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- Jan 15, 2021
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- Competition and Underdogs
Well, you do have it in your own hands. If you want to keep the upper hand, continue buying tickets, merch, subscriptions etc. It is nothing but a consumer-centric market.
It is only the best players that matter, because below that level the turnover means those players will always be eminently replaceableThat’s true, but it isn’t only the very best that matter. Teams will come and take the next best, so after Juve have taken a few of the best, the ones not quite good enough for Juve will go to West Ham. Which weakens the competition that Juve face weekly, and as a result reduces the quality of the overall product.
Part of the reason that England is competitive is because although United can’t sign everyone, as you rightly said, Marseilles or Roma can’t come and sign Sigurdsson or Neves either. So quality still remains in the league. If United took Grealish but then Roma came and took Mings and Cash and so on - the league would be weaker. Now, United will take Grealish, but McGinn is still a good player, and he is happy to stay at Villa, which means they can still beat us. It’s the McGinns and Ings’ that make the strength of the league as much as the Agueros.
The fact that it was the most readily available/accessible league in town. Which meant people watched that. Which meant people became invested in its clubs - top clubs to be specific.Actually it was signing SKY TV deals firstly. Sky still show the majority of games. Overseas brings in about 4.5BN.= which is a lot but what made the EPL so attractive overseas? Maybe the competitiveness of the league? There has to be a demand for the deals to be signed. No one wants to follow La Liga the same way
Barca and Real only have themselves to blame for being broke, they've spent beyond their means for a long time and they've never shared the TV wealth in Spain, same in Germany, one of the reasons Bayern were all high and mighty with the ESL is they already have the TV deals our greedy big clubs wanted. Serie A has struggled since the Calciopoli scandal declined interest in attendance nevermind TV. Only a change in wealth distribution from the TV deals will see any change in these leagues competitiveness and I think that competitive sharpness week to week would improve the European performances.It’s not naive to think this will continue at all. All it takes is a quick glance at the money.
It’s east to say ‘it’s all cycles, English clubs have been on top before’, but it would have been stupid to rule out retaliation from abroad while they obviously still had money. That isn’t the case now. They are financially on their knees. How does this cycle get broken if they are skint?
The good thing is that more often than not, it's poor L1 players that join these smaller PL clubs, Anguissa was shoddy for example. But from time to time, you have the likes of Kanté and Mahrez that slip through the cracks and that fact hurts french european clubs. Other than that the crucial difference between France or Germany and most leagues is that there isn't really a strong concentration of talent at the top, players are spread around, if you take Nice as an example they are 10th despite the fact that they have the likes of Rony Lopes, Todibo, Gouiri or Reine-Adelaide, in most leagues those kind of players would be squad players for a European team but in France they are starters for a midtable team. PSG being the exception in the last decade.Indeed, this does affect competition just as much. Not every player in France may be a target for United or Real of course. But the next layer down will be bought by smaller English clubs, which will take a lot of talent from the league. If more of that calibre of player stayed there, the league may have stronger teams and do better in Europe, improve coefficients etc. Players like Anguissa and Bissouma left France for small English clubs because they pay more. Even Kanté fits into that category, considering the Leicester that he joined. Benfica let their top striker leave on loan! Batshuayi left Marseille to be a back up player.
These players could help some of the 3rd or 4th best French teams to consolidate and become stronger, and improve the quality and competition of the league. This in turn makes PSG more likely to succeed in the CL when they play weekly in a higher standard of league. Right now their league looks ‘competitive’, but the standard is still low. PSG have come down from a standard that they should be at to make it a race in France because they are not pushed.
What is being lost on you is that you're focusing too much on the top end of the league. The PL competitiveness comes from teams like WBA being able to score 8 goals against Chelsea in two league games and get 4 points out of six against them. This doesn't happened in other leagues as in those leagues rather than put up a fight most teams just lube up their ring pre-match.Ah yes, the PL, with its....3 different winners in 13 years....4 in 20...
Where the title race this millenium, until the city takeover, usually involved...the same 3 or 4 teams.
4 of the last 5 PL title races have been processions. By comparison 3 of the last 5 la liga title races went down to the wire
PL is where it is now because it did a much better job of marketing itself 20-25 years ago. They didn't offer a better product, they marketed it better. That there are now 5-6 teams with title aspirations as opposed to 2-3 of other leagues is a consequence of that, and it does indeed help in making it richer now, but again: it's the big clubs the bring in the money. PL just happens to have more of them than the other leagues, thanks to the work they put in decades ago
Problem with the French league is the overall quality. Yes, pre-PSG funded by Qatar they had the most competitive league but the overall quality wasn't as good. I admittedly didn't worded my previous post correctly, it is competitiveness and quality. If it was purely competitiveness then the Championship would also be right up there.If that was the case the French league would have been the most watched in the 90s when the PL gained overseas markets. The reality is that Sky are very good at what they do, they marketed the PL very well in the 90s.
Indeed.This. Sod Real and Barca.
Don't let facts get in the way. What needs to be remembered is that whilst it is six different winners there have also been a lot of other teams that have run close but not got over the line. Newcastle and Spurs could also easily have had a league title.Except it’s 5 different winners in 9 years and 6 in 18. It’s 37 years since La Liga had six different winners.
A change in wealth distribution at this point in time would kill those leagues actuallyOnly a change in wealth distribution from the TV deals will see any change in these leagues competitiveness and I think that competitive sharpness week to week would improve the European performances.
No it wouldn't because Canal Plus wouldn't pay what Sky did and french consumers wouldn't pay what british customers are willing to pay for Football. And it's partially due to the fact that France is a multi sport country, the audience isn't concentrated on Football and no amount of marketing will change it. And Ligue 1 quality was better pre 2008 and excellent in the 90s at a time where it was also more competitive.Problem with the French league is the overall quality. Yes, pre-PSG funded by Qatar they had the most competitive league but the overall quality wasn't as good. I admittedly didn't worded my previous post correctly, it is competitiveness and quality. If it was purely competitiveness then the Championship would also be right up there.
Yeah, the solution would be the concentrate wealth in the top 5-6 teams, particularly in leagues that produce players at a high clip. If the top 5 french clubs can pre-empt french talents by being financially competitive than everything changes.A change in wealth distribution at this point in time would kill those leagues actually
No, what is being lost on you is that the PL didn't magically get their TV deals out of nowhere because the league was so good and competitive. It's the other way around. And it's too late for the other leagues now.What is being lost on you is that you're focusing too much on the top end of the league. The PL competitiveness comes from teams like WBA being able to score 8 goals against Chelsea in two league games and get 4 points out of six against them. This doesn't happened in other leagues as in those leagues rather than put up a fight most teams just lube up their ring pre-match.
Deportivo, Valencia, Sevilla, Real Sociedad, Athletic Bilbao, Betis have all had realistic title challenges in the last 25 years in Spain. With the top 3 that makes 8. By comparison, the PL has had what, 9 different title challengers over the same span?Don't let facts get in the way. What needs to be remembered is that whilst it is six different winners there have also been a lot of other teams that have run close but not got over the line. Newcastle and Spurs could also easily have had a league title.
So won't Germany Italy and Spain, they won't pay like the English.No it wouldn't because Canal Plus wouldn't pay what Sky did and french consumers wouldn't pay what british customers are willing to pay for Football. And it's partially due to the fact that France is a multi sport country, the audience isn't concentrated on Football and no amount of marketing will change it. And Ligue 1 quality was better pre 2008 and excellent in the 90s at a time where it was also more competitive.
I appreciate you know far more about French football than me, but I feel like some of the better Ligue Un performers have also gone to midtable PL clubs. Newcastle signed Thauvin, Cabella, ASM for instance, Wolves have signed Ait Nouri and Marcal. I remember Steve Marlet being a French international striker who was in the CL with Lyon joining Fulham. Batshuayi went to Chelsea in the end, but Palace were fighting for him and had agreed a fee with Marseille before the player chose Chelsea. Palace shouldn’t even be trying to take their star player.The good thing is that more often than not, it's poor L1 players that join these smaller PL clubs, Anguissa was shoddy for example. But from time to time, you have the likes of Kanté and Mahrez that slip through the cracks and that fact hurts french european clubs. Other than that the crucial difference between France or Germany and most leagues is that there isn't really a strong concentration of talent at the top, players are spread around, if you take Nice as an example they are 10th despite the fact that they have the likes of Rony Lopes, Todibo, Gouiri or Reine-Adelaide, in most leagues those kind of players would be squad players for a European team but in France they are starters for a midtable team. PSG being the exception in the last decade.
Again, unlikely. There are only so many world class players, and those are unlikely to stay at lower clubs for longWill the continued strength of the domestic league not work to balance it out a little? The top PL sides can’t run away too far because the midtable sides and lower still have the possibility to drop £30m a head on forwards and request audacious fees for their best players from the big boys?
But I think it is that midtable £30m forward that will weaken the continental leagues more than anything else, not the PL. Villa could go and buy the star player from Roma or Sevilla. This reduces the quality in those leagues. And while it may be ‘competitive’, it is competitive to a lower standard.Will the continued strength of the domestic league not work to balance it out a little? The top PL sides can’t run away too far because the midtable sides and lower still have the possibility to drop £30m a head on forwards and request audacious fees for their best players from the big boys?
That's a fair point. When we actually talk about 'competitiveness' - it's when we want 90+ point seasons from the big boys, not the Madrid and Barcelona sides tripping over each other to hand the other league each week. It's a similar issue in Italy, too. Juventus are in a very tight battle for CL football; Dortmund the same in Germany.People have been trying to get everyone excited about the Spanish and French title race this season but nobody is buying it.
I really think "competitiveness" is the last reason, because when the PL took off financially domestically and internationally in the late 90s and early 00s it was not particularly competitive. I mean between 1997/98 and 2003/04 the champions was always either Arsenal or United. And with one exception where United finished 3rd, runners-up was always Arsenal or United. Then Chelsea entered the mix. In the mid- to late-00s , the "big 4" was a thing because the top spots were occupied by always the same four teams and the winner was either Chelsea or United. This "competitive" thing is a bit of a myth.Actually it was signing SKY TV deals firstly. Sky still show the majority of games. Overseas brings in about 4.5BN.= which is a lot but what made the EPL so attractive overseas? Maybe the competitiveness of the league? There has to be a demand for the deals to be signed. No one wants to follow La Liga the same way
This is factually wrong. Bayern “only“ has the Bundesliga TV deal. If you focus on broadcast revenue you will notice, that they earn a lot less then the Premiere League clubs....one of the reasons Bayern were all high and mighty with the ESL is they already have the TV deals our greedy big clubs wanted.
Good pointsAh yes, the PL, with its....3 different winners in 13 years....4 in 20...
Where the title race this millenium, until the city takeover, usually involved...the same 3 or 4 teams.
4 of the last 5 PL title races have been processions. By comparison 3 of the last 5 la liga title races went down to the wire
PL is where it is now because it did a much better job of marketing itself 20-25 years ago. They didn't offer a better product, they marketed it better. That there are now 5-6 teams with title aspirations as opposed to 2-3 of other leagues is a consequence of that, and it does indeed help in making it richer now, but again: it's the big clubs the bring in the money. PL just happens to have more of them than the other leagues, thanks to the work they put in decades ago
Thauvin was a flop at Marseille, Marcal was also a flop at Lyon. Cabella was alright but not really meant to go higher than an EL team. Ait Nouri could have been useful for a team like Monaco. Steve Marlet is an interesting one while he was not bad for Lyon, they weren't convinced and sold him, they had better players in Anderson, Govou, Vairelles and also added a promising player in Luyindula that they bought for twice as much as they got for Marlet.I appreciate you know far more about French football than me, but I feel like some of the better Ligue Un performers have also gone to midtable PL clubs. Newcastle signed Thauvin, Cabella, ASM for instance, Wolves have signed Ait Nouri and Marcal. I remember Steve Marlet being a French international striker who was in the CL with Lyon joining Fulham. Batshuayi went to Chelsea in the end, but Palace were fighting for him and had agreed a fee with Marseille before the player chose Chelsea. Palace shouldn’t even be trying to take their star player.
There are also cultural differences, or domestic purchasing power in general. The PL has the highest deals, but the difference between its tv money and La Liga's is also owed to its domestic tv rights. The PL is ahead in both domestic and overseas deals, but the difference is bigger when it comes to domestic rights. England is a larger country in terms of population, has more money and in general is more willing to pay for tv providers compared to other countries I'd argue. I find the difference in domestic rights even more interesting than the overseas deals, because it's easier to compare. Are people in France, Germany or Spain less passionate about their leagues than people in England? I find that unlikely, yet the difference is huge. Spain has fewer people and is poorer than the UK, but Germany and France should be more comparable. However people there aren't as willing to pay large amounts for tv packages.Actually it was signing SKY TV deals firstly. Sky still show the majority of games. Overseas brings in about 4.5BN.= which is a lot but what made the EPL so attractive overseas? Maybe the competitiveness of the league? There has to be a demand for the deals to be signed. No one wants to follow La Liga the same way
The Championship is competitive. Doesn’t make it a league that everyone wants to watch. I think his point about marketing is correct, coupled with the advantage of the English speaking elementActually it was signing SKY TV deals firstly. Sky still show the majority of games. Overseas brings in about 4.5BN.= which is a lot but what made the EPL so attractive overseas? Maybe the competitiveness of the league? There has to be a demand for the deals to be signed. No one wants to follow La Liga the same way
They were the first, it's as simple as that and not a jab at the PL, Sky and the PL did a brilliant job. Keep in mind that we are talking about a time where you would seldomly see foreign leagues and since football fandom is culturally faithful, your first experience/love stays with you.Actually it was signing SKY TV deals firstly. Sky still show the majority of games. Overseas brings in about 4.5BN.= which is a lot but what made the EPL so attractive overseas? Maybe the competitiveness of the league? There has to be a demand for the deals to be signed. No one wants to follow La Liga the same way
None of that changes that what you said was wrong. I’m not arguing against the idea that the Premier League is marketed better. I’m arguing against the idea that it’s no more competitive than La Liga. It blatantly is.From 1992 to 2003, manchester united, blackburn and arsenal where the only clubs to win it. Then Abramovich came and it became 4. Then the City takeover made 5. With Liverpool and Leicester that's 7 different clubs who won the PL in its history
Over the same time period, Italy and Spain have had 5 each. PL didn't suddenly start producing a better product, and didn't suddenly get massive TV deals as a result of it. It's the work of decades in action, and it started back when the PL very much did not offer a better product, in fact it was worse. But they marketed it better
Competitiveness is just a buzzword created to cover for the fact that PL top teams were genuinely bad circa between SAF's retirement and Klopp's and Guardiola's arrival. The PL pulled way ahead on the TV money front when United won 7 titles in 10 years.Actually it was signing SKY TV deals firstly. Sky still show the majority of games. Overseas brings in about 4.5BN.= which is a lot but what made the EPL so attractive overseas? Maybe the competitiveness of the league? There has to be a demand for the deals to be signed. No one wants to follow La Liga the same way
Today it is but when the PL was created and when it created its fanbase, it wasn't particularly competitive. United won 7 out of the 10 first seasons.None of that changes that what you said was wrong. I’m not arguing against the idea that the Premier League is marketed better. I’m arguing against the idea that it’s no more competitive than La Liga. It blatantly is.
They did, but several of those campaigns had several competitors, Blackburn, Newcastle, Arsenal, Aston Villa and went either to the last day or pretty close. United generally won those titles by having the best manager ever. It wasn’t what we have had in La Liga where it hasn’t mattered who managed Barcelona half the time. It’s not a league like Serie A with the same winner nine years in a row or shortly before that where Inter won five in a row. That’s before we talk about Germany.Today it is but when the PL was created and when it created its fanbase, it wasn't particularly competitive. United won 7 out of the 10 first seasons.
Difficult to judge too much though as CL clubs can drop into the Europa as wellThis is a good point. I’ve always felt a better metric to see the strength of a league is in the Europa League, more than the CL. The CL is great for determining the strength of everyone’s best club. But after the best one, two or three - a lot of countries don’t have the quality to win a Europa League. I want to see how a league’s teams can compete when we start getting down to the 5th and 6th as much as just their best teams. Credit to Spain, Sevilla did it many times while their league was the best. But now West Ham are trying to buy their star striker!
It is now(depending how you look at it, anyways). It wasn't 20 years ago, when the PL won the international tv markets arms raceNone of that changes that what you said was wrong. I’m not arguing against the idea that the Premier League is marketed better. I’m arguing against the idea that it’s no more competitive than La Liga. It blatantly is.
How? They are uncompetitive bores, surely if there was a more even distribution and multiple teams could have quality players it would increase interest and the leverage for tv money overall.A change in wealth distribution at this point in time would kill those leagues actually
They earn less because the league is worth less, do Bayern take an an even split of the Bundesliga money or do they get the Lions share?This is factually wrong. Bayern “only“ has the Bundesliga TV deal. If you focus on broadcast revenue you will notice, that they earn a lot less then the Premiere League clubs.
However, Bayern has the highest commercial revenue of all(!) clubs.