RedDevil@84
Full Member
All good players are choosing us/City/Pool over Barca and Real?
many countries that we sell TV rights too are not fluent English speakersThe Championship is competitive. Doesn’t make it a league that everyone wants to watch. I think his point about marketing is correct, coupled with the advantage of the English speaking element
They were the first, it's as simple as that and not a jab at the PL, Sky and the PL did a brilliant job. Keep in mind that we are talking about a time where you would seldomly see foreign leagues and since football fandom is culturally faithful, your first experience/love stays with you.
Competitiveness is just a buzzword created to cover for the fact that PL top teams were genuinely bad circa between SAF's retirement and Klopp's and Guardiola's arrival. The PL pulled way ahead on the TV money front when United won 7 titles in 10 years.
to be fair it just sounds like we were just the right product at the right time. In the 90s I preferred Gazette football Italia so they missed a trick in Italy. Revista De La Liga as also ok the early 000s and had glamorous players so they missed a trick again.I think the competitiveness is a big factor in sustaining that dominance, but it's also simply history, at least some places. In Norway, TV started showing match of the day on Saturday afternoons in the 1970s, at a time when there was just one TV channel and football on TV was rare. As a result, and assisted by the endemic collection of football cards, when I grew up as a kid in the late 70s, English football was as much a part of the landscape as anything in our lives. Notts County left backs meant as much to us as TV celebrities. Kevin Keegan was basically Jesus.
In short- English football felt like home, although of course it wasn't. It's still the case today that if you ask someone you don't know "what's your team?", you would expect primarily to get that person's English favorite team, not his Norwegian. The Liverpool/United dividing line is a social factor. Active supporting of clubs that are neither Norwegian or English occur, but is seen as exotic and somehow beside the point.
Don't you see though that the reason those fans aren't attracting more fans is because they aren't competitive. Allow them to be more competitive and there will be more interest in them over time.Admittedly a bit of hyperbole, but real madrid and barcelona account for close to 80% of the spanish football fanbase, and if you extend it internationally it gets even worse
At least 80% of people who follow spanish football and spend money on spanish football do so because they follow one of the two. If interest in them wanes, interest in the league as a whole would, unless a significant proportion of those fans suddenly switched allegiance
The PL has some important factors going its way:many countries that we sell TV rights too are not fluent English speakers
to be fair it just sounds like we were just the right product at the right time. In the 90s I preferred Gazette football Italia so they missed a trick in Italy. Revista De La Liga as also ok the early 000s and had glamorous players so they missed a trick again.
The product itself didn't matter all that much as your experience shows. Other leagues in particular Serie A definitely missed a trick and should have been the first exploring foreign markets. Timing was the key factor and points to PL executives being commercially more savvy which has been proved to be true during the next decades.many countries that we sell TV rights too are not fluent English speakers
to be fair it just sounds like we were just the right product at the right time. In the 90s I preferred Gazette football Italia so they missed a trick in Italy. Revista De La Liga as also ok the early 000s and had glamorous players so they missed a trick again.
What is your definition of a "proper club" out of interest?Eventually the financial doping of City and Chelsea will render all the proper clubs as irrelevant in the CL and then the Pl will largely be a wasteland, so I wouldn’t get too smug
I disagree with this. Internationally the reason why the league doesn't pull in more fans is because it competes for them with the PL, who has a stranglehold on most of those marketsDon't you see though that the reason those fans aren't attracting more fans is because they aren't competitive. Allow them to be more competitive and there will be more interest in them over time.
As i said: best case scenario - real madrid and barcelona don't lose fans, league gets a bit more of variety, but financially there is no real change. Real Madrid and Barcelona still continue to dominate thanks to stadium and commercial revenue.Also if you already have a fan monopoly why would interest in Spanish football for Spaniards fade if you had a bit less money? For the foreseeable future you'd still be the top teams, the games would just become more exciting to watch.
Italian football was rubbish to watch in the 90s. Tactical, dour and hosted in half empty crap stadiums. The PL was a right ding dong in comparision.The product itself didn't matter all that much as your experience shows. Other leagues in particular Serie A definitely missed a trick and should have been the first exploring foreign markets. Timing was the key factor and points to PL executives being commercially more savvy which has been proved to be true during the next decades.
City winning 5 out of the last 10 PL titles and the last few league cups in a row suggests it’s not as competitive as we like to think it is. And that is for a basically brand new team with no PL pedigree, no brand advantages, no global reach.You're forgetting they cornered the market by having a better product owing to the competitiveness of the league. People watch sport to see who will win, when it is a procession they switch off.
Other leagues definitely slept on the commercialisation of football. I'm not sure about this, but wasn't Seria A's financial dominance largely due to rich owners rather than much higher revenue compared to other league's top clubs? If that was the case, then it's even more consequential that the league didn't capitalise on that through marketing their league, because that dominance was never sustainable without external money.The product itself didn't matter all that much as your experience shows. Other leagues in particular Serie A definitely missed a trick and should have been the first exploring foreign markets. Timing was the key factor and points to PL executives being commercially more savvy which has been proved to be true during the next decades.
I agree that making tv revenue more equal wouldn't have a huge effect on the league, as it would make smaller teams only marginally more competitve. But on the other hand the downside of it is very much a worst case scenario like you said, as in the effect on Real Madrid and Barcelona would really only be marginal. You're painting a way too dramatic picture if those two teams had to live with a little bit less tv revenue. Those two clubs have the highest revenues in the world, but if they were to lose 20m in tv money spanish football could collapse? I think that's hysterical. It wouldn't change the Spanish football landscape, but it would help out other teams somewhat, so I really don't see the harm in it.As i said: best case scenario - real madrid and barcelona don't lose fans, league gets a bit more of variety, but financially there is no real change. Real Madrid and Barcelona still continue to dominate thanks to stadium and commercial revenue.
Worst case scenario: real madrid and barcelona lose fans, spanish football loses fans, everybody is now at risk of bankruptcy because they no longer make enough to sustain costs
Not in the short run of course. It's not the loss of a bit of revenue from TV deal that is potentially risky. It's the possibility of interest in the clubs waning, and thus interest in the league as a whole, leading to a significant loss of money across the board and subsequent much smaller TV deals. And keep in mind most spanish teams survive on tv dealsOther leagues definitely slept on the commercialisation of football. I'm not sure about this, but wasn't Seria A's financial dominance largely due to rich owners rather than much higher revenue compared to other league's top clubs? If that was the case, then it's even more consequential that the league didn't capitalise on that through marketing their league, because that dominance was never sustainable without external money.
I agree that making tv revenue more equal wouldn't have a huge effect on the league, as it would make smaller teams only marginally more competitve. But on the other hand the downside of it is very much a worst case scenario like you said, as in the effect on Real Madrid and Barcelona would really only be marginal. You're painting a way too dramatic picture if those two teams had to live with a little bit less tv revenue. Those two clubs have the highest revenues in the world, but if they were to lose 20m in tv money spanish football could collapse? I think that's hysterical. It wouldn't change the Spanish football landscape, but it would help out other teams somewhat, so I really don't see the harm in it.
It was hyperbolic nonsense even when they were at peak of their powers and it would prove to be even bigger nonsense if they aren't able to compete financially with others .Real and Barca are still were 99% of players want to play. And it won't be long before the Spanish league outclasses the PL, again.
Yes, they have been making big signings of late, just as Leeds were making them 20 years ago. The last few years have been them trying to keep the English at bay, either in a fiscally irresponsible way, or from an injection of external money like 100m for Ronaldo or 200m for Neymar. It isn’t sustainable for them.The "skint" Spanish clubs have been the ones breaking transfer records - especially lately on players that just haven't worked out for them. From the 10 most expensive transfers in the history of association football, six were by Spanish clubs and only one by an English club (us).
Granted, a couple of the transfers were knock-on effects from other deals like Barca signing Dembele because of the money they got from Neymar, and Atleti signing Felix because of the money they got for Griezmann.
The problem for them is half of them haven't worked out and they're then stuck with an overpaid player with little to no resale value.
The Spanish clubs are still the prime destination for most players and they'll be back before long - I think there was a similar discussion a few years before Real Madrid went on their CL winning streak about English clubs dominating but that didn't happen.
What they need to do is make wise signings and do their due diligence properly if they're wanting to spend excessively.
Italian clubs also had high revenue in the late 90s and early 2002, mainly due to lucrative TV deals. They were left behind because of poor infrastructure and a more "local" business mind set as they were led by Italian business men. The Premier League and its clubs on the other hand globalized quickly and brought in outside money and expertise. Language and a more international mindset helped. Like I said, Roma did not even have an English language website when competing in the CL in the late 00s.Other leagues definitely slept on the commercialisation of football. I'm not sure about this, but wasn't Seria A's financial dominance largely due to rich owners rather than much higher revenue compared to other league's top clubs? If that was the case, then it's even more consequential that the league didn't capitalise on that through marketing their league, because that dominance was never sustainable without external money.
Something that people won't mention on this forum is that one the reasons Real Madrid and Barcelona behave the way they do on the transfer market is for populist reasons. Bringing big names, promising big names is how their boards are elected and re-elected, they need to appeal to voters.The "skint" Spanish clubs have been the ones breaking transfer records - especially lately on players that just haven't worked out for them. From the 10 most expensive transfers in the history of association football, six were by Spanish clubs and only one by an English club (us).
Granted, a couple of the transfers were knock-on effects from other deals like Barca signing Dembele because of the money they got from Neymar, and Atleti signing Felix because of the money they got for Griezmann.
The problem for them is half of them haven't worked out and they're then stuck with an overpaid player with little to no resale value.
The Spanish clubs are still the prime destination for most players and they'll be back before long - I think there was a similar discussion a few years before Real Madrid went on their CL winning streak about English clubs dominating but that didn't happen.
What they need to do is make wise signings and do their due diligence properly if they're wanting to spend excessively.
If onlySomething that people won't mention on this forum is that one the reasons Real Madrid and Barcelona behave the way they do on the transfer market is for populist reasons. Bringing big names, promising big names is how their boards are elected and re-elected, they need to appeal to voters.
It actually doesn't show anything. Players like Pogba don't move as easily at the best of times and it's even more complicated when there isn't a global hype around them. If Pogba was currently a Ballon D'Or contender he would be an interesting target for Barcelona or Real Madrid but it's not the case.The Pogba situation just shows the current weakness abroad too. He has likely been a little disillusioned with not competing for major trophies. While we haven’t been strong enough to compete for the PL or the CL, he finds himself in a situation where despite that - we’re still probably stronger than the Real, Juve and Barca. So he basically HAS to make it work for us, because despite us only being second or third best here - we’re probably stronger than top clubs on the continent. Bayern perhaps would argue otherwise, but then they couldn’t afford him and their league is weak.
I loved it. Had some really exciting players and I did notice the stadiums were kinds empty but then they would have a lot of smoke and flairs during some games. Their title races were exciting as I believe only 1 team would make the CL and they had 6 different winners in 11 years with multiple competitive clubs so I never really knew who would win every season.Italian football was rubbish to watch in the 90s. Tactical, dour and hosted in half empty crap stadiums. The PL was a right ding dong in comparision.
You're looking at two all English finals in the span of 3-4 years, how much more dominant can it realistically be? When's the last time that happened for any league?If Barca and Real want to redistribute their TV renenue then La Liga may get more competitive teams up and down the league. Also last season British teams did not fare too well in Europe and we have many of these false dawns where we supposedly entering a "new era" of English dominance only to dissipate the next season. I'll wait and see
In 2014 and 2016 for Spain.You're looking at two all English finals in the span of 3-4 years, how much more dominant can it realistically be? When's the last time that happened for any league?
The actual UEFA club ranking for 5 years (including this season)In Deloitte's football money league, the top 3 in terms of revenue come from outside the Premier League, 5 out of the top 10, and 13 out of the top 20 are not from the Premier League. For the time being the biggest clubs from Spain, Germany, France and (to a lesser extent) Italy can compete in terms of revenue. But on average there will always be more Premier League teams competing at the top than from any other league given the financial might of the league, which is why it is more likely to see an all English final.
The gap gets more obvious below the top. English clubs will certainly dominate the Europa League and new Conference league.
Yeah but why do you think that could happen? Why would Real and Barca lose popularity in the long run by losing a mostly inconsequential to them amount of money? They'd still dominate their own league, and they'd still have more than enough money to field among the best teams in Europe, if they stopped waisting so much money on crazy transfers and wages.Not in the short run of course. It's not the loss of a bit of revenue from TV deal that is potentially risky. It's the possibility of interest in the clubs waning, and thus interest in the league as a whole, leading to a significant loss of money across the board and subsequent much smaller TV deals. And keep in mind most spanish teams survive on tv deals
But yeah, worst case scenario. Not necessarily the most likely
It could be 5 PL teams in the last 4 CL finals, and 2 time in 3 years all 4 teams in the European finals are English. That seems pretty dominant to me.If Barca and Real want to redistribute their TV renenue then La Liga may get more competitive teams up and down the league. Also last season British teams did not fare too well in Europe and we have many of these false dawns where we supposedly entering a "new era" of English dominance only to dissipate the next season. I'll wait and see
Spain have had 6 Europa winners and 5 CL winners since 2012 including an all Spain europa in 2012 and all Spanish CL final in 2014 and 2016. Their period of dominance was far longer and more dominant. All this really equates to is we have had 8 English finalists in 3 seasons. Them facing each other on occasion isn't that significant. I would say we are on the way to dominanceIt could be 5 PL teams in the last 4 CL finals, and 2 time in 3 years all 4 teams in the European finals are English. That seems pretty dominant to me.
How old were you then by the way? I was a kid in the 90s, 18 in in 2000. I loved following the Italian league on Gazetta Italia with all the highlights of the games and great players but I found watching Juventus grind out a 1-0 in front of about 5000 fans on a Sunday afternoon quite depressing a lot of the time.I loved it. Had some really exciting players and I did notice the stadiums were kinds empty but then they would have a lot of smoke and flairs during some games. Their title races were exciting as I believe only 1 team would make the CL and they had 6 different winners in 11 years with multiple competitive clubs so I never really knew who would win every season.
That was an obscenely dominant period for Spanish football though. In terms of coefficient points this season could be nearly as dominant for the English sides as the most dominant Spanish season in that period.In 2014 and 2016 for Spain.
I meant the CL and EL finals being played by 4 teams from the same league?In 2014 and 2016 for Spain.
And it's Barca and Real who made it that way. There were several strong Spanish sides in the 90's and 2000's but they just went about duopolising the league. If they want to stop their league dying, they're going to have to look at radical changes, which may well hurt the big boys.That's reality more than entitlement. In Spain La Liga is essentially divided between Barcelona and Real Madrid whether you are talking about media focus or fanbases.
I think (and hope) that Villareal will beat Arsenal tonight.I meant the CL and EL finals being played by 4 teams from the same league?
I too was a kid throughout the 90s and turned 14 in 2000 so you have a few years on me. Del Piero was my fav players. I think I liked the commentary as well. can't remember the geezer but he died recentlyHow old were you then by the way? I was a kid in the 90s, 18 in in 2000. I loved following the Italian league on Gazetta Italia with all the highlights of the games and great players but I found watching Juventus grind out a 1-0 in front of about 5000 fans on a Sunday afternoon quite depressing a lot of the time.
That was an obscenely dominant period for Spanish football though. In terms of coefficient points this season could be nearly as dominant for the English sides as the most dominant Spanish season in that period.
It is impressive to have had so many PL teams in the final the last years.It could be 5 PL teams in the last 4 CL finals, and 2 time in 3 years all 4 teams in the European finals are English. That seems pretty dominant to me.
Peter Brackley was the commentator.I too was a kid throughout the 90s and turned 14 in 2000 so you have a few years on me. Del Piero was my fav players. I think I liked the commentary as well. can't remember the geezer but he died recently