Yes I can see that as well. You can also observe that convergence when you see the increasing number of wealthy London teams in the PL.I understand that there has been a cyclical element to football but there is a tenancy for economic strength to converge to a centre and that centre developing sufficient financial clout to dominate long term. I can see that happening to the PL with it attracting all the best players, becoming an international superleague of its own
Nobody said that. The only thing that might(emphasis on might) have been lucky was the timing. The PL didn't get there first because luck, it did because it moved first, because it was run much better than the other leaguesI find it abit dismissive to just label the PL success as being lucky to get there first, when the other big European leagues still haven't matched some of the core features of the premier league:
Infrastructure:
Visible fans
Better stadium lighting
Camera angles
Quality of the pitch
Germany has all of that, but they also have the tradition of not spending much money on players unlike EPL.I find it abit dismissive to just label the PL success as being lucky to get there first, when the other big European leagues still haven't matched some of the core features of the premier league:
Infrastructure:
Visible fans
Better stadium lighting
Camera angles
Quality of the pitch
I think its less due to the financial side of things and more just the player pool from specific countries. France and England have easily the deepest and best player pools right now, most English players stay in England while in France I always feel like the premier league was the main one for them to join.You never know what’s round the corner but there are indicators that the PL could dominate for a longer period of time. Personally I’d be pretty surprised if the English sides could dominate like the Spanish sides did for the past decade. I think this transfer window will be key in the wake of Covid. I’d say it’s an opportunity for the English sides. I think that Chelsea and City will make big moves. If United and Liverpool do is another matter.
That's the way it seems to go. From 1977 to 1982, the European Cup didn't leave England.Football is cyclical. Plenty on here with longer memories will remember a time when Italian teams dominated in Europe. The Spanish clubs are just teams in transition. English teams "dominating" (which they aren't by the way) won't last forever, they are just in the upward trajectory of their cycle.
That's definitely an interesting point to consider, and I agree that plays a part, although you can't really ignore money. France basically has a conveyor belt of talented players at the moment, and I'd argue money is the reason they end up in England, as basically every club can pay more than their European counterpart. And because of financial differences and just the sheer quantity of good players, French players have been good value signings compared to a lot of domestic players. There seems to be a similar trend in Germany regarding French talent. So I don't think it's really possible to look at French players in the Premier League without considering financial reasons, because I don't think it's due to cultural reasons.I think its less due to the financial side of things and more just the player pool from specific countries. France and England have easily the deepest and best player pools right now, most English players stay in England while in France I always feel like the premier league was the main one for them to join.
Who does Italy have? Verratti and Donnarumma to an extent? And Verratti chose PSG money long ago.
Spain? They have a few promising u20 players but I don't remember the last time they had as few top players as now. None of the key players from Real Madrid or Barcelona are Spanish and in their peaks. Man City have Rodri who wasn't even starting in the CL semi as they preferred 35 year old Fernandinho. Who does Argentina have, after the generation of Messi/Aguero/Di Maria? Brazil has Ederson and Allisson, but goalkeepers are hardly game changers. Neymar is 29. Fabinho and Firmino are good but Firmino not really world class and not up to the usual level of top Brazilian players. Jesus is decent but nothing special. Some promising young guys like Vinicius and Rodrygo, but nothing more than somewhat promising (and hardly even elite level youngsters like they had in the past).
Italy, Spain, Brazil and Argentinian players are probably the lowest quality and depth that they've been in my memory. That's the reason the Serie A and La Liga are struggling and declining. It'll turn around, but they're going to struggle for a bit until the talent wave comes back to them like it did in the late 2000's for Spain (Italy has been pretty dead for most of the past 15 years tbh).
I think its less due to the financial side of things and more just the player pool from specific countries. France and England have easily the deepest and best player pools right now, most English players stay in England while in France I always feel like the premier league was the main one for them to join.
Who does Italy have? Verratti and Donnarumma to an extent? And Verratti chose PSG money long ago.
Spain? They have a few promising u20 players but I don't remember the last time they had as few top players as now. None of the key players from Real Madrid or Barcelona are Spanish and in their peaks. Man City have Rodri who wasn't even starting in the CL semi as they preferred 35 year old Fernandinho. Who does Argentina have, after the generation of Messi/Aguero/Di Maria? Brazil has Ederson and Allisson, but goalkeepers are hardly game changers. Neymar is 29. Fabinho and Firmino are good but Firmino not really world class and not up to the usual level of top Brazilian players. Jesus is decent but nothing special. Some promising young guys like Vinicius and Rodrygo, but nothing more than somewhat promising (and hardly even elite level youngsters like they had in the past).
Italy, Spain, Brazil and Argentinian players are probably the lowest quality and depth that they've been in my memory. That's the reason the Serie A and La Liga are struggling and declining. It'll turn around, but they're going to struggle for a bit until the talent wave comes back to them like it did in the late 2000's for Spain (Italy has been pretty dead for most of the past 15 years tbh).
This.That's definitely an interesting point to consider, and I agree that plays a part, although you can't really ignore money. France basically has a conveyor belt of talented players at the moment, and I'd argue money is the reason they end up in England, as basically every club can pay more than their European counterpart. And because of financial differences and just the sheer quantity of good players, French players have been good value signings compared to a lot of domestic players. There seems to be a similar trend in Germany regarding French talent. So I don't think it's really possible to look at French players in the Premier League without considering financial reasons, because I don't think it's due to cultural reasons.
Is the Seria A really in decline? Juventus clearly are, and Napoli has had better teams in recent years, but overall I feel it's been a steady incline from a worse state. Inter is much improved, Atalanta is an exciting newcomer at the top. Roma and Lazio aren't the most stable , but they've had worse teams. And Milan seem to be on an upward trajectory as well. I can't really judge the rest of the league, but I don't get the feeling that the league is declining. If anything it seems to be slowly recovering, but maybe someone who follows the Seria A more closely than I do will know better.
I think it's easy to come to the conclusion that a league is struggling when the established clubs are going through weaker phases, and sometimes that's true. I think that sort of applies to Spain at the moment, although I think again it just gets amplified when the teams playing in Europe struggle. Other times the rest of a league's level might not really have changed, but it's hard to judge. It's a strange year to really draw any conclusions anyway.
I'd say a bit earlier for French players, with Wenger bringing quite a few over from 97-98, eg Petit, Viera, Anelka, Henry, Pires etc...This.
Before Cantona, there were barely any french player in English football, the trend didn't change until the 2000s.
Historically the first destiny of top french players were Italy and Spain, but since italian football is in financial crisis you don't see top tier french players in Italy anymore...now they have England as first destiny, unless Real Madrid,Barcelona, or Bayern Munich call them of course.
That's because before Cantona, you were in the pre-Bosman era. Foreign players weren't common because players didn't become free agents at the end of their contracts. Also top french players playing abroad was a rare thing.This.
Before Cantona, there were barely any french player in English football, the trend didn't change until the 2000s.
Historically the first destiny of top french players were Italy and Spain, but since italian football is in financial crisis you don't see top tier french players in Italy anymore...now they have England as first destiny, unless Real Madrid,Barcelona, or Bayern Munich call them of course.
No one pays attention to such people, who also believe he couldn't do it on a cold wet windy Tuesday night at Stoke.It's been like these for ages and is nothing new.
This is why some people dont rate the GOAT as high for not trying a new league and adapting to different tactics and methods be it the PL or even anything else.
To be fair there is a cultural gap that will be very difficult to bridge. PL fans tend to spend a lot of time watching the table and only giving importance to on pitch performances based on league tables narratives, I was actually baffled by the threads picturing "how the league actually looks like", people seem to appreciate them while I don't give a damn about it.Thread in a nutshell
PL fans: it's because the PL is so competitive
Others: well actually the PL title race has been competitive only once in the past 5 years, unlike title races in other leagues
PL fans: ... it's because the PL is so competitive...
Plus the foreign player quota, etc.That's because before Cantona, you were in the pre-Bosman era. Foreign players weren't common because players didn't become free agents at the end of their contracts.
Yeah it's a really reductive way of gauging quality and the competitive nature of a league.To be fair there is a cultural gap that will be very difficult to bridge. PL fans tend to spend a lot of time watching the table and only giving importance to on pitch performances based on league tables narratives, I was actually baffled by the threads picturing "how the league actually looks like", people seem to appreciate them while I don't give a damn about it.
From South America and Eastern Europe definitely but even in the case of Eastern/central Europe players it was not common. For France I can only remember three top players before 1992, Kopa, Six and Platini.Plus the foreign player quota, etc.
Still, it's probably fair to say that English football saw an influx of foreign (meaning non-British/non-Irish) players to a (much) lesser extent than Italian or Spanish football in the pre-Bosman years (starting however far back you want to go).
It would make for an interesting comparison:
Spain, Italy, Germany, England:
Top ten players in each country (domestic league, obviously - not national team): How many foreigners?
In England the number would be...zero or close to zero all through the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s.
In Spain you'd see several as early as the 50s, obviously - or before that, even. Italy not far behind, probably.
Of course, part of the reason for this has less to do with football (certainly football as we know it today) and more to do with history (as such).
That isnt true. In the early days of big foreigners coming to the premiership it was those past there peak like Gullit and Vialli at the end of contracts past there peaks. But the league they came from was full of foreigners and many top French players too. They simply didnt come to our league as it was considered inferior rightly or wrongly as was the quality of football and of course the money. It is more to do with money enticing more an dmroe foreigners and the thought the football improved which attracted bigger players. How many big players not past there peak really have even moved on free contracts under the Bosman ruling, here or abroad, it rarely happens as clubs protect there assets and players use it to get bigger contracts.That's because before Cantona, you were in the pre-Bosman era. Foreign players weren't common because players didn't become free agents at the end of their contracts. Also top french players playing abroad was a rare thing.
Yes - but French football wasn't all that between the late 50s and the late 70s - in terms of producing big players. So, there's that.For France I can only remember three top players before 1992, Kopa, Six and Platini.
What isn't true? French players were playing in France before 92, you will struggle to name a handful of french players that were playing abroad between 1950 and 1992, let alone many.That isnt true. In the early days of big foreigners coming to the premiership it was those past there peak like Gullit and Vialli at the end of contracts past there peaks. But the league they came from was full of foreigners and many top French players too. They simply didnt come to our league as it was considered inferior rightly or wrongly as was the quality of football and of course the money. It is more to do with money enticing more an dmroe foreigners and the thought the football improved which attracted bigger players. How many big players not past there peak really have even moved on free contracts under the Bosman ruling, here or abroad, it rarely happens as clubs protect there assets and players use it to get bigger contracts.
I think all this "the biggest players come here now its powerful"......I see in this thread, simply isnt true either, how many world class star players at the peak or reaching it has our league actually signed, its very few
That's what I said and nothing else. Also french clubs had sugar daddies, it was closer to what the Top 14 is today.Yes - but French football wasn't all that between the late 50s and the late 70s - in terms of producing big players. So, there's that.
Of course - the South American connection is a huge factor (Argentina for Italy - and pretty much the rest of the continent for Spain).
It is remarkable - from a contemporary view - that so few, hardly anyone, of the great French 80s generation played abroad. That - however - is clearly a matter of football history: it was a different world, simply. Players generally didn't move abroad to the extent we see today: foreign quota, Bosman, etc.
I know, mate - not disagreeing.That's what I said and nothing else.
Wasnt the Bosman ruling 95 or 96? Platini, Papin, Desailly all played there before this and this was a period where Marseille were one of the best sides in Europe. And as I mentioned, how is that even relevant to good European players in the premiership as hardly any of the really good ones have come on free transfers anyway? The point that there were not good foreign players in the premiership due to the Bosman ruling isnt true. Sure people will name more, but the whole history of the premiership, I can only think of Ballack as a big free transfer and maybe Okocha who wasnt a household name though he should have been, that were not players considered past there peak, that is two players in 30 odd yearsWhat isn't true? French players were playing in France before 92, you will struggle to name a handful of french players that were playing abroad between 1950 and 1992, let alone many.
The post I responded to had Cantona as a point of reference and said that french players used to move to other countries before that which isn't true. The reason the bosman ruling is important is because clubs had no incentive to sell players and the point wasn't centered around the Premiership but transfers in general and foreign transfers in particular, it was a completely different era with fewer transfers and even fewer international transfers, it wasn't a specificity of the premiership.Wasnt the Bosman ruling 95 or 96? Platini, Papin, Desailly all played there before this and this was a period where Marseille were one of the best sides in Europe. And as I mentioned, how is that even relevant to good European players in the premiership as hardly any of the really good ones have come on free transfers anyway? The point that there were not good foreign players in the premiership due to the Bosman ruling isnt true. Sure people will name more, but the whole history of the premiership, I can only think of Ballack as a big free transfer and maybe Okocha who wasnt a household name though he should have been, that were not players considered past there peak, that is two players in 30 odd years
Completely agree. If things keep going the way they are, there will be a European Super League. It will just be called the Premier League.With all the money over here, and even the Super powers from abroad unable to compete financially, the best players will invariably end up in our league. Is the rest of Europe become some sort of wasteland? In the CL now, our 3rd, 4th or 5th best team could probably beat almost anyone on the continent. In the EL, no country’s 3rd to 6th best stand a chance against an equivalent from England. We’re on the brink of our second all English CL final and EL final in 3 years.
Ultimately, is this level of PL strength good for football as a whole? Do we want a situation where there isn’t much left outside? Inter won their league with PL cast offs. Great clubs like Juve and the Spanish ones are skint and can’t compete. Will the whole point or prestige of European football become lessened if the only teams that can really challenge you are from within your own league?
Some may feel ‘feck them, this is great’ - but if nobody else has any money outside of the PL, then the PL in itself basically becomes the Champions League. There’s more value in winning it than the CL. The team 6th in our league could win that. Real and Atletico, who are fighting it out for La Liga were both easily disposed of by Chelsea, a team that hasn’t been in the PL title race all season.
I know it’s early days yet in any longer term prediction, but I’m just looking at the financial forecasts more than anything. The situation won’t change, and as the league’s decline, they will just lose sponsorship money. I wouldn’t be surprised if West Ham make the top 4 or top 6, go out and spend big money, then start slapping top teams about in Europe next season themselves.
Germany has. TBH, the bundesliga probably has the best content. They legitimately create content of youtube for fans of the league such as player analysis and highlights packages. They really are heavily engaged with their fans without the petty cheapness of Sky. If they had a real strong contender to Bayern like we did with Arsenal, this is a league that would skyrocket in viewership.I find it abit dismissive to just label the PL success as being lucky to get there first, when the other big European leagues still haven't matched some of the core features of the premier league:
Infrastructure:
Visible fans
Better stadium lighting
Camera angles
Quality of the pitch
It is recovering, but their so behind it might actually be insurmountable. Their league was already poorly managed to begin with, even in the 90s. Their teams were already finding it difficult to fill the stadiums due to the poor standard and their inability to deal with their ultras. They still haven't made improvements on their pitches, camera angles, digitization or even their tv deals. The calciopoli scandal basically burst a bubble that had already existed long before. Revenues falling due to player departures in 2006, exposed the poor standards in other features of the league.That's definitely an interesting point to consider, and I agree that plays a part, although you can't really ignore money. France basically has a conveyor belt of talented players at the moment, and I'd argue money is the reason they end up in England, as basically every club can pay more than their European counterpart. And because of financial differences and just the sheer quantity of good players, French players have been good value signings compared to a lot of domestic players. There seems to be a similar trend in Germany regarding French talent. So I don't think it's really possible to look at French players in the Premier League without considering financial reasons, because I don't think it's due to cultural reasons.
Is the Seria A really in decline? Juventus clearly are, and Napoli has had better teams in recent years, but overall I feel it's been a steady incline from a worse state. Inter is much improved, Atalanta is an exciting newcomer at the top. Roma and Lazio aren't the most stable , but they've had worse teams. And Milan seem to be on an upward trajectory as well. I can't really judge the rest of the league, but I don't get the feeling that the league is declining. If anything it seems to be slowly recovering, but maybe someone who follows the Seria A more closely than I do will know better.
I think it's easy to come to the conclusion that a league is struggling when the established clubs are going through weaker phases, and sometimes that's true. I think that sort of applies to Spain at the moment, although I think again it just gets amplified when the teams playing in Europe struggle. Other times the rest of a league's level might not really have changed, but it's hard to judge. It's a strange year to really draw any conclusions anyway.
No it wouldn't. Did viewership skyrocket when Dortmund were on top for a few years?Germany has. TBH, the bundesliga probably has the best content. They legitimately create content of youtube for fans of the league such as player analysis and highlights packages. They really are heavily engaged with their fans without the petty cheapness of Sky. If they had a real strong contender to Bayern like we did with Arsenal, this is a league that would skyrocket in viewership.
