There's no place for logic on Redcafe.
Solskjaer's contract
- Thread starter Amir
- Start date
That's not much of an argument though, is it? It's a smaller jump than Molde to United.
Promote this man. We need posters who can muster some fecking rational thinking.
We are certainly ahead of Chelsea, and I hope that stays that way. Fred improved under Ole, I think he's gone worse again. The same for Martial/Greenwood.
This isn't really the point is it? If clubs below us want to continue with failing managers, leave that to them. If the Spurs want to continue with Mourinho, which I think would be a bad decision for them, that's good for United. Chelsea replaced Lampard which wasnt doing a good job, with a much better proven manager and you can already see the change for them. The jury is out on Arteta I think, and Klopp is a proven manager that won them the league and CL not too long ago.
Those weren't all the poor results, this was another list of incidents where United have bottled good places they have gotten themselves into. This actually started in Ole's first six months here, when he United went on an amazing run, which he deserves credit for, but bottles after winning 2/9 last games in the Prem. Players have definitely improved under Ole, but some have right again regressed to their old level or worse. Done a fantastic job on Shaw, Lindelof, Rashford, signing of Bruno, he deserves credit for that. Equally there are many instances where his team just failed, 4 semi finals lost consecutively is not some coincidental stat, it's really bad.
Cheers mate
Here's the thing though. Solskjaer's points-per-game record in the league is 1.85. The five seasons before him, we had a points-per-game record of... 1.84. Basically, with two and a half years of work, we're... back at the level we were at before Mourinho's inevitable third-season meltdown. That's not much to show for two and a half years and €310m spent. It's nothing we haven't seen over the past 8 years: we're a team hovering around the 70-point mark, being a perennial top 4 contender.
It's not that he's doing an awful job, or 'actively harming the club' as someone else put it in one of these threads. He isn't. He's doing... a mediocre job, really. Nothing special, nothing that would warrant a contract extension right now, and with a 30% payrise to boot. It'd make much more sense to wait and see how we finish the season. Just like it would have made more sense to wait and see how we finish the season in 2018/19 and not make his contract permanent after a few giddy weeks - but we didn't wait and totally collapsed afterwards, finishing the season with what, 2 wins in 9?
Progress would be 2nd and EL this season and then title challenge, QF of the CL and trophy next season.
You win nothing coming 2nd-4th in the league, so for him to dismiss judging progress on winning trophies was disappointing, it's ingrained in the clubs DNA to win every trophy we're competing for.
So you're fearing that we're going to lose 4 ouf of the last 9 games while losing a total of 4 league games in the 29 matchweeks so far? Of which 3 came at the start of the season? AND the 5-7 places teams to go on winning streaks?
We have lost one game in the last 23 Premier League matches - The only club that can match that record is Manchester City. There is enough sample size to make a reasonable assumption that hey, we're not going to start losing games left and right.
I'll tell you why they are doing this now:
1) Signal effect to the players - Continuity
2) Signal effect to new signings - Continuity
3) Signal effect to backroom staff - Continuity
1-3 - Everyone gets peace of mind and knows what lies in the immediate future
4) The club won't go into the most important transfer window without the ability to tell signing players who will be the manager 6 months from now - Now THAT would be a sign of a poorly ran organization.
5) The club won't start the transfer window by spending time on contract talks for the manager when that time is significantly better spent getting players in AND out
The extension has absolutely nothing to do with other clubs poaching the manager. Zero. The only thing the club is signaling here is continued support of the current project that is progressing. There is no reason to put on the brakes and halt it in the middle of it. We've already made significant progress since previous season points wise, which was a goal.
The only reason anyone actually have a problem with this is that they want Ole to be fired so we can employ Nagelsmann or whatever hipster manager that is the new wine.
My ass anyone are going to actually make up their mind in 9 games, becaue you're soooo unsure wether you are on board or not. Anyone that likes this extension (myself included) are happy that the club is doing something productive: Sticking to a project without disrupting it for no reason. Anyone that dislikes this simply wants the manager fired for any number of reasons, all of them reactionary.
This quote is being so misrepresented all the time.
The point was that winning a cup can be a fluke. The Premier League is always going to be the big one and real progress is measaured on the table, not necessarily how lucky you were with cup draws.
Would be a catastrophic mistake to extend his contract. I can handle finishing 2nd this season, but its the consistent 6 at the back every single game that has sucked any enjoyment out of football.
I really, really hope the contract is dependent on him winning the Europa league and finishing 2nd in the league. If we go another season trophyless and just settle for top 4 then its a damning indication of the club's ambition.
Between 6 October 2018 and 2 March 2019, we lost two Premier League games out of 22. From March 2 to the end of the season, we lost 5 and won only 2. So a collapse is certainly not out of the question: there's quite recent precedent for such. I'm not saying it's likely but it's not as preposterous as you're pretending either.
I'm curious to who the outers would want in. There is no magic wand any manager can wave when it came to the buildingblocks Ole started with. As far as I can see he got rid of a lot of the deadwood, and still need better players in certain areas. It's not like the case of Tuchel or Hansi coming in to fix a ship that wasn't really broken. You needed a rebuild, unlike bayern under Kovac or chelsea under Lampard.
Who gives a feck. This club's major problem has always been Ed Woodward. As long as he is in the captain's cabin we will never get close to how the club was under SAF.
Ole has made progress but let's be honest with ourselves, the football has been mostly shite and he will only get away with it for so long unless we have a successful summer. But it's progress nonetheless. It's also smart to continue on this path but the manager needs to bring in better coaches. He could surprise the naysayers but it's very obvious he needs better footballing minds than the ones he has around him currently.
The intention is there at Manchester United, from bottom to top, but we just don't have the people to execute it competently.
I'm optimistic about our future even under the current circumstances but a few people at the club have their head too far up their own ass. Right now we are nothing special, made so much worse with the football media using every opportunity to beat us down. That could all change from one signing or at least two of our three forwards hitting some form.
Bottom line is calm the feck down because all the anger and pants wetting from supporters won't make a difference to how the club currently functions.
Ole has made progress but let's be honest with ourselves, the football has been mostly shite and he will only get away with it for so long unless we have a successful summer. But it's progress nonetheless. It's also smart to continue on this path but the manager needs to bring in better coaches. He could surprise the naysayers but it's very obvious he needs better footballing minds than the ones he has around him currently.
The intention is there at Manchester United, from bottom to top, but we just don't have the people to execute it competently.
I'm optimistic about our future even under the current circumstances but a few people at the club have their head too far up their own ass. Right now we are nothing special, made so much worse with the football media using every opportunity to beat us down. That could all change from one signing or at least two of our three forwards hitting some form.
Bottom line is calm the feck down because all the anger and pants wetting from supporters won't make a difference to how the club currently functions.
When was the last time a cup was won by a fluke? Wigan in 2013?
The only way progress is shown in the league is if you go from top 4 to title challengers in my opinion, going from 4th to 2nd with how volatile the PL has been the past couple of seasons is much of the same. Bring in winning a trophy on top of a 2nd place finish, then that shows progression.
Maybe not fluke, but luck of the draw matters quite a bit.
City haven't faced any decent side in any of their FA Cup winning runs, the toughest we faced in our FA Cup win under LVG was Everton, the toughest we faced in EL run was Ajax(?), and apart from facing City in the earlier rounds, we didn't face anyone when we last lifted LC.
There is a mental weakness in the squad, this has been touched on many times, we've had a lack of leadership on the pitch for a long time now. Nothings changed in that regard. Name one leader on the pitch for United?
The players have to take a large portion of blame for bottling those positions, that said it's fair to also level it at Ole as he's the manager. In my opinion losing four semi-finals can be seen as a sign of progression as much as it is a negative, cup competitions are a lottery, we've also had tough draws in the majority of competitions, that coupled with the lack of leaders on the pitch with a young team mean it's not beyond the realms of possibility for this to occur.
It is, but you know very well that's not what happened.
You also know there is no such thing as guarantees when it comes to manager appointments.
Just look at these two threads. This place was buzzing when we hired LvG and Jose and we all know how that turned out. Do we know Nagelsmann is going to do better? No. We dont. Any new appointment has a certain element of risk to it and the club has instead opted to play it safe
Besides, things are not as grim as some people would have it. We are second in the league and still have a fairly good chance at a trophy and with a comparatively young squad that will get better with age. But still we have people whinging because we cant keep up with Pep and City.
That was different IMO, players had a feel good factor due to Jose leaving and as Ole is a nice guy he gave them a huge boost.
You wouldn't get a feelgood factor having a manager that the board haven't backed with a new contract.
Sacking a manager that has done a decent job (Ole has done a decent job) to go for any sort of risky appointment would make us look utterly stupid.
Renew his contract, give him decent backing in the summer and go from there. If we finish second and win the Euopa that's a good season. More improvement next year and we are in a good place,
The lack of mental strength of the squad is just a damning indication of the manager as it is of the players. The manager still assembles and picks the team, the manager still selects the captain. He's been here for 3 years now so this is still very much his team now, so its not like anyone could continue making the point that he's inherited a ragtag bunch of bottlers. As for players being cowards and bottling it at crucial points, again thats on him - your job as manager is to motivate your players and overcome these hurdles. The fact that we almost always seem to be bottle it in semi finals or key points in the season is not a good look on him.
Yes, but APART from the morale, the youth brought through, the push up the league last season, the goals, the away form, the 2nd so far this season....
... what has Ole actually done for us?
(Welcome to the Caf
)Ask not what your Ole can do for you – ask what you can do for your Ole.Yes, but APART from the morale, the youth brought through, the push up the league last season, the goals, the away form, the 2nd so far this season....
... what has Ole actually done for us?
(Welcome to the Caf
Exactly what I am saying. Standards are so low.
I don't quite understand your first sentence. That's exactly what happened. He was managing Molde and then United hired him as a caretaker and then on a permanent basis. It was literally a jump from Molde to United.
And yes, every managerial appointment has risks. That's true. It's just I think a gamble is better than guaranteed mediocrity. From a business perspective, I'm wrong, of course: a manager who consistently gets top 4 is fantastic. In that sense, Ole is a safe-ish bet, admittedly: the players are happy enough with him and we'll always give him enough money to qualify for the CL. He won't want to go to another club, and he won't go into a meltdown if he doesn't get exactly what he wants. So it does make a certain amount of sense, it's just a bit depressing.
Of course there's an element of risk, but you need to take risks to be successful in football. Playing it safe can usually be a barrier to a club's ambitions.
Liverpool opted not to play it safe when they sacked Rodgers - a manager who in the previous season was a slip away from gifting them their first league title in decades, and replaced him with a German who had recently left Dortmund after a disastrous season. We all know what happened next.
United also took a risk with a certain young Scottish manager to replace Ron Atkinson, who at the time was the 'safe' option consistently keeping United in the top 4. The rest as we all know is history.
Conversely, United actually opted to play it safe by hiring 'proven' managers like LVG and Mourinho who ended up being anything but safe appointments in hindsight. Go figure.
You're a glass half empty type aren't you.
When was the last time United got into a title race?
When was the last time United won a trophy? It was with the previous manager, and also the manager that preceded him. None of our managers after SAF have been a big success, but at least half of them could boast silverware to their time here - Ole as of yet is not among them.
That’s why I said Ole takes responsibility for the inconsistency as well.
What I’m pointing out is that the team doesn’t have leadership on the pitch, that’s not by design, it just happens to be the case.
Plenty of times under SAF we would be playing poorly and strong leaders on the pitch would turn the performance around. We’ve gone from leaders in every position to zero leaders in the dressing room.
At the end of the day once the team is on the pitch it’s down to them to win a semi-final (or similar.)
We can clearly see Ole has brought the players closer together and they play for him, they have confidence and are pretty free-scoring - that’s what the manager is responsible for, but dragging yourself over the line as a team of players is on them, like all good teams.
We won FA cup under LvG but also had mostly easy route to it: West Ham, Everton, Palace. Won the Europa beating the likes of Anderlecht, Celta Vigo, Ajax being the only good team (not the level of that 2019 Ajax). Won the league cup having only City as quality opponent and it was the start of the competition, not semi-final like under Ole.
Trophies are always nice and fun but winning one doesn't mean you're on the right track. Liverpool won none prior to Champions league and Premier league in last 2 years. Not saying Ole will win us those big trophies, but I'm more satisfied with our team today than in 2016 or 2018.
I dont really see Rashford leaving, but being in a team that doesn't compete for top titles brings up two things.
First in order to bring/retain talent you have to overpay to attract them, second if a winning team comes calling for a player it will definitely unsettle them and may get to the point where the player wants to leave to actually win something.
Hypothetically lets say Madrid/Bayern come calling for Bruno, him being here for 3 years without winning anything , would we be able to retain him?
Good news. He deserves a new contract if we manage top 4 again. And it’s not like manager contracts cannot be broken earlier if they fail.
People ridicule the cultural reboot or whatever it is called like all Ole did was just that while finishing mid table.
If we finish top 4 again it will be for the first time since SAF left that we would finish top 4 (or even top 3) in the league twice in a row. This is good stuff and the league table over 76 games doesn’t lie.
We did Poundland shopping last summer instead of building on our strong end of season finish. We only need to have injuries to 2-3 first team players and our bench then already looks like it was put together for a U-19 competition.
Despite that we are currently in a good position for a top 3 finish again and have come far in the cup competitions as well despite difficult cup draws.
This shows me that with 2 quality additions we will improve further. Is it really too much to ask that a club like United would not be left with Amad and Shola as our only attacking options on the bench if two of our starting attacking players are injured? And this is even before we talk about my favourite DM position which urgently needs 1 quality addition.
People ridicule the cultural reboot or whatever it is called like all Ole did was just that while finishing mid table.
If we finish top 4 again it will be for the first time since SAF left that we would finish top 4 (or even top 3) in the league twice in a row. This is good stuff and the league table over 76 games doesn’t lie.
We did Poundland shopping last summer instead of building on our strong end of season finish. We only need to have injuries to 2-3 first team players and our bench then already looks like it was put together for a U-19 competition.
Despite that we are currently in a good position for a top 3 finish again and have come far in the cup competitions as well despite difficult cup draws.
This shows me that with 2 quality additions we will improve further. Is it really too much to ask that a club like United would not be left with Amad and Shola as our only attacking options on the bench if two of our starting attacking players are injured? And this is even before we talk about my favourite DM position which urgently needs 1 quality addition.
I see this argument, but it's not really tangible is it. That doesnt mean the argument is invalid ofcourse, but with Maguire (who captains club and country), Pogba who has led his team to WC victory, Bruno we have some leaders in the team. Then you have to a lesser extent De Gea/Henderson, McTominay, Rashford, Cavani as well. I don't know, maybe they don't have leadership qualities.
But when can we seperate between a lack of tactics which means United struggles to lay their will upon good opponents, or are tactically outclassed and our lack of leadership quality in the team.
Excuse my English, but City and United distanced themselves of the rest this season, United having a small lead. As soon as that happened, City just completely stretched away from us. Maybe it's not considered a title race because it was still quite early on in the season?
We should come to the point when we really should be ruthless. Top 4 is never enough. It´s been so long that people even forgot that we shouldn´t be figh´ting for the title every year but be the main contender while contesting the best clubs in Europe. We never got any close. Look at our progress in few years. It´s still very slow and little while our best players are getting into peak years. There is no excuse to be another 15 points behind winners or 25 behind both first and second like last year. Ole is doing 6/10 and ultimately 6/10 is never enough for once top team in the world. I am not saying we should sack him half season but slowly do our research and find the right manager to replace him when his contracts run out. If we could get 7/10 or 8/10 manager who could make 6/10 players into 7/10 or more and 7/10 to 8/10s or more we will see a big progress but our ambition seems to be dropping of after bruning ourselves with guaranteed managers who gone crazy or were past it or SAFs inept decision to recommend Moyes.
Hope Fletcher and Murtogh are ruthless and their camaraderie won´t stop them to make the needed change rather sooner than later. Now if we make at least top4 this year even though crazy points behindwinners without any trophy I don´t think it should be enough to keep manager who didn´t make our team progress enough. But at least we should back him for the last time in the summer and buy two/3 great players to make him challenge. If he can´t do it, we should part our ways very quickly.
Hope Fletcher and Murtogh are ruthless and their camaraderie won´t stop them to make the needed change rather sooner than later. Now if we make at least top4 this year even though crazy points behindwinners without any trophy I don´t think it should be enough to keep manager who didn´t make our team progress enough. But at least we should back him for the last time in the summer and buy two/3 great players to make him challenge. If he can´t do it, we should part our ways very quickly.
We sure are, I expect us to announce it before the international break is over.
What uncertainty? I mean the only one I can think about is a top club takinh Ole from us which I dont think is remotely likely at all.
Signing a new contract means feck if things go badly, we've seen that in multiple cases the latest example being Mourinho.
So why renew him right now? What stability will it bring?
That depends on your definition of 'good job'. The problem is, most people like Ole and he has done better than expected. But seeing the disjointed performance on the pitch makes everyone feel uneasy, its unfortunately symptomatic of house of cards if you will. Teams that go on to achieve great things show good football on the pitch, even if they don't win anything in the short term. Anyone getting the feeling we are playing 'good football' or even 'well drilled' football? All of us are hanging on to the 2nd place in the table to justify improvement, which is fair enough but if that slips away, not sure where Ole goes after that.
Why are you trying to get fake backing from your RedCafe friends."it's not a statistical argument" and you reference form in your own post.
Then you have the cheek to talk of intelligence! Wonder how momentum took Di Matteo and Jose when they won cups. This is such a hilarious argument. It's not even an argument, I've already called your BS out with examples, with stats too.
You keep your agenda, that's fine. I may just put you on ignore like 90% of the forum probably already have.
Nobody is your friend here. They aren’t going to take you under there wing little VP.
You might not of noticed but I was trying my hardest to ignore you in the first place. Go way
Well if we had actually won the Europa League last year then we wouldn't have ended up in a group with last years Champions League runners up and one of the semi finalists as well because you go straight into pot 1 and avoid the big guns early on.