Brilliant Premier League, but at what cost to the rest of football?

[acnumber9]

It is now(depending how you look at it, anyways). It wasn't 20 years ago, when the PL won the international tv markets arms race

And it’s a good thing it did. Otherwise we’d all be cowering beneath Real and Barcelona given the mammoth share they take from their nations rights.

 

[JPRouve]

They did, but several of those campaigns had several competitors, Blackburn, Newcastle, Arsenal, Aston Villa and went either to the last day or pretty close. United generally won those titles by having the best manager ever. It wasn’t what we have had in La Liga where it hasn’t mattered who managed Barcelona half the time. It’s not a league like Serie A with the same winner nine years in a row or shortly before that where Inter won five in a row. That’s before we talk about Germany.

Only one season had several competitors, 98-99. Every other winning season United were significantly ahead of the third placed team. Aston Villa finished in the top 3 only once during those 10 years and 10 points and Blackburn twice, it's a bit of stretch to call them competitors while dismissing Real Madrid or Atletico.

 

[AkaAkuma]

I can only think of Thailand and maybe some African countries where the concept of marketability being the driving force for the PL doing well.

 

[Paula]

They earn less because the league is worth less, do Bayern take an an even split of the Bundesliga money or do they get the Lions share?

what you write is just wrong. Surely they get the biggest amount what totally makes sense, but its not such a huge difference.

Bayern 105m
BVB 96m
Leverkusen 85m
the average is round about 80m between the 18 bundesliga clubs.

 

[giorno]

How? They are uncompetitive bores, surely if there was a more even distribution and multiple teams could have quality players it would increase interest and the leverage for tv money overall.

Because Spanish football literally survives on the backs of Real Madrid and Barcelona. If interest in them wanes - and if they get significantly worse, it will - the whole thing comes crashing down

They earn less because the league is worth less, do Bayern take an an even split of the Bundesliga money or do they get the Lions share?

TV money distribution in 2021 has very little to do with the financial worth of the league

 

[giorno]

And it’s a good thing it did. Otherwise we’d all be cowering beneath Real and Barcelona given the mammoth share they take from their nations rights.

If Spanish football won the race 20 years ago, Atletico, Valencia, Deportivo La Coruña and Sevilla would be the chelsea/city/arsenal/spurs nowadays

 

[acnumber9]

Only one season had several competitors, 98-99. Every other winning season United were significantly ahead of the third placed team. Aston Villa finished in the top 3 only once during those 10 years and 10 points and Blackburn twice, it's a bit of stretch to call them competitors while dismissing Real Madrid or Atletico.

You’ve misunderstood, when I say several competitors, I mean different teams challenged and either won the league or went close. Villa in 93, Blackburn in 95, Newcastle in 96, Arsenal in 98 and 99. Three of those went to the last day. It’s not Real, Barca, Real, Barca, Real, Atletico etc. I probably worded it poorly.

I’m not necessarily arguing that being ultra competitive is the reason the PL is popular. In the 90’s English clubs were barely competitive in Europe so I don’t know why it’s even being discussed anyway. This financial advantage the PL is supposed to have is only really coming to fruition and even then we’ve had what? About to be 2 CL winners in the last 9 seasons. Spain have had 5 in that time. Are they really going to cry about unfair financial advantages? When Barcelona had double the tv rights of the fourth biggest in Spain?

 

[Devil may care]

what you write is just wrong. Surely they get the biggest amount what totally makes sense, but its not such a huge difference.

Bayern 105m
BVB 96m
Leverkusen 85m
the average is round about 80m between the 18 bundesliga clubs.

The whole "they should get more because they are the biggest team" is why they'll remain dominant, it should be an even spread, the teams are never going to catch up to them if the rich just keep getting richer.

Because Spanish football literally survives on the backs of Real Madrid and Barcelona. If interest in them wanes - and if they get significantly worse, it will - the whole thing comes crashing down

The interest is already waning though because it's boring, only Atletico even come close to upsetting the apple cart, look at the PL and we don't know for sure who will even make top 4. ThecLa Liga model is broken and just plowing in the same direction isn't going to fix it.

 

[Josep Dowling]

The big clubs in Spain have been spending way above their funds for the last 10 years allowing them to dominate in Europe. England needs to have a sustained period of dominance to really say English football has taken over Europe. And to be honest I’m not that bothered as it’s nice to see the English teams doing it. Just a shame it’s City, Liverpool and Chelsea rather than us.

 

[acnumber9]

If Spanish football won the race 20 years ago, Atletico, Valencia, Deportivo La Coruña and Sevilla would be the chelsea/city/arsenal/spurs nowadays

Or Spanish clubs could’ve shared their TV money better from the start and given them a chance to build a competitive league. The Premier League offered a better product and it’s always been marketed as the most competitive league.

Real Madrid and Barcelona didn’t want a competitive league. They still don’t and apparently you don’t either. You just want your club to have more. City and Chelsea were bought by oil money because they knew they could come in and compete. Real and Barca wouldn’t have allowed that to happen for Valencia or Deportivo.

 

[JPRouve]

You’ve misunderstood, when I say several competitors, I mean different teams challenged and either won the league or went close. Villa in 93, Blackburn in 95, Newcastle in 96, Arsenal in 98 and 99. Three of those went to the last day. It’s not Real, Barca, Real, Barca, Real, Atletico etc.

I’m not necessarily arguing that being ultra competitive is the reason the PL is popular. In the 90’s English clubs were barely competitive in Europe so I don’t know why it’s even being discussed anyway. This financial advantage the PL is supposed to have is only really coming to fruition and even then we’ve had what? About to be 2 CL winners in the last 9 seasons. Spain have had 5 in that time. Are they really going to cry about unfair financial advantages? When Barcelona had double the tv rights of the fourth biggest in Spain?

That's not competitiveness that you described but diversity which in this case demonstrates inconsistency outside of United. Competitiveness means that teams are as strong which wasn't the case more often than not.

 

[giorno]

The interest is already waning though because it's boring, only Atletico even come close to upsetting the apple cart, look at the PL and we don't know for sure who will even make top 4. ThecLa Liga model is broken and just plowing in the same direction isn't going to fix it.

Last TV deal for the league was significantly more lucrative than the previous one, pointing to interest growing

But i digress: there is nothing to fix. The only way Spanish football can grow out of the Madrid/Barcelona duopoly right now is through billionaire investors, and even then it will take at least a decade before TV rights would even start playing a significant role

 

[giorno]

Or Spanish clubs could’ve shared their TV money better from the start and given them a chance to build a competitive league.

You keep going about this...

20 years ago, the spanish league was *more* competitive than the PL. It had *more* teams challenging for - and winning - the title than the premier league. It didn't matter, because the PL managed to promote itself better, make itself more readily available to foreign markets

The Premier League offered a better product and it’s always been marketed as the most competitive league.

They do NOW. 20 years ago they didn't, not even close!

Real Madrid and Barcelona didn’t want a competitive league. They still don’t and apparently you don’t either. You just want your club to have more. City and Chelsea were bought by oil money because they knew they could come in and compete. Real and Barca wouldn’t have allowed that to happen for Valencia or Deportivo.

No, i'm simply realistic. A more even distribution of TV money, right now, wouldn't help the league, while carrying very real danger of damaging it outright. It is what it is

Besides that, there is also the matter of domestic market. Which real madrid and barcelona have dominated since the 60s...

 

[JPRouve]

Also let's not pretend that the top of leagues is decided by TV money, it's decided by commercial deals and matchday revenues, particularly in Spain and Germany. That's where the big clubs dominate the rest.

 

[Raven]

Because Spanish football literally survives on the backs of Real Madrid and Barcelona. If interest in them wanes - and if they get significantly worse, it will - the whole thing comes crashing down


TV money distribution in 2021 has very little to do with the financial worth of the league

Typical Real fan.

"Without us, football is no more".

 

[justsomebloke]

With all the money over here, and even the Super powers from abroad unable to compete financially, the best players will invariably end up in our league. Is the rest of Europe become some sort of wasteland? In the CL now, our 3rd, 4th or 5th best team could probably beat almost anyone on the continent. In the EL, no country’s 3rd to 6th best stand a chance against an equivalent from England. We’re on the brink of our second all English CL final and EL final in 3 years.

Ultimately, is this level of PL strength good for football as a whole? Do we want a situation where there isn’t much left outside? Inter won their league with PL cast offs. Great clubs like Juve and the Spanish ones are skint and can’t compete. Will the whole point or prestige of European football become lessened if the only teams that can really challenge you are from within your own league?

Some may feel ‘feck them, this is great’ - but if nobody else has any money outside of the PL, then the PL in itself basically becomes the Champions League. There’s more value in winning it than the CL. The team 6th in our league could win that. Real and Atletico, who are fighting it out for La Liga were both easily disposed of by Chelsea, a team that hasn’t been in the PL title race all season.

I know it’s early days yet in any longer term prediction, but I’m just looking at the financial forecasts more than anything. The situation won’t change, and as the league’s decline, they will just lose sponsorship money. I wouldn’t be surprised if West Ham make the top 4 or top 6, go out and spend big money, then start slapping top teams about in Europe next season themselves.

1. Firstly, let's put this in perspective. This has already been the reality for almost every league in Europe for a long time, who find themselves in a pyramid with a lot of other leagues above them. That's not an obstacle to thriving. What we are talking about here is, at most, that rather than have 2-3 among forty something leagues at a comparable level in terms of finances and football quality, there's now one that stands out from all the others. It's hardly a radical change. If the French league can thrive despite there being 4 other leagues who are clearly better, why can't La Liga thrive despite there being one league who is stronger?

2. Will it last? This has been cyclical. Not that long ago, it was Serie A who stood head and shoulders above everyone else. Covid has had a distorting effect because it puts a premium on TV revenue, but that is transitory.

 

[giorno]

Typical Real fan.

"Without us, football is no more".

In Spain, it is

 

[acnumber9]

You keep going about this...

20 years ago, the spanish league was *more* competitive than the PL. It had *more* teams challenging for - and winning - the title than the premier league. It didn't matter, because the PL managed to promote itself better, make itself more readily available to foreign markets


They do NOW. 20 years ago they didn't, not even close!


No, i'm simply realistic. A more even distribution of TV money, right now, wouldn't help the league, while carrying very real danger of damaging it outright. It is what it is

Besides that, there is also the matter of domestic market. Which real madrid and barcelona have dominated since the 60s...

Where are the facts though. You keep saying it’s because the Premier League won in the 90’s. What were the TV deals then in comparison to La Liga?

I’ve watched the Premier League since its inception and believe me that Sky have always marketed it as the most entertaining and competitive league in the world where anybody could beat anybody. It may be bollocks, but that’s how they marketed it. You can’t say it was marketed better and then say it had nothing to with the thing it was marketed on.

 

[Kentonio]

A change in wealth distribution at this point in time would kill those leagues actually

You haven't explained why you believe this wild claim is true.

*EDIT* sorry yes you did, even though your answer was hilarious.

 

[Boavista]

The whole "they should get more because they are the biggest team" is why they'll remain dominant, it should be an even spread, the teams are never going to catch up to them if the rich just keep getting richer.

I agree, but you do realise the PL isn't completely equal either? There are merit payments, facility fees, and the overseas tv income isn't shared equally.

The interest is already waning though because it's boring, only Atletico even come close to upsetting the apple cart, look at the PL and we don't know for sure who will even make top 4. ThecLa Liga model is broken and just plowing in the same direction isn't going to fix it.

Do we know for a fact that interest is waning? Their tv deals are still increasing as far as I know. And Sevilla is closer to the first spot than United are to City.

 

[Oranges038]

Football is cyclical. Plenty on here with longer memories will remember a time when Italian teams dominated in Europe. The Spanish clubs are just teams in transition. English teams "dominating" (which they aren't by the way) won't last forever, they are just in the upward trajectory of their cycle.

Still can't believe people jump the gun and declare new eras of dominance when this is the case. Been watching football my whole life and have seen this over and over again.

The PL teams are always in and around last 8 and have been for a while. Bayern have almost always been in the mix. Italy has dropped off since the early/mid 00s, with only Inter really doing anything worthy in Europe. Then you have the odd year where one of the Portugese/French/Dutch teams has a good run. In a few years the Spanish clubs will be on top again. And there'll be another new era of Spanish dominance over the PL declared.

 

[Kentonio]

I’ve watched the Premier League since its inception and believe me that Sky have always marketed it as the most entertaining and competitive league in the world where anybody could beat anybody. It may be bollocks, but that’s how they marketed it.marketed on.

Considering we're in a CL final and yet 19th placed West Brom hammered us 5-2 just a month ago, I'd suggest that claim is actually a pretty fair one.

 

[Raven]

In Spain, it is

So entitled.

 

[JPRouve]

So entitled.

That's reality more than entitlement. In Spain La Liga is essentially divided between Barcelona and Real Madrid whether you are talking about media focus or fanbases.

 

[justsomebloke]

Actually it was signing SKY TV deals firstly. Sky still show the majority of games. Overseas brings in about 4.5BN.= which is a lot but what made the EPL so attractive overseas? Maybe the competitiveness of the league? There has to be a demand for the deals to be signed. No one wants to follow La Liga the same way

I think the competitiveness is a big factor in sustaining that dominance, but it's also simply history, at least some places. In Norway, TV started showing match of the day on Saturday afternoons in the 1970s, at a time when there was just one TV channel and football on TV was rare. As a result, and assisted by the endemic collection of football cards, when I grew up as a kid in the late 70s, English football was as much a part of the landscape as anything in our lives. Notts County left backs meant as much to us as TV celebrities. Kevin Keegan was basically Jesus.

In short- English football felt like home, although of course it wasn't. It's still the case today that if you ask someone you don't know "what's your team?", you would expect primarily to get that person's English favorite team, not his Norwegian. The Liverpool/United dividing line is a social factor. Active supporting of clubs that are neither Norwegian or English occur, but is seen as exotic and somehow beside the point.

 

[acnumber9]

I think the competitiveness is a big factor in sustaining that dominance, but it's also simply history, at least some places. In Norway, TV started showing match of the day on Saturday afternoons in the 1970s, at a time when there was just one TV channel and football on TV was rare. As a result, and assisted by the endemic collection of football cards, when I grew up as a kid in the late 70s, English football was as much a part of the landscape as anything in our lives. Notts County left backs meant as much to us as TV celebrities. Kevin Keegan was basically Jesus.

In short- English football felt like home, although of course it wasn't. It's still the case today that if you ask someone you don't know "what's your team?", you would expect primarily to get that person's English favorite team, not his Norwegian. The Liverpool/United dividing line is a social factor. Active supporting of clubs that are neither Norwegian or English occur, but are seen as exotic and somehow besides the point.

While that may be true of countries like Norway, would it be true of countries like Portugal? I’d imagine there was more interest in Spanish football there.

 

[acnumber9]

That's reality more than entitlement. In Spain La Liga is essentially divided between Barcelona and Real Madrid whether you are talking about media focus or fanbases.

That’s the way those clubs have wanted it. They’ve driven this situation and would happily drive it further. They’ve made their bed.

 

[Boavista]

Considering we're in a CL final and yet 19th placed West Brom hammered us 5-2 just a month ago, I'd suggest that claim is actually a pretty fair one.

I don't disagree with the PL being competitive, but that's not a great example. All 5 goals came after Silva's red card.

While that may be true of countries like Norway, would it be true of countries like Portugal? I’d imagine there was more interest in Spanish football there.

Portugal is a small country, but they have their own top teams in Benfica, Porto and Sporting so it's not really comparable. I'd say it's probably true for countries like India, Nigeria and Malaysia. And large parts of Asia and Africa in general.

 

[Infordin]

Any Barcelona or Real Madrid fan cannot complain about PL money. We make more revenue annually than any PL club (according to the Deloitte Money League). We have just done an abysmal job of spending it.

 

[giorno]

Where are the facts though. You keep saying it’s because the Premier League won in the 90’s. What were the TV deals then in comparison to La Liga?

La Liga clubs sold TV rights individually at the time IIRC. So yes, greater foresight on the part of the english clubs. Still didn't matter at the time. It mattered once truly globalization hit the sport, in the 00s, and with the advent of Abramovich at Chelsea. By then it was over. Can't be bothered to go look up tv deals for the time, but if you insist...

I’ve watched the Premier League since its inception and believe me that Sky have always marketed it as the most entertaining and competitive league in the world where anybody could beat anybody. It may be bollocks, but that’s how they marketed it. You can’t say it was marketed better and then say it had nothing to with the thing it was marketed on.

But it very much *is* bollocks. Up until a decade ago the whole "anybody can beat anybody" was true of every league. Now that the PL top sides have supplanted madrid/barcelona as the cream of the sport, it's no longer true of the PL

The PL got there first. That is all there is to it

You haven't explained why you believe this wild claim is true.

Admittedly a bit of hyperbole, but real madrid and barcelona account for close to 80% of the spanish football fanbase, and if you extend it internationally it gets even worse

At least 80% of people who follow spanish football and spend money on spanish football do so because they follow one of the two. If interest in them wanes, interest in the league as a whole would, unless a significant proportion of those fans suddenly switched allegiance

 

[justsomebloke]

I don't disagree with the PL being competitive, but that's not a great example. All 5 goals came after Silva's red card.

That's hardly much of an explanation for giving up five goals against the second worst team in the league. Although I agree it doesn't show much about the competiveness of the league either when taken in isolation, there will always be freak individual results.

 

[B. Munich]

They earn less because the league is worth less, do Bayern take an an even split of the Bundesliga money or do they get the Lions share?

Unfortunately I'm not entitled to pay links so I had to copy and paste below quote.

"The bottom club in the Premier League, Huddersfield Town (£97m), earned more from their domestic TV deal than many European giants, such as Atletico Madrid £94m, Bayern Munich £89m, Borussia Dortmund £80m and Juventus £78m.”

Distribution of TV money becomes irrelevant when even the rock bottom team in the EPL has a higher revenue than the elite teams in other leagues.

 

[JPRouve]

That’s the way those clubs have wanted it. They’ve driven this situation and would happily drive it further. They’ve made their bed.

It's more of a cultural thing, people generally have a local team and then support one of Barcelona or Madrid due to the fact that they historically brought big international players and have had some of Spain legendary players. Other clubs don't have fanbases that go beyond their respective areas. That's also mainly true for France, for example, you are not going to easily find a fan of Lyon outside of Lyon(or Rhône), historically only Saint Etienne and Marseille managed to have a fanbase at the national level.

 

[Rozay]

Difficult to judge too much though as CL clubs can drop into the Europa as well

That’s true. But still, it isn’t the best the country has that drop into EL. The worst performing of the PL teams drop into the EL, while the better ones are always in the latter stages in any given season. So we’re still going down to the 3rd or 4th worst CL team from any given country that could end up in the EL, and of those - the PL’s reps are usually stronger than others.

 

[giorno]

That’s the way those clubs have wanted it. They’ve driven this situation and would happily drive it further. They’ve made their bed.

I don't disagree with this. Where i disagree is that TV money distribution was/is the problem

 

[acnumber9]

La Liga clubs sold TV rights individually at the time IIRC. So yes, greater foresight on the part of the english clubs. Still didn't matter at the time. It mattered once truly globalization hit the sport, in the 00s, and with the advent of Abramovich at Chelsea. By then it was over. Can't be bothered to go look up tv deals for the time, but if you insist...


But it very much *is* bollocks. Up until a decade ago the whole "anybody can beat anybody" was true of every league. Now that the PL top sides have supplanted madrid/barcelona as the cream of the sport, it's no longer true of the PL

The PL got there first. That is all there is to it


Admittedly a bit of hyperbole, but real madrid and barcelona account for close to 80% of the spanish football fanbase, and if you extend it internationally it gets even worse

At least 80% of people who follow spanish football and spend money on spanish football do so because they follow one of the two. If interest in them wanes, interest in the league as a whole would, unless a significant proportion of those fans suddenly switched allegiance

So greed stopped them? And continues to stop them.

So the 90’s didn’t matter so why do you keep going back to it? It was the 00’s that mattered. Except in the 00’s Spain still had the financial might and pull to force England’s biggest club to sell its best player. It also won 4 Champions League’s titles to England’s 2. What about the 10’s? I think we’ve already covered that. In 2019 Barcelona earned a whopping £13m less in tv revenue than Man United. Real Madrid £18m less. That’s handily offset by their guaranteed Champions League place. We don’t need to talk about other Spanish clubs because they don’t matter apparently.

 

[Stacks]

I really think "competitiveness" is the last reason, because when the PL took off financially domestically and internationally in the late 90s and early 00s it was not particularly competitive. I mean between 1997/98 and 2003/04 the champions was always either Arsenal or United. And with one exception where United finished 3rd, runners-up was always Arsenal or United. Then Chelsea entered the mix. In the mid- to late-00s , the "big 4" was a thing because the top spots were occupied by always the same four teams and the winner was either Chelsea or United. This "competitive" thing is a bit of a myth.

I think @giorno has it right that the success is more a result of better commercialization. The Premier League was quicker to target emerging markets, benefitted from a lower language barrier and higher cultural familiarity (party as a result of colonialization in the past). They had better stadiums (given that they hosted the European Championships in 1996) and a great atmosphere, which obviously made for better viewing. For more casual fans the more "action-packed" style during that period may also have had appeal. In contrast, for example, the Italian clubs were much slower to address markets in Asia, have a language barrier, there is lesser cultural familiarity, no colonial ties and stadiums were crap. Roma, who were pretty much the second best club in Italy in the mid-to-late 00s following Calciopoli did not even have an English language website until 7 years or so ago, I think.

The recent competitiveness of the PL is more result that cause of the financial might of the PL as it is the attractiveness and global appeal of the PL that makes it attractive for all these magnates and other investors. And, of course, that leads to a virtuous cycle. It will be very difficult for other leagues to compensate for that.

The language barrier is an interesting one. maybe you are right. We would have to know what countries we are mostly televised in because certain regions speak good English others don't. A lot of Asian countries don't speak good English either and of course they will have their own commentary so I don't see how the language is important. I doubt they show the English version of matches overseas.
Also did the premier league truly take off financially in the 90s? the biggest transfers were still overseas around then no? I thought it was a bit later on when we really starting getting the cream

 

[giorno]

Ok you lost me there. Don't even understand what your point is anymore

 

[Boavista]

That's hardly much of an explanation for giving up five goals against the second worst team in the league. Although I agree it doesn't show much about the competiveness of the league either when taken in isolation, there will always be freak individual results.

Of course it shouldn't happen, but it's a pretty good explanation for why and how it happened. Like you said it's a bit of a freak result.

 

[giorno]

The language barrier is an interesting one. maybe you are right. We would have to know what countries we are mostly televised in because certain regions speak good English others don't.
Also did the premier league truly take off financially in the 90s? the biggest transfers were still overseas around then no? I thought it was a bit later on when we really starting getting the cream

Considering Manchester United were raking in huge commercial deals in the late 90s/early 00s, yeah. TV money started picking up by the time of the top 4 i think. But again, the process of growth was organic, it didn't happen all of a sudden