Brilliant Premier League, but at what cost to the rest of football?

[giorno]

How many Spanish clubs have won the European Cup/CL?

That's relevant to the discussion...how? Are you saying english football has been helped by greater historical variety in success and a more local/community based fans rather than 2 or 3 big clubs hoovering up most of the fans? Because sure, why not

There's nothing to fix? As a United fan I start every season not even sure we'll make the CL spots, that there's a genuine chance that a Leicester or Spurs could finish above us, that's competition which is why it's the most watched league, the others it's practically ovrr before it's started most seasons.

There is no internal fix to be made. To break the duopoly Spanish football needs an Abramovich or an oil state to buy Valencia, Atletico Madrid and Sevilla. A less lopsided distribution of TV rights doesn't do anything to change things

I'll just answer this post but it goes to the others as well, don't you think that the amount of money going to teams lower down is the reason there are no guarantees anymore?

Manchester City look like a pretty fecking guaranteed thing right now...

@Boavista i guess agree to disagree there. I think losing €80/90M in revenue would have a pretty significant impact on madrid/barcelona. Conversely, an extra €10/30M wouldn't make nearly as much of a difference for the smaller clubs in terms of being competitive

 

[Rozay]

Fair enough. Not sure what it has to do with the topic mind you.

Well it clearly relates to the post I responded to, which stated that this will be over soon as the Spanish clubs still spend loads, look at what they have done just the other day.

 

[André Dominguez]

I remember back in the late 90s people discussing that Serie A money was weakening all other leagues in Europe. This was in a year that Serie A teams bought some of La Liga and other top leagues top players several seasons by absurd amounts of money (for that time period).

I still remember when veterans came from Serie A to the Premier League and would still deliver good performances. As long as the EPL keeps offering entretainment and fresh products, money will keep rolling in, unless some other country shows up with a better marketing strategy and comepte for the tv money, which can tottally happen on mid.term.

 

[Rozay]

But the reason they can't make those signings in 2021 isn't because they are poorer but because they spent "poorly" in the last 5-6 years. Barcelona and Real Madrid are currently the biggest earners in Football and generate significantly more revenue than any club not named Manchester United.

They earn big but in Real’s case, they have a stadium to finance. In Barca’s case, I agree - they are fiscally irresponsible.

 

[do.ob]

Why make it about United, Liverpool might well miss out on top 4 this season, Chelsea are also not guaranteed, and Spurs had a consistent run of CL finishes and have now dipped, it speaks to a competitive leagur. When your league is won by the same team 9 times in a row there's clearly issues, no need to be salty about it.

You were the one who used United's struggles to make an argument. Chelsea struggle to make top four, because they shot themselves in the foot by hiring Lampard. The same can be said about Spurs with Mourinho. Does Dortmund struggling mightily with top four or Schalke getting relegated as dead last two years after making CL knockouts speak of a competitive league for you? No? Why?

People like you just keep repeating the same buzzwords with little regard for logical consistency. At one point you claim money should be shifted from top teams to bottom teams, the next post you say the problem is Bayern's dominance, which is based on them having more money than other top teams, teams you want to take even more money away from.

 

[Devil may care]

No Liverpool issues aren't systemic, in fact it's interesting to note that out of the top 7 Liverpool are the only team that wouldn't top a league that only include themselves and the bottom 10. The issue is Liverpool themselves otherwise the same phenomenon would apply to teams that were below them last season but the other 6 teams easily dominate the bottom 10. But more importantly the wealthiest PL teams are significantly wealthier than their competition just an example Liverpool and United revenues are 300m over Everton's.

As for the spending comparison with foreign clubs, it's pointless to look at outlays because you are talking about clubs that do not operate in the same market. No equivalent to Newcastle will be dumb enough to spend 40m on Joelinton and better teams will get similar or better players for half of his price.

I think us, West Ham and Leicester have been better this season and conbined with Liverpool's inexplicable drop in form has led to where they are, but there's no other league where this would be feasible as even if Bayern or Juve slipped there aren't the teams with the resources to capitalize on the dip.

The point was that the teams in La Liga and the Bundesliga are practically paupers beliw the main 3 where as every team is eating well in the PL, there's no upward trajectory for teams in those leagues, where there are teams in the PL that can genuinely look to progress from their current position and threaten the established elite.

 

[JPRouve]

I think us, West Ham and Leicester have been better this season and conbined with Liverpool's inexplicable drop in form has led to where they are, but there's no other league where this would be feasible as even if Bayern or Juve slipped there aren't the teams with the resources to capitalize on the dip.

The point was that the teams in La Liga and the Bundesliga are practically paupers beliw the main 3 where as every team is eating well in the PL, there's no upward trajectory for teams in those leagues, where there are teams in the PL that can genuinely look to progress from their current position and threaten the established elite.

That's because Liverpool were new comers at the top and not an actual "very" top club, currently that would be City who have been in the top 2, 4 times in the last 4 years and are on pass to win a third title in 4 years. Liverpool are your Dortmund, not Bayern.

 

[giorno]

I think us, West Ham and Leicester have been better this season and conbined with Liverpool's inexplicable drop in form has led to where they are, but there's no other league where this would be feasible as even if Bayern or Juve slipped there aren't the teams with the resources to capitalize on the dip.

The point was that the teams in La Liga and the Bundesliga are practically paupers beliw the main 3 where as every team is eating well in the PL, there's no upward trajectory for teams in those leagues, where there are teams in the PL that can genuinely look to progress from their current position and threaten the established elite.

Pie is bigger in the PL. You're also still looking at things through the lens of a Manchester United fan.

Over the last 4 years, the PL sent 5 different teams to the CL. Same as La Liga. There have been 3 different clubs finishing in the top 2. Same as la liga. 2 different winners. Should i go on?

 

[JPRouve]

They earn big but in Real’s case, they have a stadium to finance. In Barca’s case, I agree - they are fiscally irresponsible.

But that's a choice, any club that decides to invest hundreds of millions in infrastructure will have its budget temporarily limited in other areas. So I do hope that we agree on the fact that Barcelona and Real Madrid are wealthy but one decided to invest in its infrastructure which is a good long term plan and the other is dumber than a bag of rocks.

 

[Wolf1992]

It is impressive to have had so many PL teams in the final the last years.
But how many english players or coaches actually played or coached in those finals?
Of course it makes life easy as a club when you can buy all the players you want and don`t have to care if your nationalteam ever wins something. But when the people in charge aren`t english anyway who should care?
It`s a bit like being proud of having finished a videogame that you could not finish yourself - so you had your friend come over and do it for you.

This, i believe the negative side effect of PL teams buying good players from abroad(because they have the money to do it) is that they have troubles developing their own talent...making the English NT look underwhelming.

Their record at Euro is really underwhelming, i believe England is even historically behind Russia in number of matches won, them losing to Iceland in 2016 was totally shameful.
I can't imagine France or Germany getting knocked out by Iceland, no matter how bad they play sometimes.
I mean France made Iceland look like a bunch of amateurs in QF, i couldn't believe England couldn't even outscore such a poor team.

You can't have everything i guess.

 

[Devil may care]

You were the one who used United's struggles to make an argument. Chelsea struggle to make top four, because they shot themselves in the foot by hiring Lampard. The same can be said about Spurs with Mourinho. Does Dortmund struggling mightily with top four or Schalke getting relegated as dead last two years after making CL knockouts speak of a competitive league for you? No? Why?

I used examples of Chelsea, United, Liverpool and Spurs, the fluctuations in the success of our major sides is the thing that makes the PL standout. Any league where a team wins it 9 times in a row isn't competitive, point blank.

 

[Devil may care]

Pie is bigger in the PL. You're also still looking at things through the lens of a Manchester United fan.

Over the last 4 years, the PL sent 5 different teams to the CL. Same as La Liga. There have been 3 different clubs finishing in the top 2. Same as la liga. 2 different winners. Should i go on?

I'm not looking at it from a Man United fan perspective, the uncertainty is with multiple teams in the PL, and we are seeing improvements in the teams below, La Liga has been won by the same 2 teams for the last decade, Italy and Germany have had the same winner 9 seasons in a row, in that time the PL has been won by 4 different teams, none of them more than twice in a row, no matter how you twist it the competitive disparity exists.

 

[Devil may care]

That's because Liverpool were new comers at the top and not an actual "very" top club, currently that would be City who have been in the top 2, 4 times in the last 4 years and are on pass to win a third title in 4 years. Liverpool are your Dortmund, not Bayern.

Well believe me i hope that is the case but lets see next season, to go from winning the CL and finishing 2nd, to winning the PL the next season, to suddenly potentially finishing outside the top 6 feels like an anomaly to me.

 

[do.ob]

I used examples of Chelsea, United, Liverpool and Spurs, the fluctuations in the success of our major sides is the thing that makes the PL standout. Any league where a team wins it 9 times in a row isn't competitive, point blank.

When you talk about Bundesliga everything but first place is irrelevant. When you talk about La Liga I assume it's then entirely irrelevant that City are currently cruising to their third title in three years while Atletico are looking to make it three different winners in three years and it's all about what happens around top four.
It's like hearing a Maga hat talking about FREEDOM.

 

[Devil may care]

When you talk about Bundesliga everything but first place is irrelevant. When you talk about La Liga I assume it's then entirely irrelevant that City are currently cruising to their third title in three years while Atletico are looking to make it three different winners in three years and it's all about what happens around top four.
It's like hearing a Maga hat talking about FREEDOM(TM).

You are hilariously salty dude, 9 seasons of the same winner and you're trying to call someone else Trumplike, feck outta here.

 

[JPRouve]

Well believe me i hope that is the case but lets see next season, to go from winning the CL and finishing 2nd, to winning the PL the next season, to suddenly potentially finishing outside the top 6 feels like an anomaly to me.

It's an anomaly which is why you can't use it as an example of a systemic process. It's not due to the PL but due to Liverpool themselves.

It's a bit like Monaco going from L1 champions to being relegated.

 

[BridgeBanter]

Eventually the financial doping of City and Chelsea will render all the proper clubs as irrelevant in the CL and then the Pl will largely be a wasteland, so I wouldn’t get too smug

You sound ridiculous. United has the financial means to complete..full stop. Whether the Glazers choose to do so is another thing entirely.

 

[do.ob]

You are hilariously salty dude, 9 seasons of the same winner and you're trying to call someone else Trumplike, feck outta here.

I have no problem admitting that Bayern's dominance is unhealthy. But that doesn't make your mental gymnastics any less ridiculous. Competitive is your buzzword so you lazily try to fit logic and shift goalposts to arrive at your pre determined conclusion.

 

[Devil may care]

It's an anomaly which is why you can't use it as an example of a systemic process. It's not due to the PL but due to Liverpool themselves.

It's a bit like Monaco going from L1 champions to being relegated.

I think the key is though, there are teams ready to capitalize if a team slips in the PL, the established teams get away with it in other leagues.

 

[Devil may care]

I have no problem admitting that Bayern's dominance is unhealthy. But that doesn't make your mental gymnastics any less ridiculous. Competitive is your buzzword so you lazily try to fit logic and shift goalposts to arrive at your pre determined conclusion.

I haven't done any gymnastics, I'm telling you the PL is more competitive than the other leagues, it's pretty fecking obvious to everybody in football but you and a few others feel like you need to be knights in shining armor for your one horse leagues and pretzel yourselves to try and make it so, let it go dog it's over, I'm going to go and watch my badly ran, unpredictable team play some football.

If you reply i wont be but you can have the last word if you want.

 

[giorno]

I'm not looking at it from a Man United fan perspective, the uncertainty is with multiple teams in the PL, and we are seeing improvements in the teams below, La Liga has been won by the same 2 teams for the last decade, Italy and Germany have had the same winner 9 seasons in a row, in that time the PL has been won by 4 different teams, none of them more than twice in a row, no matter how you twist it the competitive disparity exists.

PL winners in the last decade: manchester united*(at this point in time the level of top PL sides was fairly low. That United side might have been the best PL side of the era, and it had nothing on the best versions of madrid/barcelona), manchester city, chelsea, leicester, liverpool. 5 different teams. One of which was only possible because the level of the top of the league that particularly season was pathetic.

La liga has had 3 different winners. All of whom made CL finals over the same period. With City this season, that's the 5th PL side to make a CL final in the last decade

So when what it comes down to is, the PL has had 2 more great sides than La Liga over this period. Nobody won the spanish league more than twice in a row over that period either.

2 more top sides. That is all the difference between the two

Well believe me i hope that is the case but lets see next season, to go from winning the CL and finishing 2nd, to winning the PL the next season, to suddenly potentially finishing outside the top 6 feels like an anomaly to me.

Liverpool are having a particularly poor season, and the PL is strong these days. The real difference for the PL compared to other leagues is the ability to build on good results. Spurs managed to make it to the CL and were able to build up on that. Perhaps Leicester might do the same. Conversely, Valencia haven't been able to do the same. All the same, Spurs have never truly been close to winning the PL. Their best PL season is very much comparable to what Sevilla are doing this season: close, but ultimately never really in the running

 

[giorno]

I think the key is though, there are teams ready to capitalize if a team slips in the PL, the established teams get away with it in other leagues.

When have they slipped?

 

[do.ob]

I haven't done any gymnastics, I'm telling you the PL is more competitive than the other leagues, it's pretty fecking obvious to everybody in football but you and a few others feel like you need to be knights in shining armor for your one horse leagues and pretzel yourselves to try and make it so, let it go dog it's over, I'm going to go and watch my badly ran, unpredictable team play some football.

If you reply i wont be but you can have the last word if you want.

Yet another case in point:

I think the key is though, there are teams ready to capitalize if a team slips in the PL, the established teams get away with it in other leagues.

Writing this as PSG are 2nd in France, Juve have already lost the title and are two points from missing out on top four in Italy, Dortmund are out of top four and Schalke already got relegated in Germany. Your definition of competitive shifts based on what criteria is needed. Okay, maybe you are just ignorant about what's happening on the continent.

 

[JPRouve]

I think the key is though, there are teams ready to capitalize if a team slips in the PL, the established teams get away with it in other leagues.

That's not a key point, you are talking about Liverpool they won the PL once. If anything City slipped last season and everything is back in place.

 

[Devil may care]

PL winners in the last decade: manchester united*(at this point in time the level of top PL sides was fairly low. That United side might have been the best PL side of the era, and it had nothing on the best versions of madrid/barcelona), manchester city, chelsea, leicester, liverpool. 5 different teams. One of which was only possible because the level of the top of the league that particularly season was pathetic.

La liga has had 3 different winners. All of whom made CL finals over the same period. With City this season, that's the 5th PL side to make a CL final in the last decade

So when what it comes down to is, the PL has had 2 more great sides than La Liga over this period. Nobody won the spanish league more than twice in a row over that period either.

2 more top sides. That is all the difference between the two

I don't count the CL though as cup competitions are a different animal, I mean Chelsea might finish outside the top 4 and win the CL, I'm looking at the internal league competitions which are measured over a 36+ game season, it's interesting that you mention 5 winners, i forgot wexwere still under the ten year mark since our last win.

Liverpool are having a particularly poor season, and the PL is strong these days. The real difference for the PL compared to other leagues is the ability to build on good results. Spurs managed to make it to the CL and were able to build up on that. Perhaps Leicester might do the same. Conversely, Valencia haven't been able to do the same. All the same, Spurs have never truly been close to winning the PL. Their best PL season is very much comparable to what Sevilla are doing this season: close, but ultimately never really in the running

Spurs are a victim of Levy, the team was as close as its ever been an Poch needed the next wave of investment but it went into the new stadium which has led to the Spurs side stagnating with low quality additions and the bizarre choice to bring Jose in as manager.

 

[Boavista]

Those slips though come from the fact that the amount of tough games takes its toll on teams throughout the season, City are well run and have huge investment and United are terribly run and have huge investment, butbthe overall competition for the top 4 remains strong and the fact it's tough to win the PL back to back has really made the PL more exciting in recent times imo, even though my own teamnhave struggled. I'd agree that we haven't had teams as good as the Spanish 2 but that's not down to them being ran better, it's that they have always been more attractive to the worlds best players as the location for living is preferable and it's easier on the body as there are far fewer competitive games.

The argument about "amount of tough games taking a toll" is kind of circular reasoning though. The PL champions have had higher point averages than both the La Liga and Bundesliga champions for the past four years, and are on track to do the same this year. Now I don't want to draw conclusions from that, but I think the idea that Premier League teams face tough oppositions all the time, while other leagues are full of dross bar a couple of teams is a huge cliche that just gets repeated without questioning it.

Fact is we don't really have a good way of comparing the teams that don't play internationally. Have the past 5 PL champions simply been better sides than the champions from Spain and Germany?

Also we weren't talking about whether the Spanish sides are well run, so that's kind of moving the goal posts. It was simply a question of their team quality over the past decade.
I do agree that competition for top 4 is tough in the PL. But that obviously doesn't apply to the best team in the league. In other leagues that's also the case. In Italy Inter, AC Milan, Roma, Lazio, Atalanta, Napoli all have to fight for their top 4 finish. In Germany and France top 4 is also heavily contested every season. So just because there's one team winning the league every year, doesn't mean top 4 isn't very competitive.

 

[Devil may care]

Writing this as PSG are 2nd in France, Juve have already lost the title and are two points from missing out on top four in Italy, Dortmund are out of top four and Schalke already got relegated in Germany. Your definition of competitive shifts based on what criteria is needed. Okay, maybe you are just ignorant about what's happening on the continent.

I'm responding to this simply to say that these back to back covid seasons have created an imbalance, and no, with no crowd sound on games outside the PL I haven't watched much of the other leagues, none of it alters the fact the PL is by far the mist competetive league in Europe and has been for over a decade now.

That's not a key point, you are talking about Liverpool they won the PL once. If anything City slipped last season and everything is back in place.

It is a key point, you could be as average as Liverpool have been this season and still get top in the other leagues, you can't in the PL as the depth is stacked, also you make it sound like this Liverpool side are a Leicester City winning the league situation, they are a damn good side that I'm sure will be back in the hunt next season.

 

[do.ob]

I'm responding to this simply to say that these back to back covid seasons have created an imbalance, and no, with no crowd sound on games outside the PL I haven't watched much of the other leagues, none of it alters the fact the PL is by far the mist competetive league in Europe and has been for over a decade now.

RIght, so 5 minutes ago you named Liverpool's, Spurs' and Chelsea's current season as proof of competitiveness, but then someone shows you similar things happening in other leagues and then this season suddenly doesn't say so much after all.

 

[giorno]

It is a key point, you could be as average as Liverpool have been this season and still get top in the other leagues,

When has this happened though?

 

[Boavista]

When has this happened though?

I don't think it has, and I'm not sure how that would work anyway.

To find a parallel to Liverpool's current season you really only have to look as far as Klopp's previous team. Not identical situations obviously, but also a sudden collapse to ... 7th place.

 

[dbs235]

It's made a massive difference how beatable Madrid and Barca are. If any of the top 6 in the PL play eachother, you'd say it could go either way, it depends who plays better on the day. For the majority of the 2010s if any PL team was drawn against Barca/Madrid, you'd expect them to go out. Now they're perfectly beatable the same way any top PL team can beat any top PL team. City are edging towards that almost unbeatable status as they'd always be favourites against any team in the world except Bayern, but they're still easily beatable, Chelsea just beat them in the FA Cup semi the other week.

 

[JPRouve]

It is a key point, you could be as average as Liverpool have been this season and still get top in the other leagues, you can't in the PL as the depth is stacked, also you make it sound like this Liverpool side are a Leicester City winning the league situation, they are a damn good side that I'm sure will be back in the hunt next season.

What makes you think that? And I'm not telling you that Liverpool are Leicester, I'm telling you that they weren't the equivalent of Barcelona, Juventus or Bayern in their respective league, you are talking about a team that won 1 league title in 30 years. The reference that you are looking for is City.

 

[Green_Red]

You’re looking at football and not looking at money. The current standing isn’t owed to natural football evolution as much as it is owed to financial inevitability.

When you look at it from that perspective, where do you see the cycle ending?

The traditionally rich clubs are still rich from what I can tell. Yes they have debt but they will work that out over time. Their fanbase and their brand will mean they aren't out in the cold for too long.

 

[Blackwidow]

I haven't done any gymnastics, I'm telling you the PL is more competitive than the other leagues, it's pretty fecking obvious to everybody in football but you and a few others feel like you need to be knights in shining armor for your one horse leagues and pretzel yourselves to try and make it so, let it go dog it's over, I'm going to go and watch my badly ran, unpredictable team play some football.

If you reply i wont be but you can have the last word if you want.

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3 match days before end of season and a lot of open decisions...

Looks pretty competitive for me...

 

[acnumber9]

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3 match days before end of season and a lot of open decisions...

Looks pretty competitive for me...

I reckon Bayern might hang on for a shock league title.

 

[DixieDean]

Bit of a knee jerk thread.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Bit of a knee jerk thread.

Is it? All four finalists from one country has only ever happened once before, in 2019. Three finalists from one country and one of the highest coefficient point totals ever means the thread is apt.

 

[giorno]

Is it? All four finalists from one country has only ever happened once before, in 2019. Three finalists from one country and one of the highest coefficient point totals ever means the thread is apt.

It's apt because the financial dominance of the PL isn't going anywhere, but eh, the top clubs around europe won't be going anywhere either

 

[Classical Mechanic]

It's apt because the financial dominance of the PL isn't going anywhere, but eh, the top clubs around europe won't be going anywhere either

You never know what’s round the corner but there are indicators that the PL could dominate for a longer period of time. Personally I’d be pretty surprised if the English sides could dominate like the Spanish sides did for the past decade. I think this transfer window will be key in the wake of Covid. I’d say it’s an opportunity for the English sides. I think that Chelsea and City will make big moves. If United and Liverpool do is another matter.

 

[sullydnl]

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