2022 World Cup Qatar thread

[MikeeMike]

To be honest Im still trying to work it all out. The WC has been my whole life my favourite sporting event so there is part of me trying to explain this all away neatly to appease that but then there is part of me thats really uneasy and struggling with it all.

Have to say me too. FIFA (Blatter) awarding this is still shameful. Would have supported England if we announced an immediate boycott. I’ve been to every finals since 1998 , S.Africa has zero legacy since , as does Brazil. Many purpose built stadia are now in ruins
With Qatar, the alleged human rights abuse of construction workers is not reported , there is simply no grounds for a legacy and it just reaks of corruption.

Maybe time to disband FIFA and start afresh.

 

[Samid]

 

[Gringo]

Empty gestures. How about actually not playing and forfeiting Qatar.

 

[MikeeMike]

Empty gestures. How about actually not playing and forfeiting Qatar.

Sadly true. Hollow protest.

 

[Judas]

Yeah finding these protests a bit laughable really. Definition of empty gestures. The countries will all still play in the world cup, and plenty of the players are probably getting their wages paid by similar regimes, either now or in the future.

 

[Martial'sEmergingSmile]

Yep. A meaningful form of protest would be boycotting the competition. Silly t-shirts without any action is just social justice theatre.

 

[ROFLUTION]

Every change starts with some signalling that enough is enough. Let's not beat the German nationalteam up for showing action.

Also these players have a shot at WC every 4th year. Boycotting the competition is a big ask, for a decision they've never been a part of. Its the associations that should show responsibility In that regard and stand together if it is to mean anything. Players only have their voices. Boards have their pens.

 

[Gringo]

Players have the power. No players, no tournament. There would be a handful of nations ready to step in to host.

 

[SCP]

Players have the power. No players, no tournament. There would be a handful of nations ready to step in to host.

Ridiculous statement. Now Football tournaments would only be good if they were played in so called Western democracies? What’s the difference between playing a WC in Qatar or Russia? If some European countries or the United States have anything against the Qatar’s or Saudi Arabia’s of this life maybe they would do better on stopping to sell military equipment to them or supporting despotic regimes in the name of the so called liberal democracies. Or ask if any multinational wants to stop business with those countries then. Sure, the real problem here is a fecking football competition...

 

[OleBoiii]

Empty gestures. How about actually not playing and forfeiting Qatar.

Baby steps.

First there was online outrage, which lasted for years.
Then some smaller football clubs in Norway started publicly talking about how the tournament should be boycotted.
This inspired the Norwegian national team to wear those t-shirts. A mild gesture, but a crucial first step on the international scene nonetheless.
Then it spread to Germany, who did the same thing as Norway. But they are also a much bigger nation. It's no longer just a lone nation that probably wont qualify. It's potentially a trend.

Hopefully it will lead to a club actually boycotting. Preferably a nation that qualifies.

 

[Botim]

You could look at it two ways:

Fact: They're scumbags who mistreat immigrant workers (modern day slaves really) & their own citizens (particularly women), and sponsor terrorism.

Reaction A)
They don't deserve to host a prestigious tournament.
Therefore all democratic nations should boycott the WC.
Result ==> Qatar and by extension most of the islamic world will be pissed off. FIFA won't give a f*ck as long as they find another location for their cash cow.
However ... Where was the boycott of the Russia WC, or the Beijing Olympics? Where's the outrage over Nike and other brands exploiting workers? There'll be very little actual football if you start to boycott everything that's not ethically kosher.

Reaction B)
Let's take this opportunity to bring these issues to light.
The WC is the most watched sporting event in the world (bar the Olympics). Let's bring this issue up at every press conference. Let players wear protest shirts. Interview the actual workers. Let the fans unfold protest banners. Etc...
Result ==> Qatar and FIFA will be very embarrassed by this bad press and (hopefully) be froced to answer for something for once.
However ... They will still rake in the cash, will probably do everything in their power to censure any protest, and remain as corrupt as ever.

 

[MikeeMike]

You could look at it two ways:

Fact: They're scumbags who mistreat immigrant workers (modern day slaves really) & their own citizens (particularly women), and sponsor terrorism.

Reaction A)
They don't deserve to host a prestigious tournament.
Therefore all democratic nations should boycott the WC.
Result ==> Qatar and by extension most of the islamic world will be pissed off. FIFA won't give a f*ck as long as they find another location for their cash cow.
However ... Where was the boycott of the Russia WC, or the Beijing Olympics? Where's the outrage over Nike and other brands exploiting workers? There'll be very little actual football if you start to boycott everything that's not ethically kosher.

Reaction B)
Let's take this opportunity to bring these issues to light.
The WC is the most watched sporting event in the world (bar the Olympics). Let's bring this issue up at every press conference. Let players wear protest shirts. Interview the actual workers. Let the fans unfold protest banners. Etc...
Result ==> Qatar and FIFA will be very embarrassed by this bad press and (hopefully) be froced to answer for something for once.
However ... They will still rake in the cash, will probably do everything in their power to censure any protest, and remain as corrupt as ever.

Well thought out post . Could I add a C)

Full Boycott Qatar and all withdraw from Fifa umbrella.
Merge the Euros and WC (so every two years).
Full transparency of hosting nation bids and with clear agenda of post tournament legacy plans if new stadia are planned.
Voting rights include fans (proportional representation ) as well as individual country FAs

and (in jest) , no playoff between Australia and South American 5th place team.

 

[snk123]

You could look at it two ways:

Fact: They're scumbags who mistreat immigrant workers (modern day slaves really) & their own citizens (particularly women), and sponsor terrorism.

Reaction A)
They don't deserve to host a prestigious tournament.
Therefore all democratic nations should boycott the WC.
Result ==> Qatar and by extension most of the islamic world will be pissed off. FIFA won't give a f*ck as long as they find another location for their cash cow.
However ... Where was the boycott of the Russia WC, or the Beijing Olympics? Where's the outrage over Nike and other brands exploiting workers? There'll be very little actual football if you start to boycott everything that's not ethically kosher.

Reaction B)
Let's take this opportunity to bring these issues to light.
The WC is the most watched sporting event in the world (bar the Olympics). Let's bring this issue up at every press conference. Let players wear protest shirts. Interview the actual workers. Let the fans unfold protest banners. Etc...
Result ==> Qatar and FIFA will be very embarrassed by this bad press and (hopefully) be froced to answer for something for once.
However ... They will still rake in the cash, will probably do everything in their power to censure any protest, and remain as corrupt as ever.

Fact: Saudi Arabia and UAE also mistreat immigrant workers. US, UK and other western democracies sell them arms and also fund them. US also sponsors terrorism indirectly and has waged unjust wars on many countries. UK was also involved in an unjust war on Iraq that killed thousands - Saudi Arabia, US and others are currently bombing the shit out of Yemen and Syria. UK sold arms to Saudi Arabia to continue it's aggression against Syria and Yemen.

Reaction A) Feck all
Reaction B) Feck all

So why don't you guys stfu and stop with the hypocritical shit?

 

[MikeeMike]

Fact: Saudi Arabia and UAE also mistreat immigrant workers. US, UK and other western democracies sell them arms and also fund them. US also sponsors terrorism indirectly and has waged unjust wars on many countries. UK was also involved in an unjust war on Iraq that killed thousands - Saudi Arabia, US and others are currently bombing the shit out of Yemen and Syria. UK sold arms to Saudi Arabia to continue it's aggression against Syria and Yemen.

Reaction A) Feck all
Reaction B) Feck all

So why don't you guys stfu and stop with the hypocritical shit?

Well that escalated quickly from a football World Cup discussion. I’ll only ask in what way is it hypocritical? Cannot agree with that.

 

[Botim]

Fact: Saudi Arabia and UAE also mistreat immigrant workers. US, UK and other western democracies sell them arms and also fund them. US also sponsors terrorism indirectly and has waged unjust wars on many countries. UK was also involved in an unjust war on Iraq that killed thousands - Saudi Arabia, US and others are currently bombing the shit out of Yemen and Syria. UK sold arms to Saudi Arabia to continue it's aggression against Syria and Yemen.

Reaction A) Feck all
Reaction B) Feck all

So why don't you guys stfu and stop with the hypocritical shit?

Obviously there are plenty of other states that don't respect human rights (hence why I named Russia and China). There's a big difference though between global politics and a nation's regime openly mistreating people within its borders, I would think.

You don't see a problem with FIFA awarding a WC to a tiny desert state with no football tradition, that is rapidly building soon to be useless stadiums at the cost of thousands of human lives? Okay then...

 

[snk123]

Obviously there are plenty of other states that don't respect human rights (hence why I named Russia and China). There's a big difference though between global politics and a nation's regime openly mistreating people within its borders, I would think.

You don't see a problem with FIFA awarding a WC to a tiny desert state with no football tradition, that is rapidly building soon to be useless stadiums at the cost of thousands of human lives? Okay then...

The 2026 world cup is in US and Canada - what football tradition do they have? Heck, it's not even fecking called football there. Why is there a difference?

 

[MikeeMike]

The 2026 world cup is in US and Canada - what football tradition do they have? Heck, it's not even fecking called football there. Why is there a difference?

Well US has highest participation of any country.
Womens US team have won the world cup 4 times.
They have a proven infastruture to host such event.
They dont flog people for consuming alcohol.
Its not 50 degrees in summer so can take place in summer.
Anymore??

 

[snk123]

Well US has highest participation of any country.
Womens US team have won the world cup 4 times.
They have a proven infastruture to host such event.
They dont flog people for consuming alcohol.
Its not 50 degrees in summer so can take place in summer.
Anymore??

Yeah, because we're talking about the Women's world cup here?
The alcohol rule is for Muslims only so another BS reasoning.
Qatar is building state of the art infrastructure - many stadiums are already ready. It has a low population and fantastic roads network etc.

Also, in Qatar, a fecking lunatic doesn't go around on a killing spree with a legally purchased semi automatic assault rifle every now and then.

Treatment of workers, yes - it is an issue in the middle east and needs to be corrected. Qatar has done a lot for it. Taking the world cup away just reeks of political bias and hypocrisy.

 

[Raredaredevil]

Players have the power. No players, no tournament. There would be a handful of nations ready to step in to host.

Do you really think FIFA cares? If some of the bigger nations boycott, FIFA will just award their places to the next countries who will gladly be more than happy to take their place.

 

[MikeeMike]

Yeah, because we're talking about the Women's world cup here?
The alcohol rule is for Muslims only so another BS reasoning.
Qatar is building state of the art infrastructure - many stadiums are already ready. It has a low population and fantastic roads network etc.

Also, in Qatar, a fecking lunatic doesn't go around on a killing spree with a legally purchased semi automatic assault rifle every now and then.

Treatment of workers, yes - it is an issue in the middle east and needs to be corrected. Qatar has done a lot for it. Taking the world cup away just reeks of political bias and hypocrisy.

Well ok. A more reasoned reply but


Millions of fans want to visit world cup finals. Qatar has 45000 hotel rooms. Also unmarried couples cannot share. Massive undercapacity.
To drink Alcohol in public is illegal, fact.
Qatar has 14 (FOURTEEN) footbll clubs and US women would beat their national team if allowed to play football.
There is NO legacy plan. The stadiums will simply be discarded like Brazil, S.Africa.
Taking it away due to political bias (i have none) and hypocrisy (???) , no.
Boycotting is to highlight , firstly, human rights violations and secondly, the corruption that led to their selection as hosts.

I respect your point of view but struggling to find any reason whatsoever for Qatar hosting it.

 

[simonhch]

Yeah, because we're talking about the Women's world cup here?
The alcohol rule is for Muslims only so another BS reasoning.
Qatar is building state of the art infrastructure - many stadiums are already ready. It has a low population and fantastic roads network etc.

Also, in Qatar, a fecking lunatic doesn't go around on a killing spree with a legally purchased semi automatic assault rifle every now and then.

Treatment of workers, yes - it is an issue in the middle east and needs to be corrected. Qatar has done a lot for it. Taking the world cup away just reeks of political bias and hypocrisy.

Just an outrageous post. Qatar has built its stadiums on the back of pure slavery. Not low paid workers or poor working conditions, but forced subjugation. It’s is a stain on the whole world that we’ve been willing to turn a blind eye to this and will celebrate this tournament once it’s started. What has happened there has been an atrocity of the highest order.

 

[Raredaredevil]

The 2026 world cup is in US and Canada - what football tradition do they have? Heck, it's not even fecking called football there. Why is there a difference?

Well said. The fact USA and Canada can't even call football but soccer makes it a disgrace for them to host the World Cup.

 

[snk123]

Just an outrageous post. Qatar has built its stadiums on the back of pure slavery. Not low paid workers or poor working conditions, but forced subjugation. It’s is a stain on the whole world that we’ve been willing to turn a blind eye to this and will celebrate this tournament once it’s started. What has happened there has been an atrocity of the highest order.

Just an outrageous lie and load of hyperbolic BS. Qatar abolished the Kefala law and workers had option to leave and change jobs. (Something that still goes on in UAE and Saudi Arabia - yes the same countries UK and US sell arms to - just to point out the hypocrisy)

Qatar did more for the poor laborers than the entire middle east.

 

[snk123]

Well said. The fact USA and Canada can't even call football but soccer makes it a disgrace for them to host the World Cup.

Not really - it is not a disgrace when any country gets to host the world cup.

Its a “world” cup - the west doesn’t get to change where it should take place because of their political agendas.

 

[snk123]

Well ok. A more reasoned reply but


Millions of fans want to visit world cup finals. Qatar has 45000 hotel rooms. Also unmarried couples cannot share. Massive undercapacity.
To drink Alcohol in public is illegal, fact.
Qatar has 14 (FOURTEEN) footbll clubs and US women would beat their national team if allowed to play football.
There is NO legacy plan. The stadiums will simply be discarded like Brazil, S.Africa.
Taking it away due to political bias (i have none) and hypocrisy (???) , no.
Boycotting is to highlight , firstly, human rights violations and secondly, the corruption that led to their selection as hosts.

I respect your point of view but struggling to find any reason whatsoever for Qatar hosting it.

What you’re talking about are normal rules in a Muslim country - there are exceptions for foreigners and everything will be opened for the world cup for sure.

These arabs are crazy about football and the quality of the hosts as a football nation should not play a part in this discussion. Even if you bring it in - they are ranked 58th - higher than Canada 74 the co-hosts of 2026.

Qatar has money - lots of it - more than Brazil and South Africa combined to host a mega event.

They have newer, better stadiums - all the facilities. What they do with the stadiums afterwards doesn’t really matter.

 

[MikeeMike]

What you’re talking about are normal rules in a Muslim country - there are exceptions for foreigners and everything will be opened for the world cup for sure.

These arabs are crazy about football and the quality of the hosts as a football nation should not play a part in this discussion. Even if you bring it in - they are ranked 58th - higher than Canada 74 the co-hosts of 2026.

Qatar has money - lots of it - more than Brazil and South Africa combined to host a mega event.

They have newer, better stadiums - all the facilities. What they do with the stadiums afterwards doesn’t really matter.

Flippant and crass comment considering the exploitation and abuse of migrant workers.

“They have newer, better stadiums - all the facilities. What they do with the stadiums afterwards doesn’t really matter.”
Which is exactly the polar opposite of #1 FIFA criteria for selection.

If you are happy with a corrupt bidding process and enforced slave labour to build amazing stadiums then I find it hard to understand.

 

[The Boy]

Just an outrageous lie and load of hyperbolic BS. Qatar abolished the Kefala law and workers had option to leave and change jobs. (Something that still goes on in UAE and Saudi Arabia - yes the same countries UK and US sell arms to - just to point out the hypocrisy)

Qatar did more for the poor laborers than the entire middle east.

Is that you Emir?

 

[do.ob]

Everything about this is just a disgrace. Everyone knows the vote was 100% a product of corruption, yet the decision stands. The country is incapable of hosting the tournament in the summer. A dozen stadiums will be built and discarded at the expense of human lives and in times where people should be concerned with climate change. Qatar is like 20 times smaller than the smallest country to host a World Cup in the modern game. There is not a single redeeming quality about it.

But don't worry, the whataboutism merchants have arrived in the thread.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Empty gestures. How about actually not playing and forfeiting Qatar.

Not to mention half that team play for Bayern, a club whose main sponsor is Qatar Airways.

 

[justsomebloke]

I'm not strongly in either camp, for my part. I'm really pissed about the decision to award the tournament to Qatar, for a number of reasons, but ultimately I look forward to the football. I think an excellent way of avoiding such predicaments would be for FIFA to show some fecking judgment, and avoid awarding major tournaments to countries that make zero sense as hosts from a footballing, political or human rights perspective.

I don't think what the Norwegians and Germans are doing is an empty gesture. But without being overly cynical, there might be an element here of doing something like this partly because it helps avoiding the more extreme alternative, which is to boycott the tournament altogether.

fun fact: Norway and West Germany were, if I remember correctly, the only European countries who chose to boycott the 1980 olympics in Moscow over the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

 

[La Vecchia Signora]

It is not about how they treat immigrants and it is bad but it is about their religion.

Here in UK the great country, immigrants are treated badly. An immigrant won a million pound from a local lottery, but when they found out that he doesn’t have documents they said they can’t give him the money because he doesn’t have a passport.

Police don’t do their job properly for example, someone destroyed my car’s side mirrors and while I was reporting the criminal he came out of no where and took my phone and run away. It is been 3 weeks and nothing has done by the police. They even told me that it is possible they can’t do anything about it and pass to a court.

Another story, a white girl hit my friend’s head with a bottle instead of taking him to hospital they took him to the police station for interview.When he asked them why, they said he touched her private part and she hit him for self defence. After the interview they took to hospital and he got stitches. He contacted police with his solicitor they said same thing. He asked them to see the clubs CCTV, but they said it wasn’t working that night. He didn’t give up and one day they called him telling him to quit or he will be in a big trouble that is the police who suppose to protect the people.

There is homeless people every corner of the country asking you money to buy food.

Alcohol, cigarettes, Weed and drugs are like water, almost everyone use them. Let’s talk about work. One person works 12 hours I know it is not like in Qatar but there are some big problems related to jobs in here.

In London stabbing with knives is like a culture. Young people are stabbing like crazy. London is not safe anymore.

Most of those things I mentioned are not as issues in Qatar. It is very safe country. And as I said it is not about their treatment for immigrants.

 

[Botim]

It is not about how they treat immigrants and it is bad but it is about their religion.

Oh please

That is such a pathetic excuse.

Like nobody criticises atheist China. Or Belarus, or Myanmar.

It is 100% about human rights abuses.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Well said. The fact USA and Canada can't even call football but soccer makes it a disgrace for them to host the World Cup.

Brain-dead argument.

The term "soccer" originated in the UK.

Italy calls it "calcio" - guess they shouldn't be allowed to ever host any tournaments either.

 

[FerociousCorgis]

didnt qatar go out and pretty much recruit a national team? Thought i had read they were being very liberal with who they were awarding citizenship to in order to get their quality up and try and improve ranking.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

Qatar has 14 (FOURTEEN) footbll clubs and US women would beat their national team if allowed to play football.

Hehe, good one. Maybe u12.

 

[Acrobat7]

Is that you Emir?

He is definitely working for Qatar‘s PR department.

 

[stevoc]

It is not about how they treat immigrants and it is bad but it is about their religion.

Here in UK the great country, immigrants are treated badly. An immigrant won a million pound from a local lottery, but when they found out that he doesn’t have documents they said they can’t give him the money because he doesn’t have a passport.

Police don’t do their job properly for example, someone destroyed my car’s side mirrors and while I was reporting the criminal he came out of no where and took my phone and run away. It is been 3 weeks and nothing has done by the police. They even told me that it is possible they can’t do anything about it and pass to a court.

Another story, a white girl hit my friend’s head with a bottle instead of taking him to hospital they took him to the police station for interview.When he asked them why, they said he touched her private part and she hit him for self defence. After the interview they took to hospital and he got stitches. He contacted police with his solicitor they said same thing. He asked them to see the clubs CCTV, but they said it wasn’t working that night. He didn’t give up and one day they called him telling him to quit or he will be in a big trouble that is the police who suppose to protect the people.

There is homeless people every corner of the country asking you money to buy food.

Alcohol, cigarettes, Weed and drugs are like water, almost everyone use them. Let’s talk about work. One person works 12 hours I know it is not like in Qatar but there are some big problems related to jobs in here.

In London stabbing with knives is like a culture. Young people are stabbing like crazy. London is not safe anymore.

Most of those things I mentioned are not as issues in Qatar. It is very safe country. And as I said it is not about their treatment for immigrants.

I'm sure it is unless of course you work in construction.

 

[stevoc]

Yeah, because we're talking about the Women's world cup here?
The alcohol rule is for Muslims only so another BS reasoning.
Qatar is building state of the art infrastructure - many stadiums are already ready. It has a low population and fantastic roads network etc.

Also, in Qatar, a fecking lunatic doesn't go around on a killing spree with a legally purchased semi automatic assault rifle every now and then.

Treatment of workers, yes - it is an issue in the middle east and needs to be corrected. Qatar has done a lot for it. Taking the world cup away just reeks of political bias and hypocrisy.

Commendable but it seems like they could have done just a bit more.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-...grant-worker-deaths-qatar-fifa-world-cup-2022

 

[Wibble]

It is not about how they treat immigrants and it is bad but it is about their religion.

It really is about how workers lives are treated like a renewable resource. Aggravated by them bribing their way to winning the bid.

Here in UK the great country, immigrants are treated badly. An immigrant won a million pound from a local lottery, but when they found out that he doesn’t have documents they said they can’t give him the money because he doesn’t have a passport.

Did that actually happen?

Police don’t do their job properly for example, someone destroyed my car’s side mirrors and while I was reporting the criminal he came out of no where and took my phone and run away. It is been 3 weeks and nothing has done by the police. They even told me that it is possible they can’t do anything about it and pass to a court.

What haven't they done? I'm sure resources are such that they aren't putting a squad of hundreds on the case but unless you have find my phone (or simialr) installed and can give them location info I'm not sure what they could do. Also not sure what a court can do as that normally comes after someone is arrested and charged.

Another story, a white girl hit my friend’s head with a bottle instead of taking him to hospital they took him to the police station for interview.When he asked them why, they said he touched her private part and she hit him for self defence. After the interview they took to hospital and he got stitches. He contacted police with his solicitor they said same thing. He asked them to see the clubs CCTV, but they said it wasn’t working that night. He didn’t give up and one day they called him telling him to quit or he will be in a big trouble that is the police who suppose to protect the people.

If there is no CCTV footage then if each side has witnesses to back up each story then I doubt the police could get a case that has a reasonable chance of getting a conviction. If your friend hasn't been charged are the police annoyed because he keeps contacting them to push the girl getting charged? If that is the case I'd advise he does so via his solicitor as your friend might be putting his case to emotively or not clearly enough.

There is homeless people every corner of the country asking you money to buy food.

Same in major cities all over the world. Although not in Qatar or UAE as they would be arrested and imprisoned or deported or both.

Alcohol, cigarettes, Weed and drugs are like water, almost everyone use them.

Well living in an Islamic country would certainly reduce most of those things.

Let’s talk about work. One person works 12 hours I know it is not like in Qatar but there are some big problems related to jobs in here.

There are issues with employment in many places with some working huge hours when many are unemployed and even more under-employed. But you can't compare that to the conditions experienced by migrant workers in places like Qatar where 6500 migrants have lost their lives since the World Cup bid was won.

In London stabbing with knives is like a culture. Young people are stabbing like crazy. London is not safe anymore.

Knife crime is a concern particularly in some suburbs but your statement is a huge over simplification.

Most of those things I mentioned are not as issues in Qatar. It is very safe country. And as I said it is not about their treatment for immigrants.

I've lived in UAE which is quite similar and it is safe unless you are jailed for being (or accused of being) gay, or lose your job and go to prison because you can't pay your credit card bill, or accidentally get on the wrong side of a member of the huge royal family or a million other things. I did not like it at all and I'd take living in London every day of the week (a city I really wouldn't want to live in).

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Yeah, because we're talking about the Women's world cup here?
The alcohol rule is for Muslims only so another BS reasoning.
Qatar is building state of the art infrastructure - many stadiums are already ready. It has a low population and fantastic roads network etc.

Also, in Qatar, a fecking lunatic doesn't go around on a killing spree with a legally purchased semi automatic assault rifle every now and then.

Treatment of workers, yes - it is an issue in the middle east and needs to be corrected. Qatar has done a lot for it. Taking the world cup away just reeks of political bias and hypocrisy.

You sound like a worrisome person.

Taking it away would right a wrong. Yes it’s political bias. It’s football saying ‘We don’t give a Fcuk about much. But we won’t put money before human rights abuses’.

There has to be a line somewhere. If it’s not here, then where?