Brilliant Premier League, but at what cost to the rest of football?

[Mark_Barca]

Chelsea played Atletico

People like to bring up decisions from 10+ years ago but funnily enough no mention that Chelsea wouldn't have been in the QF's never mind the final if not for bad officiating. Atletico were denied a stonewall penalty that would have seen Azi sent off.

On another note Man City benefitted from two horrific decisions against Dortmund as well.

I've said time and time again, Europe is not the best method to determine the best league as the amount of luck and bad decisions that have benefitted sides especially in CL has a huge impact of ties.

 

[JPRouve]

And it's Barca and Real who made it that way. There were several strong Spanish sides in the 90's and 2000's but they just went about duopolising the league. If they want to stop their league dying, they're going to have to look at radical changes, which may well hurt the big boys.

No. It has always been the case it's not a recent thing. We are talking about the 50s-60s too.

 

[acnumber9]

Yes, they have been making big signings of late, just as Leeds were making them 20 years ago. The last few years have been them trying to keep the English at bay, either in a fiscally irresponsible way, or from an injection of external money like 100m for Ronaldo or 200m for Neymar. It isn’t sustainable for them.

When does of late mean? Does it stretch back to them signing Zidane, Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos, Beckham etc? Was it the era of Kaka, Ronaldo and Benzema? Is it only the last couple of years they’ve been bigger spenders than clubs like Leeds or is that just nonsense?

 

[JPRouve]

I meant the CL and EL finals being played by 4 teams from the same league?

I see, there is no precedent.

 

[Raven]

No. It has always been the case it's not a recent thing. We are talking about the 50s-60s too.

So there were no good Spanish sides in la liga ever?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Europe is not the best method to determine the best league

It pretty much is and it's the only way. You can get noise in some individual matches with the factors you mention but the coefficient ranking awards equal points to all teams in the competition depending on if they win or lose. This will eliminate as much noise as possible over the course of a season. What other method do you suggest for ranking leagues?

edit: maybe you're suggesting an xG coefficents without knowing it!

 

[JPRouve]

So there were no good Spanish sides in la liga ever?

What are you talking about? It's not about being good, fanbases do not go beyond their respective regions outside of Barcelona and Real Madrid, it has nothing to do with being good or not.

 

[ivaldo]

Spain have had 6 Europa winners and 5 CL winners since 2012 including an all Spain europa in 2012 and all Spanish CL final in 2014 and 2016. Their period of dominance was far longer and more dominant. All this really equates to is we have had 8 English finalists in 3 seasons. Them facing each other on occasion isn't that significant. I would say we are on the way to dominance

And they absolutely would be called dominant during that period. Just like we should be called dominant during this one. And as things stand, there's no reason to think our dominance won't continue.

 

[Rozay]

When does of late mean? Does it stretch back to them signing Zidane, Ronaldo, Roberto Carlos, Beckham etc? Was it the era of Kaka, Ronaldo and Benzema? Is it only the last couple of years they’ve been bigger spenders than clubs like Leeds or is that just nonsense?

It means that the signings that were mentioned in the post I responded to were signings that were made ‘of late’.

 

[killerboi2]

This convo again... Not enough people were complaing about the "cost of football" when Madrid were buying every superstar going, selling the ones that didn't work and then buying even more from late 00s onwards.

 

[Raven]

What are you talking about? It's not about being good, fanbases do not go beyond their respective regions outside of Barcelona and Real Madrid, it has nothing to do with being good or not.

Okay, I understand that but it seems you've missed my point, possibly because I didn't express it properly. What I was saying was the time to invest was back when those teams were challenging, instead, Barca and Madrid decided to go the opposite route and horde all the wealth and talent.

Florentino Perez took over in 2000 and had a chance to push for a model like the PL but decided against it so I really have no pity for these asshole clubs who've been robbing their leagues and are now feeling the heat. They were short sighted and now they're getting their punishment.

 

[acnumber9]

It means that the signings that were mentioned in the post I responded to were signings that were made ‘of late’.

But you compared it to what Leeds did 20 years ago as if 20 years ago Spanish teams weren’t the biggest spenders then too.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Looking at the recent past winners of European major trophies perhaps this issue should be viewed as a problem of two leagues dominating Europe. In the Europa League you have to go back 10 seasons for the last winner that wasn't from Spain or England. In the Champions League only Bayern Munich winning it twice has broken a similar decade of dominance from those two leagues.

 

[Righteous Steps]

If Spanish football won the race 20 years ago, Atletico, Valencia, Deportivo La Coruña and Sevilla would be the chelsea/city/arsenal/spurs nowadays

How many Spanish clubs have won the European Cup/CL?

 

[Righteous Steps]

The English teams have been a bigger draw than the Spanish ones outside Barca and Madrid before the PL. How many Spanish clubs have won the European cup? Only two, and Barcelona only started having true success in that competition from the 90’s onwards, In comparison England has two European cup winners who have been lounging in the lower leagues in Nottingham Forest and Aston Villa, there is a more richer history to the game here.

 

[ivaldo]

It is impressive to have had so many PL teams in the final the last years.
But how many english players or coaches actually played or coached in those finals?
Of course it makes life easy as a club when you can buy all the players you want and don`t have to care if your nationalteam ever wins something. But when the people in charge aren`t english anyway who should care?
It`s a bit like being proud of having finished a videogame that you could not finish yourself - so you had your friend come over and do it for you.

I don't think anyone has said anything about being 'proud.' You come across very jealous, and I think you'd be surprised at how many English players were involved.

 

[Boavista]

Looking at the recent past winners of European major trophies perhaps this issue should be viewed as a problem of two leagues dominating Europe. In the Europa League you have to go back 10 seasons for the last winner that wasn't from Spain or England. In the Champions League only Bayern Munich winning it twice has broken a similar decade of dominance from those two leagues.

Yeah maybe, but I think it makes more sense to look at it as Spanish dominance that was occasionally broken by English clubs and Bayern, rather than saying Spain and England dominating.

 

[JPRouve]

Okay, I understand that but it seems you've missed my point, possibly because I didn't express it properly. What I was saying was the time to invest was back when those teams were challenging, instead, Barca and Madrid decided to go the opposite route and horde all the wealth and talent.

Florentino Perez took over in 2000 and had a chance to push for a model like the PL but decided against it so I really have no pity for these asshole clubs who've been robbing their leagues and are now feeling the heat. They were short sighted and now they're getting their punishment.

What do you mean by when those teams were challenging? They have never been challenging, Real Madrid's dominance is mainly pre 2000s and largely based on youth players surrounded by international stars. You seemingly have the wrong timeline in mind, their dominance had nothing to do with TV rights or anything modern, Real Madrid historically have by far the best academy in Spain.

When it comes to the league the last 20 years are arguably the worst period of Real Madrid history.

 

[Rozay]

But you compared it to what Leeds did 20 years ago as if 20 years ago Spanish teams weren’t the biggest spenders then too.

No I didn’t compare it as if Spanish teams were not the biggest spenders then, I compared it to a time when another team made signings the couldn’t afford. Because Spanish teams could break transfer records 20 years ago without risking going bust doesn’t mean they can do it now. Hence the signings they made during a period where they could afford it is not a comparison I’m making, and also has no relevance to Leeds.

 

[Tacitus56AD]

I don't think anyone has said anything about being 'proud.' You come across very jealous, and I think you'd be surprised at how many English players were involved.

As a fan of the still current CL-winner there is no need to be jealous i think, but keep trying to insult people for stating simple facts.

 

[acnumber9]

No I didn’t compare it as if Spanish teams were not the biggest spenders then, I compared it to a time when another team made signings the couldn’t afford. Because Spanish teams could break transfer records 20 years ago without risking going bust doesn’t mean they can do it now. Hence the signings they made during a period where they could afford it is not a comparison I’m making, and also has no relevance to Leeds.

Fair enough. Not sure what it has to do with the topic mind you.

 

[JPRouve]

No I didn’t compare it as if Spanish teams were not the biggest spenders then, I compared it to a time when another team made signings the couldn’t afford. Because Spanish teams could break transfer records 20 years ago without risking going bust doesn’t mean they can do it now. Hence the signings they made during a period where they could afford it is not a comparison I’m making, and also has no relevance to Leeds.

But the reason they can't make those signings in 2021 isn't because they are poorer but because they spent "poorly" in the last 5-6 years. Barcelona and Real Madrid are currently the biggest earners in Football and generate significantly more revenue than any club not named Manchester United.

 

[NasirTimothy]

many countries that we sell TV rights too are not fluent English speakers

Cf the post by @do.ob on this

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Yeah maybe, but I think it makes more sense to look at it as Spanish dominance that was occasionally broken by English clubs and Bayern, rather than saying Spain and England dominating.

Sure, the numbers will favour the Spanish sides but the point is that it's already a pretty closed shop.

 

[Acrobat7]

The whole "they should get more because they are the biggest team" is why they'll remain dominant, it should be an even spread, the teams are never going to catch up to them if the rich just keep getting richer.

So United does not get more TV/broadcasting revenue than Fulham?
Bayern earning 5m or 10m more than Leipzig from broadcasting rights is not the reason their revenue dwarfs all others. It is their commercial business. They have a higher revenue than all Premiere League teams.

 

[Devil may care]

Last TV deal for the league was significantly more lucrative than the previous one, pointing to interest growing

But i digress: there is nothing to fix. The only way Spanish football can grow out of the Madrid/Barcelona duopoly right now is through billionaire investors, and even then it will take at least a decade before TV rights would even start playing a significant role

There's nothing to fix? As a United fan I start every season not even sure we'll make the CL spots, that there's a genuine chance that a Leicester or Spurs could finish above us, that's competition which is why it's the most watched league, the others it's practically ovrr before it's started most seasons.

 

[JPRouve]

Looking at the recent past winners of European major trophies perhaps this issue should be viewed as a problem of two leagues dominating Europe. In the Europa League you have to go back 10 seasons for the last winner that wasn't from Spain or England. In the Champions League only Bayern Munich winning it twice has broken a similar decade of dominance from those two leagues.

It's a bit off topic but you are right. European football is essentially dominated by the top 15 of wealthiest clubs.

 

[JPRouve]

There's nothing to fix? As a United fan I start every season not even sure we'll make the CL spots, that there's a genuine chance that a Leicester or Spurs could finish above us, that's competition which is why it's the most watched league, the others it's practically ovrr before it's started most seasons.

But that's 100% due to our past incompetence and not due to money redistribution. Sometimes it seems that people don't realize that the gap between United and the rest is pretty big, the owners and management has just been useless beyond belief. Just as an example United generates more than a 100m more than the likes of Chelsea or Tottenham.

 

[Boavista]

Sure, the numbers will favour the Spanish sides but the point is that it's already a pretty closed shop.

Yeah that's true.

It gets a bit more interesting when you include runners up, with Italy, France, Netherlands, Ukraine and Portugal featuring in Europa League finals, and Italy and France in CL finals.

 

[JuveGER]

There's nothing to fix? As a United fan I start every season not even sure we'll make the CL spots, that there's a genuine chance that a Leicester or Spurs could finish above us, that's competition which is why it's the most watched league, the others it's practically ovrr before it's started most seasons.

No, it's not. And the point has been made several times already. The Premier League has not only recently become popular. When the Premier League became popular (internationally), ManUtd was picking up league title after league. Their competitor was almost always Arsenal for a long time and later Chelsea. Then the "big 4" became a thing, because it was utterly predictable that Chelsea or ManUtd would win the league and Arsenal and Liverpool would complete the top 4. The Premier League was fairly predictable and certainly not more competitive than other leagues for long stretches from mid-90s to mid-00s. "Competition" is therefore not a good explanation for its success. LaLiga and Serie A had more variety in terms of teams becoming champions or competing for the title in that period and still the PL became more popular internationally. Clearly, the reasons for this success lie elsewhere.

 

[Devil may care]

But that's 100% due to our past incompetence and not due to money redistribution. Sometimes it seems that people don't realize that the gap between United and the rest is pretty big, the owners and management has just been useless beyond belief. Just as an example United generates more than a 100m more than the likes of Chelsea or Tottenham.

I'll just answer this post but it goes to the others as well, don't you think that the amount of money going to teams lower down is the reason there are no guarantees anymore? Look at the outlay on players from teams who are closer to tenth than first in the PL, then compare that to the outlay on players in the Bundesliga outside of Bayern and Dortmund, or La Liga outside of Barca and the 2 Madrid clubs, it's massively disproportionate. It's how a team like Liverpool can go from walking the league to struggling to make top 4, any slip in form and the Wolves are at the door, in La Liga it's been Barca or Real for the last 15 seasons bar 1, in Serie A Juve have won 9 in a row and in the Bundesliga Bayern are about to make it 9 in a row, in the PL winning it 2 seasons in a row is rare.

 

[90 + 5min]

Football is cyclical. Plenty on here with longer memories will remember a time when Italian teams dominated in Europe. The Spanish clubs are just teams in transition. English teams "dominating" (which they aren't by the way) won't last forever, they are just in the upward trajectory of their cycle.

Agree. It is just a cycle that goes forever. Sometimes there is few suprises but it is working like you say.

Bu saying that I wouldn't say that there is PL dominance. Look at Champions League or Europa League last 10 years final. In CL we got spanish teams winning 6 times, german team 2 times and english team 2 times. In Europa League we got spanish team winning 6 times, english 3 times and portugese 1 time. Looking at those who lost finals in Champions League we have 3 english teams, 2 spanish teams, 1 french team, 2 italian and 2 german teams. For Europa League it is 3 portugese, 1 spanish, 1 ukraine, 2 english, 1 neatherland, 1 french and 1 italian team.

 

[Devil may care]

No, it's not. And the point has been made several times already. The Premier League has not only recently become popular. When the Premier League became popular (internationally), ManUtd was picking up league title after league. Their competitor was almost always Arsenal for a long time and later Chelsea. Then the "big 4" became a thing, because it was utterly predictable that Chelsea or ManUtd would win the league and Arsenal and Liverpool would complete the top 4. The Premier League was fairly predictable and certainly not more competitive than other leagues for long stretches from mid-90s to mid-00s. "Competition" is therefore not a good explanation for its success. LaLiga and Serie A had more variety in terms of teams becoming champions or competing for the title in that period and still the PL became more popular internationally. Clearly, the reasons for this success lie elsewhere.

The PL has continued to grow in popularity and competition is why, the money generated from the league has meant clubs like Aston Villa and West Ham can spend big on players and increase their chances of European places, and they no longer just have their best players taken. Over the last 20 seasons Serie A has been won by either Juve or Inter bar 2 Milan wins, in that same timeframe the PL has had 6 different winners, also Juve and Bayern have won 9 in a row, no PL team has ever won more than 3, that's a big difference in how the major 4 leagues have grown in the last 20 years.

 

[ivaldo]

As a fan of the still current CL-winner there is no need to be jealous i think, but keep trying to insult people for stating simple facts.

Oh I'm insulting you but you trying to telling people how they should feel regarding something they hadn't even mentioned is fine. What world do you live in fella?

 

[JuveGER]

The PL has continued to grow in popularity and competition is why...

I say it is the other way around. The competition has increased as part of its popularity and financial position. That's why big money came in and new clubs turned into heavyweights (Chelsea, City) next to the traditional ones (ManUtd, Arsenal, Liverpool). And in the end, it's the big clubs that count and who bring in the revenue that can then be distributed to clubs like West Ham. Competitiveness (today) is the result of the Premier League becoming popular internationally not the cause. Nowadays there might be a bit of a virtuous circle going on between attractiveness and competitiveness. But the origin of this attractiveness had little to do with competitiveness and more with commercialization and other factors mentioned in several posts already.

 

[Boavista]

I'll just answer this post but it goes to the others as well, don't you think that the amount of money going to teams lower down is the reason there are no guarantees anymore? Look at the outlay on players from teams who are closer to tenth than first in the PL, then compare that to the outlay on players in the Bundesliga outside of Bayern and Dortmund, or La Liga outside of Barca and the 2 Madrid clubs, it's massively disproportionate. It's how a team like Liverpool can go from walking the league to struggling to make top 4, any slip in form and the Wolves are at the door, in La Liga it's been Barca or Real for the last 15 seasons bar 1, in Serie A Juve have won 9 in a row and in the Bundesliga Bayern are about to make it 9 in a row, in the PL winning it 2 seasons in a row is rare.

I think there might be some truth there, but the main factor is more that the Premier League hasn't had a true top team like Barca, Real or Bayern in the past decade. Liverpool's slip of form is their own doing, not due to other teams being so good. City for instance haven't dropped out of the top 4 since 2010, so I don't see how that's any different than the European teams you mentioned.

It probably is harder for the top European teams to fall below 4th because there are fewer teams close to their level, but on the other hand these top teams have simply shown a level that's been consistently higher than English teams in the past decade. Their blips in form might still have resulted in league titles or staying in top 4 at least, but even at their lowest they were still among the best teams in Europe, so it's all kind of hypothetical at that point. I don't think we would have seen any of Real, Barca or Bayern miss out on Champions League football at any point in the last years if they were playing in the Premier League. As I already mentioned, City haven't in 10 years, and for the most part they've been inferior until now.

 

[do.ob]

I'll just answer this post but it goes to the others as well, don't you think that the amount of money going to teams lower down is the reason there are no guarantees anymore? Look at the outlay on players from teams who are closer to tenth than first in the PL, then compare that to the outlay on players in the Bundesliga outside of Bayern and Dortmund, or La Liga outside of Barca and the 2 Madrid clubs, it's massively disproportionate. It's how a team like Liverpool can go from walking the league to struggling to make top 4, any slip in form and the Wolves are at the door, in La Liga it's been Barca or Real for the last 15 seasons bar 1, in Serie A Juve have won 9 in a row and in the Bundesliga Bayern are about to make it 9 in a row, in the PL winning it 2 seasons in a row is rare.

It's always the same in these threads. United being badly run = wow league is soo great. A club abroad missing top 4 = they are shit and therefore the league is shit. City, being a well run club, haven't missed top four since Mancini's first season. They have only finished fourth once during that time. If Bayern suddenly start to decide to piss away their money it won't make Bundesliga one bit better or one bit more popular.

Lower PL sides have more money than their counterparts, because their pie is bigger.

 

[JPRouve]

I'll just answer this post but it goes to the others as well, don't you think that the amount of money going to teams lower down is the reason there are no guarantees anymore? Look at the outlay on players from teams who are closer to tenth than first in the PL, then compare that to the outlay on players in the Bundesliga outside of Bayern and Dortmund, or La Liga outside of Barca and the 2 Madrid clubs, it's massively disproportionate. It's how a team like Liverpool can go from walking the league to struggling to make top 4, any slip in form and the Wolves are at the door, in La Liga it's been Barca or Real for the last 15 seasons bar 1, in Serie A Juve have won 9 in a row and in the Bundesliga Bayern are about to make it 9 in a row, in the PL winning it 2 seasons in a row is rare.

No Liverpool issues aren't systemic, in fact it's interesting to note that out of the top 7 Liverpool are the only team that wouldn't top a league that only include themselves and the bottom 10. The issue is Liverpool themselves otherwise the same phenomenon would apply to teams that were below them last season but the other 6 teams easily dominate the bottom 10. But more importantly the wealthiest PL teams are significantly wealthier than their competition just an example Liverpool and United revenues are 300m over Everton's.

As for the spending comparison with foreign clubs, it's pointless to look at outlays because you are talking about clubs that do not operate in the same market. No equivalent to Newcastle will be dumb enough to spend 40m on Joelinton and better teams will get similar or better players for half of his price.

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

The most fun league to watch is the most successful, it is great.

Much better than the pundits salivating over all the beautiful footy that Spanish teams played when they were dominating with a side of Bayern Munich.

 

[Devil may care]

I think there might be some truth there, but the main factor is more that the Premier League hasn't had a true top team like Barca, Real or Bayern in the past decade. Liverpool's slip of form is their own doing, not due to other teams being so good. City for instance haven't dropped out of the top 4 since 2010, so I don't see how that's any different than the European teams you mentioned.

It probably is harder for the top European teams to fall below 4th because there are fewer teams close to their level, but on the other hand these top teams have simply shown a level that's been consistently higher than English teams in the past decade. Their blips in form might still have resulted in league titles or staying in top 4 at least, but even at their lowest they were still among the best teams in Europe, so it's all kind of hypothetical at that point. I don't think we would have seen any of Real, Barca or Bayern miss out on Champions League football at any point in the last years if they were playing in the Premier League. As I already mentioned, City haven't in 10 years, and for the most part they've been inferior until now.

Those slips though come from the fact that the amount of tough games takes its toll on teams throughout the season, City are well run and have huge investment and United are terribly run and have huge investment, butbthe overall competition for the top 4 remains strong and the fact it's tough to win the PL back to back has really made the PL more exciting in recent times imo, even though my own teamnhave struggled. I'd agree that we haven't had teams as good as the Spanish 2 but that's not down to them being ran better, it's that they have always been more attractive to the worlds best players as the location for living is preferable and it's easier on the body as there are far fewer competitive games.

It's always the same in these threads. United being badly run = wow league is soo great. A club abroad missing top 4 = they are shit and therefore the league is shit. City, being a well run club, haven't missed top four since Mancini's first season. They have only finished fourth once during that time. If Bayern suddenly start to decide to piss away their money it won't make Bundesliga one bit better or one bit more popular.

Lower PL sides have more money than their counterparts, because their pie is bigger.

Why make it about United, Liverpool might well miss out on top 4 this season, Chelsea are also not guaranteed, and Spurs had a consistent run of CL finishes and have now dipped, it speaks to a competitive leagur. When your league is won by the same team 9 times in a row there's clearly issues, no need to be salty about it.