Well, you do have it in your own hands. If you want to keep the upper hand, continue buying tickets, merch, subscriptions etc. It is nothing but a consumer-centric market.
Brilliant Premier League, but at what cost to the rest of football?
- Thread starter Rozay
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Bayern will always be a powerhouse. I can't bring myself to feel sorry for any of the woes that Italian clubs have been feeling, or what likely lies ahead for Real and Barcelona. They have only themselves to blame.
It is only the best players that matter, because below that level the turnover means those players will always be eminently replaceable
Enitracht sold Jovic and Haller and now are better than they were 2 years ago, for example
As for small teams beating big teams, Liverpool lost 1 game before losing(EDIT: Ha! You wish!
i meant winning obviously) the title last season. City lost 4 this season and two seasons ago, and 2 in 17/18Not really different from the other leagues
The fact that it was the most readily available/accessible league in town. Which meant people watched that. Which meant people became invested in its clubs - top clubs to be specific.
Again, this isn't something that happened yesterday. It's the result of 3 decades of great marketing by Sky
Barca and Real only have themselves to blame for being broke, they've spent beyond their means for a long time and they've never shared the TV wealth in Spain, same in Germany, one of the reasons Bayern were all high and mighty with the ESL is they already have the TV deals our greedy big clubs wanted. Serie A has struggled since the Calciopoli scandal declined interest in attendance nevermind TV. Only a change in wealth distribution from the TV deals will see any change in these leagues competitiveness and I think that competitive sharpness week to week would improve the European performances.
I mostly say, feck 'em. Because Real, Barca and Juve are skint through insane spending more than anything else. £100m plus transfers for all of these clubs in recent times, along with crazy wages for star players, so little to no pity for them from me.
However, I'm not sure this recent dominance is solely down to finances. The English clubs seem to have handled the pandemic in a better way than most, somehow. Both PSG and Madrid looked way off the pace this week, physically, in comparison to City and Chelsea.
I suppose it's a wait and see scenario, because this season has been very different and it's hard to know the short and long term impact on any team or league.
However, I'm not sure this recent dominance is solely down to finances. The English clubs seem to have handled the pandemic in a better way than most, somehow. Both PSG and Madrid looked way off the pace this week, physically, in comparison to City and Chelsea.
I suppose it's a wait and see scenario, because this season has been very different and it's hard to know the short and long term impact on any team or league.
The good thing is that more often than not, it's poor L1 players that join these smaller PL clubs, Anguissa was shoddy for example. But from time to time, you have the likes of Kanté and Mahrez that slip through the cracks and that fact hurts french european clubs. Other than that the crucial difference between France or Germany and most leagues is that there isn't really a strong concentration of talent at the top, players are spread around, if you take Nice as an example they are 10th despite the fact that they have the likes of Rony Lopes, Todibo, Gouiri or Reine-Adelaide, in most leagues those kind of players would be squad players for a European team but in France they are starters for a midtable team. PSG being the exception in the last decade.
What is being lost on you is that you're focusing too much on the top end of the league. The PL competitiveness comes from teams like WBA being able to score 8 goals against Chelsea in two league games and get 4 points out of six against them. This doesn't happened in other leagues as in those leagues rather than put up a fight most teams just lube up their ring pre-match.
Problem with the French league is the overall quality. Yes, pre-PSG funded by Qatar they had the most competitive league but the overall quality wasn't as good. I admittedly didn't worded my previous post correctly, it is competitiveness and quality. If it was purely competitiveness then the Championship would also be right up there.
Indeed.
Don't let facts get in the way. What needs to be remembered is that whilst it is six different winners there have also been a lot of other teams that have run close but not got over the line. Newcastle and Spurs could also easily have had a league title.
A change in wealth distribution at this point in time would kill those leagues actually
Eventually the financial doping of City and Chelsea will render all the proper clubs as irrelevant in the CL and then the Pl will largely be a wasteland, so I wouldn’t get too smug
No it wouldn't because Canal Plus wouldn't pay what Sky did and french consumers wouldn't pay what british customers are willing to pay for Football. And it's partially due to the fact that France is a multi sport country, the audience isn't concentrated on Football and no amount of marketing will change it. And Ligue 1 quality was better pre 2008 and excellent in the 90s at a time where it was also more competitive.
Yeah, the solution would be the concentrate wealth in the top 5-6 teams, particularly in leagues that produce players at a high clip. If the top 5 french clubs can pre-empt french talents by being financially competitive than everything changes.
No, what is being lost on you is that the PL didn't magically get their TV deals out of nowhere because the league was so good and competitive. It's the other way around. And it's too late for the other leagues now.
Wealth distribution isn't the reason why the PL got its massive TV deals. Wealth distribution is what fuels those TV deals now. But the PL doesn't make its money because WBA can beat chelsea, it does because there more people interested in manchester united, chelsea, liverpool, arsenal, manchester city and spurs, combined, than there are people interested in madrid+barcelona
celta vigo beat the MSN barcelona 4-1. Real Madrid barely scraped two incredibly entertaining draws(2-2 and 3-3) against las palmas the year we won the double. The PL is more competitive at the top. That's it. It is now stronger throughout, as well, but is a very recent development(as in, 3-4 years)
Deportivo, Valencia, Sevilla, Real Sociedad, Athletic Bilbao, Betis have all had realistic title challenges in the last 25 years in Spain. With the top 3 that makes 8. By comparison, the PL has had what, 9 different title challengers over the same span?
Will the continued strength of the domestic league not work to balance it out a little? The top PL sides can’t run away too far because the midtable sides and lower still have the possibility to drop £30m a head on forwards and request audacious fees for their best players from the big boys?
So won't Germany Italy and Spain, they won't pay like the English.
Realistically Germany are the second best because of their Market and large Population in the Country. They have 24 Million Sky Subscribers , England has 12 Million. Spain and Italy have less then England
I appreciate you know far more about French football than me, but I feel like some of the better Ligue Un performers have also gone to midtable PL clubs. Newcastle signed Thauvin, Cabella, ASM for instance, Wolves have signed Ait Nouri and Marcal. I remember Steve Marlet being a French international striker who was in the CL with Lyon joining Fulham. Batshuayi went to Chelsea in the end, but Palace were fighting for him and had agreed a fee with Marseille before the player chose Chelsea. Palace shouldn’t even be trying to take their star player.
Again, unlikely. There are only so many world class players, and those are unlikely to stay at lower clubs for long
But I think it is that midtable £30m forward that will weaken the continental leagues more than anything else, not the PL. Villa could go and buy the star player from Roma or Sevilla. This reduces the quality in those leagues. And while it may be ‘competitive’, it is competitive to a lower standard.
People have been trying to get everyone excited about the Spanish and French title race this season but nobody is buying it. The Championship is the most competitive league but of a poor standard. The fact that Lille are top in France doesn’t make the league great, it makes the league poor, sadly. Rennes got into the CL this season and were embarrassed. The overall level is low, and it is dragging PSG down to a lower level as a result.
That's a fair point. When we actually talk about 'competitiveness' - it's when we want 90+ point seasons from the big boys, not the Madrid and Barcelona sides tripping over each other to hand the other league each week. It's a similar issue in Italy, too. Juventus are in a very tight battle for CL football; Dortmund the same in Germany.
I really think "competitiveness" is the last reason, because when the PL took off financially domestically and internationally in the late 90s and early 00s it was not particularly competitive. I mean between 1997/98 and 2003/04 the champions was always either Arsenal or United. And with one exception where United finished 3rd, runners-up was always Arsenal or United. Then Chelsea entered the mix. In the mid- to late-00s , the "big 4" was a thing because the top spots were occupied by always the same four teams and the winner was either Chelsea or United. This "competitive" thing is a bit of a myth.
I think @giorno has it right that the success is more a result of better commercialization. The Premier League was quicker to target emerging markets, benefitted from a lower language barrier and higher cultural familiarity (party as a result of colonialization in the past). They had better stadiums (given that they hosted the European Championships in 1996) and a great atmosphere, which obviously made for better viewing. For more casual fans the more "action-packed" style during that period may also have had appeal. In contrast, for example, the Italian clubs were much slower to address markets in Asia, have a language barrier, there is lesser cultural familiarity, no colonial ties and stadiums were crap. Roma, who were pretty much the second best club in Italy in the mid-to-late 00s following Calciopoli did not even have an English language website until 7 years or so ago, I think.
The recent competitiveness of the PL is more result that cause of the financial might of the PL as it is the attractiveness and global appeal of the PL that makes it attractive for all these magnates and other investors. And, of course, that leads to a virtuous cycle. It will be very difficult for other leagues to compensate for that.
I saw this from a Serie A fan on reddit
"First of all, I'm sorry Roma fans. I can only imagine how you feel, I was hoping you to get past this team. More so when I saw their manager, pundits and their fans talk about you and the rest of the league.
I'm not here to gloat or make things worst for you but just want to comment on the state of our league.
There are those who will try to point out Roma's poor season and Fonseca but still this level of poor quality from once a proud league is unacceptable.
Italian league and clubs need to come together to find a way out of this. No one has respect for any of the clubs anymore. This is not just a Roma, Inter, Juve etc problem but a collective one.
The drop in quality is so visible and it keeps getting worst. How is the Italian league known for defence and defenders when Italian clubs are conceding goals? Atalanta lost 5-0 to Liverpool, Lazio lost 4-1 at home just this season. The fact United fans can joke about Roma as if it is some shit club that they can smack 7 goals past and get 6 is truly telling.
I dont know why I'm typing this but just wanted to get off my chest. We are at a level where we are asking "respectable loss" and not a humiliation.
I so so so wished you'd get past them and reach the final. Maybe there is a miracle you can pull off, maybe not. The fans did ask Roma players "show them who we are" after all"
"First of all, I'm sorry Roma fans. I can only imagine how you feel, I was hoping you to get past this team. More so when I saw their manager, pundits and their fans talk about you and the rest of the league.
I'm not here to gloat or make things worst for you but just want to comment on the state of our league.
There are those who will try to point out Roma's poor season and Fonseca but still this level of poor quality from once a proud league is unacceptable.
Italian league and clubs need to come together to find a way out of this. No one has respect for any of the clubs anymore. This is not just a Roma, Inter, Juve etc problem but a collective one.
The drop in quality is so visible and it keeps getting worst. How is the Italian league known for defence and defenders when Italian clubs are conceding goals? Atalanta lost 5-0 to Liverpool, Lazio lost 4-1 at home just this season. The fact United fans can joke about Roma as if it is some shit club that they can smack 7 goals past and get 6 is truly telling.
I dont know why I'm typing this but just wanted to get off my chest. We are at a level where we are asking "respectable loss" and not a humiliation.
I so so so wished you'd get past them and reach the final. Maybe there is a miracle you can pull off, maybe not. The fans did ask Roma players "show them who we are" after all"
Manchester United fans going all British exceptionalism about the success of Chelsea and City. You love to see it.
This is factually wrong. Bayern “only“ has the Bundesliga TV deal. If you focus on broadcast revenue you will notice, that they earn a lot less then the Premiere League clubs.
However, Bayern has the highest commercial revenue of all(!) clubs.
Good points
Thauvin was a flop at Marseille, Marcal was also a flop at Lyon. Cabella was alright but not really meant to go higher than an EL team. Ait Nouri could have been useful for a team like Monaco. Steve Marlet is an interesting one while he was not bad for Lyon, they weren't convinced and sold him, they had better players in Anderson, Govou, Vairelles and also added a promising player in Luyindula that they bought for twice as much as they got for Marlet.
There are also cultural differences, or domestic purchasing power in general. The PL has the highest deals, but the difference between its tv money and La Liga's is also owed to its domestic tv rights. The PL is ahead in both domestic and overseas deals, but the difference is bigger when it comes to domestic rights. England is a larger country in terms of population, has more money and in general is more willing to pay for tv providers compared to other countries I'd argue. I find the difference in domestic rights even more interesting than the overseas deals, because it's easier to compare. Are people in France, Germany or Spain less passionate about their leagues than people in England? I find that unlikely, yet the difference is huge. Spain has fewer people and is poorer than the UK, but Germany and France should be more comparable. However people there aren't as willing to pay large amounts for tv packages.
As for overseas tv rights, those huge PL deals didn't happen over night, but I think there are many reasons for it. One reason could be as simple as England being seen as the home of football, where the game started. The fact that English is practically a universal language at this point is also huge reason, and therefore football in England and its culture is so accessible to anyone around the world. Colonialism also plays a massive part in that, in terms of where the PL is popular. On top of that, the PL is practically the first to really market itself and move into foreign markets like that. Other leagues don't really stand a chance against those factors, so I find the reason being "competitiveness" a bit silly when you take all those into account.
The Championship is competitive. Doesn’t make it a league that everyone wants to watch. I think his point about marketing is correct, coupled with the advantage of the English speaking element
They were the first, it's as simple as that and not a jab at the PL, Sky and the PL did a brilliant job. Keep in mind that we are talking about a time where you would seldomly see foreign leagues and since football fandom is culturally faithful, your first experience/love stays with you.
None of that changes that what you said was wrong. I’m not arguing against the idea that the Premier League is marketed better. I’m arguing against the idea that it’s no more competitive than La Liga. It blatantly is.
Competitiveness is just a buzzword created to cover for the fact that PL top teams were genuinely bad circa between SAF's retirement and Klopp's and Guardiola's arrival. The PL pulled way ahead on the TV money front when United won 7 titles in 10 years.
Italy was the league no-one could compete with money wise in the 90s, then it was Spain blowing everyone out of the water.
If it's our turn, so be it.
If it's our turn, so be it.
Today it is but when the PL was created and when it created its fanbase, it wasn't particularly competitive. United won 7 out of the 10 first seasons.
They did, but several of those campaigns had several competitors, Blackburn, Newcastle, Arsenal, Aston Villa and went either to the last day or pretty close. United generally won those titles by having the best manager ever. It wasn’t what we have had in La Liga where it hasn’t mattered who managed Barcelona half the time. It’s not a league like Serie A with the same winner nine years in a row or shortly before that where Inter won five in a row. That’s before we talk about Germany.
Difficult to judge too much though as CL clubs can drop into the Europa as well
The overall tv package is a red herring. The overall money may be more, but the money is distributed much more evenly. 18/19 is the most recent figures I can find. United earned £13m more than Barcelona and £18m more than Real Madrid. They’re guaranteed Champions League every year though so I’m not going to start passing the collection plate round for them.
Good, one thing that's good about Britain is it's premier league, we need it more than most.
More money the better, who's keeping score anyway. :-)
More money the better, who's keeping score anyway. :-)
It is now(depending how you look at it, anyways). It wasn't 20 years ago, when the PL won the international tv markets arms race
How? They are uncompetitive bores, surely if there was a more even distribution and multiple teams could have quality players it would increase interest and the leverage for tv money overall.
They earn less because the league is worth less, do Bayern take an an even split of the Bundesliga money or do they get the Lions share?
Feck them. A more equitable model like we have in the PL was always an option to them but clubs like Bayern, Juve, Barca and Madrid have killed the smaller clubs in their leagues and made the majority of their games pointless and therefore their leagues almost unwatchable.
I have pity for the smaller teams in these leagues but the big boys have killed any interest by hoovering up all the tv money and talent. If they want to increase the interest they have in their leagues, they can adopt our model and start empowering non top teams.
I have pity for the smaller teams in these leagues but the big boys have killed any interest by hoovering up all the tv money and talent. If they want to increase the interest they have in their leagues, they can adopt our model and start empowering non top teams.