All good players are choosing us/City/Pool over Barca and Real?
Brilliant Premier League, but at what cost to the rest of football?
- Thread starter Rozay
- Start date
many countries that we sell TV rights too are not fluent English speakers
to be fair it just sounds like we were just the right product at the right time. In the 90s I preferred Gazette football Italia so they missed a trick in Italy. Revista De La Liga as also ok the early 000s and had glamorous players so they missed a trick again.
Don't you see though that the reason those fans aren't attracting more fans is because they aren't competitive. Allow them to be more competitive and there will be more interest in them over time.
Also if you already have a fan monopoly why would interest in Spanish football for Spaniards fade if you had a bit less money? For the foreseeable future you'd still be the top teams, the games would just become more exciting to watch.
The PL has some important factors going its way:
-English being the world language, making it extremely easy to broadcast content and foreign fans a chance to engage on a level that Italian, Spanish or German clubs don't have with most of the world
-England having large former colonies, in particular compared to Italy and Germany
-English clubs and fans being far more open to commercialization, at least compared to Germany.
That, coupled with an early and successful marketing campaign to seize the profits of globalization, is what brought us to this point.
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The product itself didn't matter all that much as your experience shows. Other leagues in particular Serie A definitely missed a trick and should have been the first exploring foreign markets. Timing was the key factor and points to PL executives being commercially more savvy which has been proved to be true during the next decades.
What is your definition of a "proper club" out of interest?
I disagree with this. Internationally the reason why the league doesn't pull in more fans is because it competes for them with the PL, who has a stranglehold on most of those markets
Greater variety of competition would do nothing for it when people are still going go watch the PL anyways
Domestically it has little relevance. Market is already saturated. More competitive teams wouldn't bring new fans, at most it would reduce the incidence of the big two within spanish football
As i said: best case scenario - real madrid and barcelona don't lose fans, league gets a bit more of variety, but financially there is no real change. Real Madrid and Barcelona still continue to dominate thanks to stadium and commercial revenue.
Worst case scenario: real madrid and barcelona lose fans, spanish football loses fans, everybody is now at risk of bankruptcy because they no longer make enough to sustain costs
Italian football was rubbish to watch in the 90s. Tactical, dour and hosted in half empty crap stadiums. The PL was a right ding dong in comparision.
Real and Barca are still were 99% of players want to play. And it won't be long before the Spanish league outclasses the PL, again.
City winning 5 out of the last 10 PL titles and the last few league cups in a row suggests it’s not as competitive as we like to think it is. And that is for a basically brand new team with no PL pedigree, no brand advantages, no global reach.
If Pep stays for a few more years and City’s owners continue to spend the way they have been, they’ll probably win 6-8 out of the next 10 PL titles.
Outside this weird COVID year, the trend is going to get worse. It is taking less points to survive the drop, and more and more points to win the league, suggesting that the PL is getting less competitive if defined by the difference in quality between all sides.
Ligue 1 and La Liga have been very competitive this season, with very close title races. Bundesliga has a very close European positions fight, and the league is still not wrapped up with 3 games to go.
There is really nothing special about the PL beyond having an early international market advantage (earned, by being strategic and ahead of others + having the language advantage).
Meh, it comes and goes in cycles. Real and Barca have screwed up massively with their finances which might ensure we stay at the top a while longer. La Liga will be back, as will Bundesliga. I think Serie A might be on its way to improving again with a more competitive league.
Besides, the apparent 2nd best PL team got dumped out at group stage.
Besides, the apparent 2nd best PL team got dumped out at group stage.
The "skint" Spanish clubs have been the ones breaking transfer records - especially lately on players that just haven't worked out for them. From the 10 most expensive transfers in the history of association football, six were by Spanish clubs and only one by an English club (us).
Granted, a couple of the transfers were knock-on effects from other deals like Barca signing Dembele because of the money they got from Neymar, and Atleti signing Felix because of the money they got for Griezmann.
The problem for them is half of them haven't worked out and they're then stuck with an overpaid player with little to no resale value.
The Spanish clubs are still the prime destination for most players and they'll be back before long - I think there was a similar discussion a few years before Real Madrid went on their CL winning streak about English clubs dominating but that didn't happen.
What they need to do is make wise signings and do their due diligence properly if they're wanting to spend excessively.
Granted, a couple of the transfers were knock-on effects from other deals like Barca signing Dembele because of the money they got from Neymar, and Atleti signing Felix because of the money they got for Griezmann.
The problem for them is half of them haven't worked out and they're then stuck with an overpaid player with little to no resale value.
The Spanish clubs are still the prime destination for most players and they'll be back before long - I think there was a similar discussion a few years before Real Madrid went on their CL winning streak about English clubs dominating but that didn't happen.
What they need to do is make wise signings and do their due diligence properly if they're wanting to spend excessively.
Other leagues definitely slept on the commercialisation of football. I'm not sure about this, but wasn't Seria A's financial dominance largely due to rich owners rather than much higher revenue compared to other league's top clubs? If that was the case, then it's even more consequential that the league didn't capitalise on that through marketing their league, because that dominance was never sustainable without external money.
I agree that making tv revenue more equal wouldn't have a huge effect on the league, as it would make smaller teams only marginally more competitve. But on the other hand the downside of it is very much a worst case scenario like you said, as in the effect on Real Madrid and Barcelona would really only be marginal. You're painting a way too dramatic picture if those two teams had to live with a little bit less tv revenue. Those two clubs have the highest revenues in the world, but if they were to lose 20m in tv money spanish football could collapse? I think that's hysterical. It wouldn't change the Spanish football landscape, but it would help out other teams somewhat, so I really don't see the harm in it.
Not in the short run of course. It's not the loss of a bit of revenue from TV deal that is potentially risky. It's the possibility of interest in the clubs waning, and thus interest in the league as a whole, leading to a significant loss of money across the board and subsequent much smaller TV deals. And keep in mind most spanish teams survive on tv deals
But yeah, worst case scenario. Not necessarily the most likely
It was hyperbolic nonsense even when they were at peak of their powers and it would prove to be even bigger nonsense if they aren't able to compete financially with others .
Yes, they have been making big signings of late, just as Leeds were making them 20 years ago. The last few years have been them trying to keep the English at bay, either in a fiscally irresponsible way, or from an injection of external money like 100m for Ronaldo or 200m for Neymar. It isn’t sustainable for them.
The Pogba situation just shows the current weakness abroad too. He has likely been a little disillusioned with not competing for major trophies. While we haven’t been strong enough to compete for the PL or the CL, he finds himself in a situation where despite that - we’re still probably stronger than the Real, Juve and Barca. So he basically HAS to make it work for us, because despite us only being second or third best here - we’re probably stronger than top clubs on the continent. Bayern perhaps would argue otherwise, but then they couldn’t afford him and their league is weak.
"The biggest trick the PL ever pulled was convincing its fans that the league was competitive because everyone was good, when in fact its best clubs were just crap"
Somehow that has managed to stick even after the best clubs got their shit together and disproved that for the bs it was
Somehow that has managed to stick even after the best clubs got their shit together and disproved that for the bs it was
Italian clubs also had high revenue in the late 90s and early 2002, mainly due to lucrative TV deals. They were left behind because of poor infrastructure and a more "local" business mind set as they were led by Italian business men. The Premier League and its clubs on the other hand globalized quickly and brought in outside money and expertise. Language and a more international mindset helped. Like I said, Roma did not even have an English language website when competing in the CL in the late 00s.
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Something that people won't mention on this forum is that one the reasons Real Madrid and Barcelona behave the way they do on the transfer market is for populist reasons. Bringing big names, promising big names is how their boards are elected and re-elected, they need to appeal to voters.
If only
It actually doesn't show anything. Players like Pogba don't move as easily at the best of times and it's even more complicated when there isn't a global hype around them. If Pogba was currently a Ballon D'Or contender he would be an interesting target for Barcelona or Real Madrid but it's not the case.
We are using CL to conclude this but it's a cup competition where timing and luck plays role, especially in tight games.
For example, City were lucky to beat Dortmund who were robbed, clear goal denied and then nonsense penalty given to City. PSG played them off the park but they didnt take their chances. City scored couple of fluke goals and suddenly they were favorites in that tie. Also Bayern missed their best player which played huge role in PSG knocking them out.
2018-19, Ajax played so well vs Spurs and lost in the last seconds of the game. They couldn't handle hoof ball to Llorente. Dembele messed up easy chance in the last min of the game when score was 3-0.
These are all small details that matter a lot. It's a cup competition.
Well Madrid and Barca have clearly declined, which is normal as the core team that dominated are old and past their best. It's not easy to replace them by signing bunch of young players. At least when it comes to Madrid, they rebuild very quickly.
For example, City were lucky to beat Dortmund who were robbed, clear goal denied and then nonsense penalty given to City. PSG played them off the park but they didnt take their chances. City scored couple of fluke goals and suddenly they were favorites in that tie. Also Bayern missed their best player which played huge role in PSG knocking them out.
2018-19, Ajax played so well vs Spurs and lost in the last seconds of the game. They couldn't handle hoof ball to Llorente. Dembele messed up easy chance in the last min of the game when score was 3-0.
These are all small details that matter a lot. It's a cup competition.
Well Madrid and Barca have clearly declined, which is normal as the core team that dominated are old and past their best. It's not easy to replace them by signing bunch of young players. At least when it comes to Madrid, they rebuild very quickly.
I loved it. Had some really exciting players and I did notice the stadiums were kinds empty but then they would have a lot of smoke and flairs during some games. Their title races were exciting as I believe only 1 team would make the CL and they had 6 different winners in 11 years with multiple competitive clubs so I never really knew who would win every season.
Amazed nobody has mentioned this but the PL’s Christmas schedule is a huge factor in its popularity.
Every other country bins off their leagues for up to a month whilst the PL keeps going.
As for Serie A. They only have themselves to blame for the decline in the league.
Here’s a list of abysmal things to happen in Italian football since the 2002 World Cup
- Corruption
- daft foreign player limits
- co-ownership system
- loan system
- shit decaying grounds
- fixture scheduling, move your games to Saturday ffs
- racism
A shame really because it has so much potential. Inter, Milan, Juventus, Roma, Lazio, Napoli, could easily be marketed as a “Big Six”.
Fiorentina, Sampdoria, Genoa, Atalanta all good sized clubs. Lots of derby games and rivalries too.
La liga, again should be looking at themselves. The amount of money wasted by Atletico and Barcelona in particular is staggering. Real Madrid rested on their laurels because they were winning the CL every year and are now stuck with an aged team of has beens.
They also keep spending lots of money on Brazilian youngsters as if it’s the 90’s or 00’s. They don’t make them as sexy as they used to. Move on.
Also la liga and serie a need to work out a tv deal with sky or bt. Nobody is paying for Premier Sports on top of that to watch their leagues over here. There’s an untapped market here who took to la liga and serie a for years when they were available on Sky and Channel 4.
Every other country bins off their leagues for up to a month whilst the PL keeps going.
As for Serie A. They only have themselves to blame for the decline in the league.
Here’s a list of abysmal things to happen in Italian football since the 2002 World Cup
- Corruption
- daft foreign player limits
- co-ownership system
- loan system
- shit decaying grounds
- fixture scheduling, move your games to Saturday ffs
- racism
A shame really because it has so much potential. Inter, Milan, Juventus, Roma, Lazio, Napoli, could easily be marketed as a “Big Six”.
Fiorentina, Sampdoria, Genoa, Atalanta all good sized clubs. Lots of derby games and rivalries too.
La liga, again should be looking at themselves. The amount of money wasted by Atletico and Barcelona in particular is staggering. Real Madrid rested on their laurels because they were winning the CL every year and are now stuck with an aged team of has beens.
They also keep spending lots of money on Brazilian youngsters as if it’s the 90’s or 00’s. They don’t make them as sexy as they used to. Move on.
Also la liga and serie a need to work out a tv deal with sky or bt. Nobody is paying for Premier Sports on top of that to watch their leagues over here. There’s an untapped market here who took to la liga and serie a for years when they were available on Sky and Channel 4.
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You're looking at two all English finals in the span of 3-4 years, how much more dominant can it realistically be? When's the last time that happened for any league?
I understand that there has been a cyclical element to football but there is a tenancy for economic strength to converge to a centre and that centre developing sufficient financial clout to dominate long term. I can see that happening to the PL with it attracting all the best players, becoming an international superleague of its own
In 2014 and 2016 for Spain.
The actual UEFA club ranking for 5 years (including this season)
Bayern 134
Real Madrid 127
Manchester City 125
Barcelona 122
Juventus 120
Atletico Madrid 115
PSG 113
United 111
Liverpool 101
Arsenal 98
Sevilla 98
Chelsea 96
Dortmund 90
Yeah but why do you think that could happen? Why would Real and Barca lose popularity in the long run by losing a mostly inconsequential to them amount of money? They'd still dominate their own league, and they'd still have more than enough money to field among the best teams in Europe, if they stopped waisting so much money on crazy transfers and wages.
If I understand you right you're suggesting that the loss of tv money would mean they'd fall behind European competition and hence lose fans, but in my opinon that's really unlikely despite Perez fearmongering. Sugar daddy clubs exists, but Real and Barcelona's revenue is so high they could lose a bit and still be the highest. I'm not saying making tv distribution more equal will transform or save Spanish football, but to me it just reads like you're making excuses for why they shouldn't share more equally.
It could be 5 PL teams in the last 4 CL finals, and 2 time in 3 years all 4 teams in the European finals are English. That seems pretty dominant to me.
Spain have had 6 Europa winners and 5 CL winners since 2012 including an all Spain europa in 2012 and all Spanish CL final in 2014 and 2016. Their period of dominance was far longer and more dominant. All this really equates to is we have had 8 English finalists in 3 seasons. Them facing each other on occasion isn't that significant. I would say we are on the way to dominance
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How old were you then by the way? I was a kid in the 90s, 18 in in 2000. I loved following the Italian league on Gazetta Italia with all the highlights of the games and great players but I found watching Juventus grind out a 1-0 in front of about 5000 fans on a Sunday afternoon quite depressing a lot of the time.
That was an obscenely dominant period for Spanish football though. In terms of coefficient points this season could be nearly as dominant for the English sides as the most dominant Spanish season in that period.
I meant the CL and EL finals being played by 4 teams from the same league?
And it's Barca and Real who made it that way. There were several strong Spanish sides in the 90's and 2000's but they just went about duopolising the league. If they want to stop their league dying, they're going to have to look at radical changes, which may well hurt the big boys.
I think (and hope) that Villareal will beat Arsenal tonight.
I too was a kid throughout the 90s and turned 14 in 2000 so you have a few years on me. Del Piero was my fav players. I think I liked the commentary as well. can't remember the geezer but he died recently
Why would you really think like this? The era of PL dominance has only really just begun after years of under performing, and it's not like it will go on forever, this things never do. You are living in la la land if you think this idea that West Ham could finish top 4 and go to dominating European football in one season. What you say about the clubs around Europe never being able to compete will never actually happen given there will always be other strong economies in Europe and that money will mostly go towards domestic football by nature.
On top of that at this point a lot of the most marquee names aren't even joining the Premier League teams, the Premier League sides have just been building better and taken advantage of the inevitable decline in Barcelona and Real Madrid after Messi and Ronaldo stopped being super human.
I don't really get why you wouldn't be excited by an era of PL dominance and yearning for Man Utd to join the action for most this forum given our still dismal recent performances at Europe's top level, after what feels like a decade of dominance by Spain's big two.
On top of that at this point a lot of the most marquee names aren't even joining the Premier League teams, the Premier League sides have just been building better and taken advantage of the inevitable decline in Barcelona and Real Madrid after Messi and Ronaldo stopped being super human.
I don't really get why you wouldn't be excited by an era of PL dominance and yearning for Man Utd to join the action for most this forum given our still dismal recent performances at Europe's top level, after what feels like a decade of dominance by Spain's big two.
It is impressive to have had so many PL teams in the final the last years.
But how many english players or coaches actually played or coached in those finals?
Of course it makes life easy as a club when you can buy all the players you want and don`t have to care if your nationalteam ever wins something. But when the people in charge aren`t english anyway who should care?
It`s a bit like being proud of having finished a videogame that you could not finish yourself - so you had your friend come over and do it for you.
Peter Brackley was the commentator.