Yup would much rather receive that 2nd place trophy everytime, oh wait!. Or would much rather get champions league qualification as it is the be all and end all, only to get knocked out in the group stages.
Solskjaer: Winning trophies is more of an ego thing for managers, league position is where true progress is seen
- Thread starter Hansi Fick
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That's a pretty damning statement.
He's right ... but it depends on the situation of the club and how long the manager has been in the role.
For example In Ole's position he is still relatively early into the rebuild, should he have won maybe 1 trophy so far like the FA cup last year ? I would say yes, but not winning it doesn't mean he's doing a bad job, however I would say he cannot repeat these same kind of comments next year and needs to be winning a trophy.
Look at Arsenal, they won a trophy last year and finished what 8th ? They could win the FA cup again this year and maybe the Europa (i severely doubt it) but are on course to finish 8th again , is that progress ? Opinions will differ but I don't think so and would take Ole's point and say league position shows a more true viewing of progression, especially if we finish 2nd with potentially 15-20 more points than last season and could still end the season with a trophy.
But then in the Pochettino argument, sure he done amazing to get Spurs into the top 4 for two or three seasons but never won a trophy in 5 years in charge, at that point the same argument cannot be used, it's progression but where do you lay the marker of success, that has to be winning silverware and if you aren't achieving that after 5 years then it's time to go.
I think we are progressing as a club and team under Ole and if we can finish 2nd comfortably with 75+ points and have a good run at winning a cup or even better win one then that's amazing, if we don't but still finish 2nd I am still fairly happy,
But next year is the real challenge, 3rd season in charge, he knows he has to produce a trophy and put up a really good fight until the end with winning the league, anything less imo we should be looking at alternatives.
For example In Ole's position he is still relatively early into the rebuild, should he have won maybe 1 trophy so far like the FA cup last year ? I would say yes, but not winning it doesn't mean he's doing a bad job, however I would say he cannot repeat these same kind of comments next year and needs to be winning a trophy.
Look at Arsenal, they won a trophy last year and finished what 8th ? They could win the FA cup again this year and maybe the Europa (i severely doubt it) but are on course to finish 8th again , is that progress ? Opinions will differ but I don't think so and would take Ole's point and say league position shows a more true viewing of progression, especially if we finish 2nd with potentially 15-20 more points than last season and could still end the season with a trophy.
But then in the Pochettino argument, sure he done amazing to get Spurs into the top 4 for two or three seasons but never won a trophy in 5 years in charge, at that point the same argument cannot be used, it's progression but where do you lay the marker of success, that has to be winning silverware and if you aren't achieving that after 5 years then it's time to go.
I think we are progressing as a club and team under Ole and if we can finish 2nd comfortably with 75+ points and have a good run at winning a cup or even better win one then that's amazing, if we don't but still finish 2nd I am still fairly happy,
But next year is the real challenge, 3rd season in charge, he knows he has to produce a trophy and put up a really good fight until the end with winning the league, anything less imo we should be looking at alternatives.
That's actually very true.
The tendency of many fans to dig in and obsess about things, sentences, words, that managers say in press conferences or interviews, weighing them every which way, getting agitated and upset about them (or rather often even just getting agitated and upset about interpretations and contortions they themselves draw from them), is something I find very annoying.
And therefore, the purpose of my citing Solskjaer is not to criticize him for saying this, but to appreciate the colossal irony of him saying the exact same thing as Pochettino a couple of years ago, which back then was taken as opportunity to produce laughably hyperbolic judgements and attacks by people who suddenly might find themselves within a glass house.
In which case the lesson to learn would be to calm down in the first place.
True to form
I’d rather finish 17th & win the CL then finish 2nd & win feck all. Nobody remembers who came 2nd or 3rd, you remember the champions & the major cup competition winners. I couldn’t tell you what league position Spurs & Arsenal finished in last season, genuinely no idea, but I can tell you Arsenal won the FA Cup.
The “United “Way” romance, which is the only reason this guy who relegated Cardiff is even in charge, is about winning trophies in style. This guy has us winning nothing while playing tumescent football more often than not. Someone explain to me why he’s in charge again?
The “United “Way” romance, which is the only reason this guy who relegated Cardiff is even in charge, is about winning trophies in style. This guy has us winning nothing while playing tumescent football more often than not. Someone explain to me why he’s in charge again?
The only reason we are second is because Chelsea had Lampard as manager and Liverpool played almost all the season with no defenders. We can forget about second next year. If we finish this season with no trophies that will be a failure. He's just getting the excuses ready in case we get knocked out of both cups.
That's not the point, ffs.
Or read Full interview/press conference transcript.
Who needs trophies anyway?
He is. Solskjaer doesn’t at any point say what the title of this thread is.
Which two things (staying calm/reading the whole thing) usually are synonymous
There is nothing wrong with them. Just people on here want to find drama. I know everyone is fed up due to COVID but this is a new low of shite.
I wonder whether Ole checked with his boss before coming out with this?
Maybe Woodward is now sufficiently confident that Top 4 is in the bag, and has instructed Ole to exit gracefully from the cups. Or am I being too cynical?
Maybe Woodward is now sufficiently confident that Top 4 is in the bag, and has instructed Ole to exit gracefully from the cups. Or am I being too cynical?
I understand the criticism but ultimately it’s such a nothing quote, and I feel like what he’s trying to say is that if you’re consistently finishing high in the league then trophies organically come to you.
It's not.
Anyways Sun journalist would be proud of this, how the relevant part was deleted to completely change what he meant/said. Then we have a mob here who don't even care, they just see the title and start banging their key boards asking for Ole's resignation and how he doesn't have winner mentality.
Even when the relevant bits are posted, it's of no use.
Also why do you assume that everyone who questioned Poch are supporting Ole now? There are so many Poch fans on this site, people defended him and they still defend him. There are people who are so much 'CV fans', who shat on him for saying that and they will criticize Ole for saying this.
League is the most important.. its the one I have always wanted.. even during the Fergie years.. Everything else is a bonus..
Obviously you dont want to downplay the significance of winning anything.. not sure what the context is or what the whole thing said.. I frankly dont care.. but broadly, totally agree.. I want to win the premier league again.. over any other trophy.. I'll take progress in the league over winning the FA cup or the Europa league.
End of the season.. regressing as a club compared to the domestic challengers but sneaking in a FA cup win (like Arsenal) is no good.
But... if top 4 is in the bag and a title challenge not really on, and we have an important game in a cup coming up.. I'd want us to prioritize the cup..
Obviously you dont want to downplay the significance of winning anything.. not sure what the context is or what the whole thing said.. I frankly dont care.. but broadly, totally agree.. I want to win the premier league again.. over any other trophy.. I'll take progress in the league over winning the FA cup or the Europa league.
End of the season.. regressing as a club compared to the domestic challengers but sneaking in a FA cup win (like Arsenal) is no good.
But... if top 4 is in the bag and a title challenge not really on, and we have an important game in a cup coming up.. I'd want us to prioritize the cup..
Yes you’re being too cynical, why would our own club not want to win trophies?
I completely agree. Caveat that with: League performance, points tally and GD. Not just being the best of a terrible bunch. But yes, I'd rather see United getting back to consistently averaging +80 points and have a healthy GD, rather than win an FA Cup. No question.
I would never assume that. So many different kinds of fans and opinions.
"Since the first year I arrived they told me that you have to win the Champions League," said the City boss, who won Europe's elite club competition twice as Barcelona manager.
"It is always on our shoulders but I'm not concerned about that. If you deserve it in football, you go through. If you don't, you don't."
"We are validated for the trophies we can win. The previous teams won. This team has to prove it."
Such a different approach from Guardiola.
"It is always on our shoulders but I'm not concerned about that. If you deserve it in football, you go through. If you don't, you don't."
"We are validated for the trophies we can win. The previous teams won. This team has to prove it."
Such a different approach from Guardiola.
Imagine being so obsessed with Manchester United. I've never even had the thought in my head to read or listen to what the Bayern Munich manager says.
Pep is saying this passive-aggressively though, he doesn't mean it.
Some of you don't know how to source full articles and interviews to generate proper context, which helps generate balanced comments.
Probably Lazio will beat us 5-2 now, tonight, instant karma.
It's not if you delete the part of the interview.
It's because of what he did to them in '99. Burns the soul.
This guy has lost it... United board can keep him and awa4d him a new contract but it will take team to nowhere. He just does not have it in him. Sometimes I wish our board had the swiftness of Chelsea's owner.
When isn't Pep passive aggressive?
Well I don't fully agree. Takes mentality to win cups and that shows ability to be winners.
Of course he is right that 38 games show the level you have more than 10? cup games, but I think the ability to raise yourself for the biggest game is very important.
Real did show it in CL for example and won it 3 times in a row. Sevilla have shown it in Europa league etc at a lower level.
That is more special than getting a few league wins.
I don't think Ole got that title winning mentality as a manager. He had as a player so maybe it will show as a manager too at some point.
Of course he is right that 38 games show the level you have more than 10? cup games, but I think the ability to raise yourself for the biggest game is very important.
Real did show it in CL for example and won it 3 times in a row. Sevilla have shown it in Europa league etc at a lower level.
That is more special than getting a few league wins.
I don't think Ole got that title winning mentality as a manager. He had as a player so maybe it will show as a manager too at some point.
Exactly.When isn't Pep passive aggressive?
But that's still he winning mentality that seperates the big clubs from the small time clubs. To feel the need to win every trophy and judge yourself critically by those expectations. Not peddle the excuses of small time clubs.
Surely Ole understands the effects winning a trophy have on players? Rooney Ronaldo as a team, didn't win anything until the league cup v Wigan. Huge catalyst for success it turned out to be.
Didn't you support Dortmund?We've made huge progress.
After 29 games last season we had 45 points and were in 5th place. (Sheffield United were two points behind with a game in hand)
After 29 games this season, we have 57 points and are in 2nd place. (Leicester are one point behind)
That actual position isn't exactly a fair reflection though. Liverpool have collapsed, and if they hadn't done so we'd still be in third.
Still, 45 points to 57 points is a huge jump - and that's with a very slow start.
Of course, that is only part of a broader picture:
2021 after 29 games: 57 points (Ole) final: ?
2020 after 29 games: 45 points (Ole) final: 3rd
2019 after 29 games: 58 points (Mou/Ole) final: 6th (2019 had an absolute collapse winning 2 of the last 9 games)
2018 after 29 games: 62 points (Mou) final: 2nd
2017 after 29 games: 54 points (Mou) final: 6th (EL Winners)
The table is only one part of the equation though. If you look at the players we had in 2018, when we finished 2nd, there are loads there that I think it was obvious at the time they wouldn't be with us long term; i.e. they wouldn't be winning the 2022 Champions League at Manchester United (either due to age or due to ability)
If you played the same game now, I think the picture is much better.
After 29 games last season we had 45 points and were in 5th place. (Sheffield United were two points behind with a game in hand)
After 29 games this season, we have 57 points and are in 2nd place. (Leicester are one point behind)
That actual position isn't exactly a fair reflection though. Liverpool have collapsed, and if they hadn't done so we'd still be in third.
Still, 45 points to 57 points is a huge jump - and that's with a very slow start.
Of course, that is only part of a broader picture:
2021 after 29 games: 57 points (Ole) final: ?
2020 after 29 games: 45 points (Ole) final: 3rd
2019 after 29 games: 58 points (Mou/Ole) final: 6th (2019 had an absolute collapse winning 2 of the last 9 games)
2018 after 29 games: 62 points (Mou) final: 2nd
2017 after 29 games: 54 points (Mou) final: 6th (EL Winners)
The table is only one part of the equation though. If you look at the players we had in 2018, when we finished 2nd, there are loads there that I think it was obvious at the time they wouldn't be with us long term; i.e. they wouldn't be winning the 2022 Champions League at Manchester United (either due to age or due to ability)
If you played the same game now, I think the picture is much better.
Correlation is not causation.
Full quote/comment by Ole:
"Of course, we are all wanting to win trophies at this club. But sometimes a trophy can hide the other facts of what is happening at the club (see Arsenal, Wigan). It's in the league position you see if you're progressing really. Sometimes in the cup tournaments, you might be lucky; you might be unlucky with draws and games that are decided on different factors. But, of course, we're aiming to win; that's what's required in football and you're always aiming to win trophies."
"I think you have to say that when you see the culture of what's happening every day, I feel a lot of improvement in the everyday routine, the everyday work. The boys have taken on everything I want. It's for others to assess how much we've improved. We're 12 points ahead of where we were in the league this time last season. I have been here for two and a half years of those years (since United last won a trophy in 2017) now and coming in, I felt a big rebuild had to be made. It's in the league position that you see if there has been progress. That's how you see if you are capable of coping with ups and downs."
"We need to win something and, if we play well, the trophies will return. But a trophy won't say 'we're back'. We need the consistency of being top of the league and then winning some trophies. A cup can hide that you are struggling a little bit."
"Of course, we are all wanting to win trophies at this club. But sometimes a trophy can hide the other facts of what is happening at the club (see Arsenal, Wigan). It's in the league position you see if you're progressing really. Sometimes in the cup tournaments, you might be lucky; you might be unlucky with draws and games that are decided on different factors. But, of course, we're aiming to win; that's what's required in football and you're always aiming to win trophies."
"I think you have to say that when you see the culture of what's happening every day, I feel a lot of improvement in the everyday routine, the everyday work. The boys have taken on everything I want. It's for others to assess how much we've improved. We're 12 points ahead of where we were in the league this time last season. I have been here for two and a half years of those years (since United last won a trophy in 2017) now and coming in, I felt a big rebuild had to be made. It's in the league position that you see if there has been progress. That's how you see if you are capable of coping with ups and downs."
"We need to win something and, if we play well, the trophies will return. But a trophy won't say 'we're back'. We need the consistency of being top of the league and then winning some trophies. A cup can hide that you are struggling a little bit."