331948
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56331948
I agree with large parts of this and have attempted to voice a similar opinion on the issues and opinions raised this week. Overall, I don’t agree with the the stance of viewing “men” as a threat, the conversation moves towards pitting the genders against one another and away from meaningful change we can work together on.
I can also appreciate that there are degrees to this problem which shouldn’t be viewed equally in terms of their solutions. To expand on that I mean that the vast majority of sexual harassment is not such extreme cases of rape and murder, so I somewhat agree with the argument that men (although I think it should really be society as a whole) should be asking themselves what we can do to reduce instances e.g. calling out language or behaviour which have no place in the modern world.
On the extreme end I agree with you, I don’t believe there’s anything I can do differently as an individual to stop things like this from happening. Perhaps I view the situation too coldly but sadly it’s not realistic to hope for a world where evil people don’t exist and where you can feel totally safe walking through dark public areas at night. Our focus needs to be on minimising the number of instances through practical change and I hope to see the conversation steering more towards what such policies would be. For example reviewing the levels of police presence at high risk times/locations, ensuring adequate lighting of public areas and further investigation into the factors that are statistically more likely to lead to such people committing these crimes (as gender is simply too vague a characteristic).
Maybe, or he could genuinely have a serious mental illness which is as yet undiagnosed, or for which he previously stopped taking medication for, or has been triggered or exacerbated by recent events within his life.
Of course I am not defending an alleged murderer but having worked in criminal justice for almost five years, there is often more to things than a someone feeling like murdering another person.
Part of me thinks they should just let him top himself. There's going to be no "justice" for this regardless.
I can appreciate that men sometimes feel anxious late at night when they're walking alone, particularly with the rise in seemingly random knife attacks.
It's different for women, though.
It doesn't matter if you live in a sleepy village or an inner-city area, right from childhood girls are told that it's potentially dangerous to be out alone after dark. We are nearly always outmatched by men in terms of size and strength and we have virtually no defence. If a man was grabbed by another man, he'd at least have some chance of getting away.
The first "Reclaim the Night" campaign in the 1970s struck a chord with me - there was a song about it which said "what's the use of half a life?" It was originally a response to West Yorkshire police advising women to stay home at night because the Yorkshire Ripper was still on the loose. Maybe there was no other advice to give, but telling half the adult population to stay home because one man is a sick pervert just doesn't seem right.
It's different for women, though.
It doesn't matter if you live in a sleepy village or an inner-city area, right from childhood girls are told that it's potentially dangerous to be out alone after dark. We are nearly always outmatched by men in terms of size and strength and we have virtually no defence. If a man was grabbed by another man, he'd at least have some chance of getting away.
The first "Reclaim the Night" campaign in the 1970s struck a chord with me - there was a song about it which said "what's the use of half a life?" It was originally a response to West Yorkshire police advising women to stay home at night because the Yorkshire Ripper was still on the loose. Maybe there was no other advice to give, but telling half the adult population to stay home because one man is a sick pervert just doesn't seem right.
Without the full details it's hard to know.
He might have done it and then panicked, it might have been planned as a power fantasy. It might be revenge for something?
It will be interesting to find out how his partner is involved too?
They seemed to catch him pretty quickly too which suggests he maybe did it in his own car which is pretty amateur. It just seems very odd.
let’s not derail the thread again.
You want to discuss this nonsense??
Message me or start a new thread. This isn’t the place for it
I agree with this 100%. If we accused people of a certain skin colour or nationality or sexuality of being collectively responsible for the actions of individuals it would rightly be dismissed as crazy talk and completely inappropriate. The same should apply to gender. I’ll be 100% clear on this...to my mind there is NOTHING that the average person (man or woman) can do to prevent sick and perverted individuals committing awful crimes.
My social media threads are full of people posting about how “locker room conversations” between men lead to this kind of behaviour but is there one single shred of evidence for that? How do you even qualify that? Should we be defining what people can and can’t talk about in private conversations? What is it people think men talk about that would cause someone to brutally attack and murder an innocent person?
I think we have to be really careful now as a society. We’re becoming more partisan than ever and it seems you have to take a binary position on every issue. Left vs Right. Men vs Women. Boomers vs Millenials. Remainers vs Brexiteers. I don’t even want to get started on Race, Sexuality or Personal Identity.
It should be perfectly possibly to believe in women’s right and to champion them and to be disgusted at the actions of this man without somehow claiming 3.5BN of the World’s population need to take responsibility for those actions.
an average person reported this person for a sex crime 4 days earlier
I’ve never been party to a “locker room conversation” but from recollection, it was used as a defence for Trump when it came out that he just “grabbed women by the pussy”. So if that’s the norm and you don’t see that as toxically misogynistic then I don’t really know how to explain these conversations are damaging to inter-sex relationships. The idea that women are property and can be treated as men see fit, and it’s ok to say to these things in a locker room, surely contributes to women being kidnapped and murdered?
Once a perverted individual is right on the cusp of committing an act like this (both in terms of opportunity and psychology) then sure, it's very hard an average person to prevent them from doing so. There's a lot average people (particularly as a collective) can do to prevent people from reaching that point though. As @Silva pointed out, there was one in this case where someone presumably reported the offender for a lesser crime that could have prevented him from committing this more serious one.
Many (in fact most) of the "evil" people who commit acts like this aren't fated to do so, or inevitably going to progress to rape/murder. Interventions at various points in their lives could prevent them from reaching that point. And those earlier interventions are what people are looking for from one another.
But if people refuse to believe that there's any link between low stakes misogyny and higher stakes violent misogyny then those interventions become a lot rarer. And the suggestion that there's no link between them would be a pretty batshit one to make on logical grounds as it seem extremely unlikely that someone who rapes and/or murders women would have an entirely respectful attitude towards them up to that point.
A psychopath can go undetected for years, generally having a degree of intelligence and charm though.
Misogyny is as old as time. Would be interesting to see data on whether violence against women has decreased over the years due to changing attitudes.
The violence has probably decreased overall, but the reporting of it has probably gone up too. Back in the day the police didn't really care about much of it and sexual harassment at work was almost part of the job description.
Saucy comments, brushing against secretaries, buying gloves for junior staff members....that sort of thing.
That is a distant memory now.So did he know her? Or just a random attack?
Still finding the justification for the whole curfew silliness quite strange. The reasoning is that women have been ‘told what to do’ to avoid becoming a victim of crime, so now it’s time for men to get a taste of it.
There’s a long list of parallels here with getting mugged, and that also relies on the ability to be intimidating and strong enough to deal with what may occur, so without looking in to it, I’d bet my bottom dollar it is mostly men by a long way. It relies on exploiting natural (size) or unnatural (having earphones in) vulnerability, and you’re advised on ways to make yourself less of a target for the horrible people that commit these crimes. You take that advise on board if you’re someone who feels like you could be a victim one day, which I suspect is most people.
So I find it misguided and possibly a result of bandwagonning on social media that this is the message being spread today.
It would be great if we could stop criminals - rapists, murderers, and muggers, but even if we do do more to help somehow, they’ll still exist and therefore the advise will still stand, whether you choose to take it or not.
At the same time, I do get that it must be oppressive and frustrating having to think about it far more. But this was just advise on not becoming a victim for something that is very difficult to stop, no one was being told what to do.
There’s a long list of parallels here with getting mugged, and that also relies on the ability to be intimidating and strong enough to deal with what may occur, so without looking in to it, I’d bet my bottom dollar it is mostly men by a long way. It relies on exploiting natural (size) or unnatural (having earphones in) vulnerability, and you’re advised on ways to make yourself less of a target for the horrible people that commit these crimes. You take that advise on board if you’re someone who feels like you could be a victim one day, which I suspect is most people.
So I find it misguided and possibly a result of bandwagonning on social media that this is the message being spread today.
It would be great if we could stop criminals - rapists, murderers, and muggers, but even if we do do more to help somehow, they’ll still exist and therefore the advise will still stand, whether you choose to take it or not.
At the same time, I do get that it must be oppressive and frustrating having to think about it far more. But this was just advise on not becoming a victim for something that is very difficult to stop, no one was being told what to do.
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What has happened to the woman that helped this dude? I know she's out on bail but are they still pursuing her?
Alright, we get it, your son is perfect!
I think we should be talking about keeping streets safe for everyone, not just women. Walking around alone in the dark in quiet areas has always been advised against for everyone, and for good reason.
BBC stated that 73% (roughly) of violent crime is actually done against men. I know there seems to be this idea in society that men are spoiling for a fight and bring it on themselves, but this is not true. Men are in just as much danger if they wander around alone.
There is also the thing that men are naturally stronger than women, but we are not super heroes. One stab with a knife will kill a man as easily as a woman. You cannot fight an armed person whilst unarmed. Even people that have been trained how to fight say that your chances of beating an armed person is low.
In the end, I don't think there is anything you can really do about it. It is not nice to think about, but how do you stop this stuff from happening? Background checks only work on people who have done stuff before.
BBC stated that 73% (roughly) of violent crime is actually done against men. I know there seems to be this idea in society that men are spoiling for a fight and bring it on themselves, but this is not true. Men are in just as much danger if they wander around alone.
There is also the thing that men are naturally stronger than women, but we are not super heroes. One stab with a knife will kill a man as easily as a woman. You cannot fight an armed person whilst unarmed. Even people that have been trained how to fight say that your chances of beating an armed person is low.
In the end, I don't think there is anything you can really do about it. It is not nice to think about, but how do you stop this stuff from happening? Background checks only work on people who have done stuff before.
Gets better.Alright, we get it, your son is perfect!
I got 5 sons, each as handsome as the other
One of them has a disability and autism and he is the cutest of the lot. He is now 16 and due to his autism has no limitations in what he says or does, simply doesn't understand boundaries. So if he sees a nurse that is good looking he will always say things like "hello beautiful" (something he learnt of his grandad, as in his grandad says to him hello beautiful and not goes around saying it to nurses).
The weird thing is he has no boundaries yet no one finds some of what he says as "offensive" even if we are sometimes embarrassed by it. He gets swooned over when he comes out with "hello beautiful" etc
Again I don't want to take this off topic, but it's interesting seeing a breakdown of what happens in terms of violence and some of the reasoning behind some of it from institutes and people looking into these things.
For example the use of cocaine has a big impact on violence and sexual behaviour amongst people.
I think in these debates it's too easy to identify a solution to a perceived issue rather than "unpicking" the issue itself.
I suspect that being his partner/wife she possibly attempted to give Couzens a false alibi and was thus 'perverting the course of justice' or some other. I'm sure she'll go to trial.
Okay so, ignoring unreported crime and going off that stat alone, the violent crime done against men, the vast majority will be by men, and there lies the issue. Shocking I know.
The issue with the "it should be about everyone, not just women" argument is the same as the very stupid "all lives matter" bullshit.
Namely that while obviously all lives matter and obviously we should be combating violence perpetrated against men too, launching in to make that point when a particular group of people are trying to highlight problems that are particular to them only undermines their complaints. There's a time and a place for pointing out the issues men face but it absolutely isn't while women are trying to express their problems and vulnerabilities in reaction to the murder of a woman.
It all amounts to the same thing anyway which is trying to address the issue of men (because it is overwhelmingly men) inflicting violence on women and other men in these situations. People don't have to hijack a conversation and make it about themselves to benefit from it.
Namely that while obviously all lives matter and obviously we should be combating violence perpetrated against men too, launching in to make that point when a particular group of people are trying to highlight problems that are particular to them only undermines their complaints. There's a time and a place for pointing out the issues men face but it absolutely isn't while women are trying to express their problems and vulnerabilities in reaction to the murder of a woman.
It all amounts to the same thing anyway which is trying to address the issue of men (because it is overwhelmingly men) inflicting violence on women and other men in these situations. People don't have to hijack a conversation and make it about themselves to benefit from it.
The high profile discussions on the curfew idea have all been making an illustrative point, not suggesting it as a serious policy proposal. It's just designed to get people to think differently about how normal it is to hear certain messages given and how alien it is to hear others. If it was a literal suggestion then you'd be right it would be disproportionate and unworkable, plus it wouldn't even solve the majority of the issues as most violence against women is in the home, but I haven't seen it seriously put forward anywhere as something someone actually thinks is workable (as I said, I'm sure some people on Twitter have but nothing widespread that I've seen).
Others are right to point out that men are often victims of crimes too and actually I think more likely to be victims of random violent crimes outside. The common thread is that it's almost exclusively male perpetrators, which just underlines the fact we all have a shared interest in improving things. The "women's issue" bit of it is probably the sexual element to it and the level of regular fear/anxiety, which I'm sure some men feel but probably is less widespread.
She was arrested for ‘assisting an offender’ so they must have suspected that she had done a physical act to assist in some part of his involvement.
Perverting justice and assisting an offender are very different but it could have been a tactic to get as much evidence as possible at the time of his arrest
There's not a lot if anything that we can do with regards to the odd psychopath that of course women fear but what we can do is address the genuine fear that women experience every time a man behaves inappropriately toward them. Whether it is as a witness on the streets or in the workplace, when people see that, as likely as not men, then we should support women by interrupting the abuse and taking on the offender verbally or by some form of distraction offering support or whether it is by just reporting it then we are involved in some form of education at least. It calls for a bit of sense but we have to think how we would feel if the abuse were being directed at someone we loved, and of course being a bit brave, that is harder I admit for some and I'm not knocking that.
When you're a little girl, the boys at primary school will try to look up your skirt. You don't really know why they do it, you're only 6, but you know it feels a bit weird. Maybe you tell your mum when you get home, maybe you don't. If you do tell her, maybe she'll say "boys will be boys", or maybe she'll sigh in resignation and tell you to ignore them. She's been there before. We all have.
When you're 11, 12, 13, the boys at secondary school ping your bra strap, sometimes undoing it completely. You'll be sat there trying to pay attention to the teacher, and then you'll feel a sharp snap followed by sniggering. Boys will be boys, and if you say anything, they'll be really horrible to you. It's not worth it. You're 15 now, it's summer, you take off your jumper and your Music teacher compliments you on the bra he can see through your school shirt. You have to stay behind with him to do your GCSE coursework. He compliments you on your haircut and says you look like a rockstar. You know that's not okay but he's a teacher, so how can you say anything? Your insides are squirming and you look at the clock on the wall, willing the seconds to speed up so you can get out of there.
When you walk home from school, sometimes cars beep at you. Sometimes men shout stuff out the window at you. When you're at uni, most days you get your arse grabbed on the bus. Once, you're sat in a beer garden reading a book and a man sits next to you and starts masturbating through his trousers, murmuring "let me come on you, please let me come on you". You quietly stand up, trying not to shake - with fear, with disgust - and you go inside and tell the lad on the bar. He kicks the man out and bars him, offers to call the police. You thank him but you tell him not to bother. He asks you if you're okay, you lie and say you are. You're grateful for his kindness.
The cold, dark night air feels like it's about to grow a pair of hands and grab you. You love listening to music when you walk, but headphones aren't a great idea for a woman. You're hyper-aware of your surroundings, every sound from the trees, every crunch of a twig. You texted your mate, your partner, your mum to tell them you're on the way. It's an unsaid thing, an implication that everyone understands. "I'm on my way" means "I'm on my way, if I'm not back when I should be, start to worry". You wish you could just live your life and do what you want to do without setting yourself curfews for your own safety, but it's been this way for as long as you can remember now.
There's a man walking behind you - quite far behind you - but you feel your heart rate start to pick up. Your hands are stuffed in your pockets, and you tighten your grip around the house keys which are poking out between your knuckles. Frankly, you don't know why you do it - how exactly would it help, it'd probably just make your attacker more angry - but you do it all the same, because it's kind of comforting. Your mind is racing with possible scenarios, escape routes, what might be about to happen to you. You hope you just get mugged or raped, and it doesn't go any further than that. Please, God, don't let it go any further than that... but if it does, please let it be quick.
The man - perhaps sensing your discomfort - crosses over to the other side of the road and calls someone, possibly his wife. You release the breath you didn't even realise you'd been holding, and then you start to feel bad. Bad, because you thought those awful things about someone you don't know - he could be a lovely fella, for all you know. Bad, because you can't walk the streets without picturing the awful things you think might be about to happen to you. Bad, because you're scared all the time. Bad, because for all the nice men out there, there's men like Sarah Everard's attacker. Like Libby Squire's attacker.
Then you get angry. And that's all life is, for a woman. Feeling scared, feeling bad, feeling angry. Scared, bad, angry in the knowledge that it could be you next time. Scared, bad, angry because women will continue to be killed by men until the fiery death of the universe, and there's not a thing to be done about it.
My thoughts are with Sarah Everard's family and friends. May she rest in peace.
When you're 11, 12, 13, the boys at secondary school ping your bra strap, sometimes undoing it completely. You'll be sat there trying to pay attention to the teacher, and then you'll feel a sharp snap followed by sniggering. Boys will be boys, and if you say anything, they'll be really horrible to you. It's not worth it. You're 15 now, it's summer, you take off your jumper and your Music teacher compliments you on the bra he can see through your school shirt. You have to stay behind with him to do your GCSE coursework. He compliments you on your haircut and says you look like a rockstar. You know that's not okay but he's a teacher, so how can you say anything? Your insides are squirming and you look at the clock on the wall, willing the seconds to speed up so you can get out of there.
When you walk home from school, sometimes cars beep at you. Sometimes men shout stuff out the window at you. When you're at uni, most days you get your arse grabbed on the bus. Once, you're sat in a beer garden reading a book and a man sits next to you and starts masturbating through his trousers, murmuring "let me come on you, please let me come on you". You quietly stand up, trying not to shake - with fear, with disgust - and you go inside and tell the lad on the bar. He kicks the man out and bars him, offers to call the police. You thank him but you tell him not to bother. He asks you if you're okay, you lie and say you are. You're grateful for his kindness.
The cold, dark night air feels like it's about to grow a pair of hands and grab you. You love listening to music when you walk, but headphones aren't a great idea for a woman. You're hyper-aware of your surroundings, every sound from the trees, every crunch of a twig. You texted your mate, your partner, your mum to tell them you're on the way. It's an unsaid thing, an implication that everyone understands. "I'm on my way" means "I'm on my way, if I'm not back when I should be, start to worry". You wish you could just live your life and do what you want to do without setting yourself curfews for your own safety, but it's been this way for as long as you can remember now.
There's a man walking behind you - quite far behind you - but you feel your heart rate start to pick up. Your hands are stuffed in your pockets, and you tighten your grip around the house keys which are poking out between your knuckles. Frankly, you don't know why you do it - how exactly would it help, it'd probably just make your attacker more angry - but you do it all the same, because it's kind of comforting. Your mind is racing with possible scenarios, escape routes, what might be about to happen to you. You hope you just get mugged or raped, and it doesn't go any further than that. Please, God, don't let it go any further than that... but if it does, please let it be quick.
The man - perhaps sensing your discomfort - crosses over to the other side of the road and calls someone, possibly his wife. You release the breath you didn't even realise you'd been holding, and then you start to feel bad. Bad, because you thought those awful things about someone you don't know - he could be a lovely fella, for all you know. Bad, because you can't walk the streets without picturing the awful things you think might be about to happen to you. Bad, because you're scared all the time. Bad, because for all the nice men out there, there's men like Sarah Everard's attacker. Like Libby Squire's attacker.
Then you get angry. And that's all life is, for a woman. Feeling scared, feeling bad, feeling angry. Scared, bad, angry in the knowledge that it could be you next time. Scared, bad, angry because women will continue to be killed by men until the fiery death of the universe, and there's not a thing to be done about it.
My thoughts are with Sarah Everard's family and friends. May she rest in peace.
Maybe she hid or disposed of clothes or washed his car etc. Of course, maybe she was involved in the act but I was hoping that this wouldn't be the case of another male and female team.
I know it’s an illustrative point, but I think I addressed why, at least in my opinion, it doesn’t work, and I think as others and myself have touched upon, actually has the opposite effect of what should be the intention.
Just to be clear though, I’m solely talking about the curfew point here. I do think we can and should talk about how things can be improved, at least at the lower end of the spectrum where it’s most likely to have an effect.
That reddit post is overexaggerating a bit
Reads like a fan fiction written by a man. Username checks out.
There is potentially a lot of variables for her involvement. From completely innocent to making an excuse whilst unaware of the gravity of what was going on to being involved.
It will come out at some point but I wouldn't be surprised if her role was not that involved with the actual kidnap/murder, especially as she got released quite quickly. Don't think she would have been if more involved but could be wrong
Maybe you really know this to be the case, can I ask how and why?
Because that's not the experience of every woman. Perhaps a particularly vulnerable and unlucky one. There's no doubt woman may experience things detailed in the comment a few times in life. Which is disgusting. But to suggest there is a cycle of never-ending abuse felt by all woman across their entire life is very disingenuous.