Guardian: Manchester United lose £200m training kit deal over fans’ anti-Glazers campaign

TrueRed79

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People thinking this is good is horrible. This will ensure we go further behind the oil and oligarch clubs.

United fans will never win a war of attrition with the Glazers. It’s totally one sided.

What’s next? People saying good we didn’t qualify for the CL as that would mean more money for the Glazers?

Ole and the team are already facing the brunt of the previous protest by having to play 4 games in 8 days but that’s just a temporary pain.

Do fans really want to create permanent pain by going behind the oil clubs in market power?
Are you actually being serious? :houllier: Maybe they could stop taking their dividends of 20M every year. Have you even considered that? They have been completely useless owners and guess what? This is how protests work, and this is how we drive them out of the club.
 

Dan_F

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What's the long term profit? Losing £200m to make back £20m a season, even though the Glazers have no intention of selling? I don't believe they pulled out over the protest, more likely pandemic hitting their business and them seeing an opportunity to renege on an agreement. I don't see how the club losing £200m is a good thing for anyone involved.
I’m sorry but you think the Glazer take over has/is only costing the club £20 million a year in dividends?
 

Lappen

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really hope so but it would only be a profit imo if we would get a fan with money as owner in the end
They have costs us fans 1,6 billion £ so far and the depth haven't been reduced more than 250 mil. We are the only PL club that pay revenue to the owners in a regular base.

We onle need a owner that is as worse as the second worse in the league to be in a hell of a lott better place...

I guess you are afraid that a new owner is going to be someone that kills reporters and people not agreeing with them in a regular bases. So am I! But Im more willing to take a chance for the win, than stop trying because I'm afraid of losing.

Glazers has been/is a very big fundraiser to trump! Only that is enough for me to take a stand.
 

Spoony

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Not sure of the relevance? Are you suggesting that if true this could be the tip of the iceberg or that the protests won't have any other effect on our other UK sponsors?

I'm saying it's probably more likely to affect local sponsors. And we have a few of them.
 

Roboc7

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The likelihood is that new owners would be worse. Bigger valuation, bigger purchase, bigger dividends.
Funny thing is that’s actually more likely if the Glazers stay, that’s their aim, increase the value and sell to highest bidder. If fans have accepted owners loading debt on the club then whats to deter someone else doing the same as well.
 

Drawfull

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Chivas - Brit
DHL - Germany
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Marriot - USA
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MU655

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I actually doubt it is to do with fan protests. But let us assume it is. Is it actually good? No.

Firstly, future cash flows are taken into account with investments. The club will need to know they can afford signings before they actually make them. If the sponsor was as close to signing as was claimed, it would have played a role in how much can be spent in one transfer window and the relative wages. Losing a sponsorship deal like this will have an impact on the transfer window.

Another point is that 94% of all out goings are club related. If we assume the dividends will also take a hit (interest won't and will remain at 4% of out goings), that means club-related outgoings will be hit by 98% of that £200m. So, £19.6m loss in revenue per year to go on the club.

Where is the easiest place to save money in football? Transfers. Not signing anyone or reducing transfer purchases is the best way to deal with money shortages. The next best is selling players. This will impact our transfer ability and competitiveness. And it will potentially impact sponsorship deals long term e.g. losing big players through having to sell or not bringing in any new big names.

This will also set a precedent in how sponsors behave with us. This will have a long term impact on revenue through sponsors if it happened multiple times. Demand lowers and so does price. Risk heightens and price lowers.

The other issue with this is, if it was really due to the fans, this will be alarming to potential buyers. The very fact that sponsors will pull out based on fan behaviour will make this a very high risk investment as revenue will be seen to be under threat. This will further limit an already limited pool.

Cutting down the value of the club won't have much impact as it will still cost billions. There are only 2, 755 billionaires in the world and the vast majority wouldn't be able to afford it even if the club's value dropped by a billion due to fan protests. Just an example; it likely won't drop this much based on only losing this sponsorship deal. The precedent could be an issue, though.

Also, the Glazers would still be, essentially, $2.4bn in profit from their initial investment (before taxes) even if it did drop by a billion and then they sold the club. Honestly, I don't think that would trigger them into selling. I think you will start to see how much damage would need to be done to the club to really pressurise their profit, and get them sweating.

In the end, you could damage the club long term and still not get rid of the Glazers.

There are other issues, also, but this post is long enough.
 
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Chesterlestreet

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Glazers has been/is a very big fundraiser to trump! Only that is enough for me to take a stand.
One of them, yeah - I forget his name, he's never been much talked about in connection with United.

Avram Glazer, however, is a Democrat and has raised funds for both Hillary and Biden.
 

Spoony

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Adidas - German
Chevy - USA
AON - Brit
Kohler - USA
Aeroflot - Russia
Apollo tyres - India
Cadbury - Brit
Canon - Japan
Casillero del Diablo - Chile
Chivas - Brit
DHL - Germany
Gulf - Germany
HCL - India
Konami - Japan
Marriot - USA
Maui Jim - USA
Melitta - Italy
MLILY - China
Remington - USA
Swissquote - Better be Swiss
Tag Heuer - Swiss
Visis Malta - Malta
Yabo - Japan

3 in UK.
I'd imagine DHL hating the negative publicity in the UK and all.
 

Mount's Goatieson

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If I were a Glazer I'd probably look for the biggest a**holes in the history of a**hole businesses, sell to them and post a vid of both middle fingers raised taking a trip to bank.
But I'm no Glazer... fortunately so feck them.
 

horsechoker

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If I were a Glazer I'd probably look for the biggest a**holes in the history of a**hole businesses, sell to them and post a vid of both middle fingers raised taking a trip to bank.
But I'm no Glazer... fortunately so feck them.
Trump?
The Nestle guy who believes water isn't a human right?
 

Lappen

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One of them, yeah - I forget his name, he's never been much talked about in connection with United.

Avram Glazer, however, is a Democrat and has raised funds for both Hillary and Biden.
Ed.
Glazers gave about 10 times more to Trump then Hillary. Biden i dont know. But what I read is that Joel G is considerned the black cheep for suporting Hillery. The rest of the famely voted for Trump.
 

Spoony

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Ed.
Glazers gave about 10 times more to Trump then Hillary. Biden i dont know. But what I read is that Joel G is considerned the black cheep for suporting Hillery. The rest of the famely voted for Trump.
I'm not sure who worse Hillary or Trump. But there you go...
 

Roboc7

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I actually doubt it is to do with fan protests. But let us assume it is. Is it actually good? No.

Firstly, future cash flows are taken into account with investments. The club will need to know they can afford signings before they actually make them. If the sponsor was as close to signing as was claimed, it would have played a role in how much can be spent in one transfer window and the relative wages. Losing a sponsorship deal like this will have an impact on the transfer window.

Another point is that 94% of all out goings are club related. If we assume the dividends will also take a hit (interest won't and will remain at 4% of out goings), that means club-related outgoings will be hit by 98% of that £200m. So, £19.6m loss in revenue per year to go on the club.

Where is the easiest place to save money in football? Transfers. Not signing anyone or reducing transfer purchases is the best way to deal with money shortages. The next best is selling players. This will impact our transfer ability and competitiveness. And it will potentially impact sponsorship deals long term e.g. losing big players through having to sell or not bringing in any new big names.

This will also set a precedent in how sponsors behave with us. This will have a long term impact on revenue through sponsors if it happened multiple times. Demand lowers and so does price. Risk heightens and price lowers.

The other issue with this is, if it was really due to the fans, this will be alarming to potential buyers. The very fact that sponsors will pull out based on fan behaviour will make this a very high risk investment as revenue will be seen to be under threat. This will further limit an already limited pool.

Cutting down the value of the club won't have much impact as it will still cost billions. There are only 2, 755 billionaires in the world and the vast majority wouldn't be able to afford it even if the club's value dropped by a billion due to fan protests. Just an example; it likely won't drop this much based on only losing this sponsorship deal. The precedent could be an issue, though.

Also, the Glazers would still be, essentially, $2.4bn in profit from their initial investment (before taxes) even if it did drop by a billion and then they sold the club. Honestly, I don't think that would trigger them into selling. I think you will start to see how much damage would need to be done to the club to really pressurise their profit, and get them sweating.

In the end, you could damage the club long term and still not get rid of the Glazers.

There are other issues, also, but this post is long enough.
What about impact on transfers of Dividends paid to Glazers, Consultancy fees paid to Glazers, interest payments made to service debt on Glazers behalf.

Most likely thing to put prospective buyers off is inflated fee Glazers will ask for.

Glazers thought they were joining ESL, huge increase to revenue and big jump in value, they’ve already lost out on that so they won’t want to lose out on more. These guys are greedy, they’re not going to sit there and be happy with what they have so far it’s all about more and more.
 

Bilbo

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I actually doubt it is to do with fan protests. But let us assume it is. Is it actually good? No.

Firstly, future cash flows are taken into account with investments. The club will need to know they can afford signings before they actually make them. If the sponsor was as close to signing as was claimed, it would have played a role in how much can be spent in one transfer window and the relative wages. Losing a sponsorship deal like this will have an impact on the transfer window.

Another point is that 94% of all out goings are club related. If we assume the dividends will also take a hit (interest won't and will remain at 4% of out goings), that means club-related outgoings will be hit by 98% of that £200m. So, £19.6m loss in revenue per year to go on the club.

Where is the easiest place to save money in football? Transfers. Not signing anyone or reducing transfer purchases is the best way to deal with money shortages. The next best is selling players. This will impact our transfer ability and competitiveness. And it will potentially impact sponsorship deals long term e.g. losing big players through having to sell or not bringing in any new big names.

This will also set a precedent in how sponsors behave with us. This will have a long term impact on revenue through sponsors if it happened multiple times. Demand lowers and so does price. Risk heightens and price lowers.

The other issue with this is, if it was really due to the fans, this will be alarming to potential buyers. The very fact that sponsors will pull out based on fan behaviour will make this a very high risk investment as revenue will be seen to be under threat. This will further limit an already limited pool.

Cutting down the value of the club won't have much impact as it will still cost billions. There are only 2, 755 billionaires in the world and the vast majority wouldn't be able to afford it even if the club's value dropped by a billion due to fan protests. Just an example; it likely won't drop this much based on only losing this sponsorship deal. The precedent could be an issue, though.

Also, the Glazers would still be, essentially, $2.4bn in profit from their initial investment (before taxes) even if it did drop by a billion and then they sold the club. Honestly, I don't think that would trigger them into selling. I think you will start to see how much damage would need to be done to the club to really pressurise their profit, and get them sweating.

In the end, you could damage the club long term and still not get rid of the Glazers.

There are other issues, also, but this post is long enough.
Good post. Of those 2,755 billionaires I believe only around 200 have a net worth of 10bn+ (only 1 is British) and even fewer would have enough liquid capital to be able to splash money around with no thought of a return.

United are already monetized to the eyeballs, aside from selling the stadium name. The two obvious routes to a vast increase in the clubs value are the Super League - which is unlikely to be revisited for a number of years - or TV rights which will be tough to fully advantage of and if we did it would also damage the PL product significantly.

At the moment we are not an attractive investment option. People are talking about Daniel Eck buying Arsenal. His net worth is tied up in Spotify stock. He will need massive partner investment to buy Arsenal and those partners will all want a return, and that return will come from the clubs revenue in all likelihood. Its doubtful they would be any better off as a football team even if he managed to pull that deal off.
 

flappyjay

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What about impact on transfers of Dividends paid to Glazers, Consultancy fees paid to Glazers, interest payments made to service debt on Glazers behalf.

Most likely thing to put prospective buyers off is inflated fee Glazers will ask for.

Glazers thought they were joining ESL, huge increase to revenue and big jump in value, they’ve already lost out on that so they won’t want to lose out on more. These guys are greedy, they’re not going to sit there and be happy with what they have so far it’s all about more and more.
If not more money from sponsors get more from selling. Sell Pogba and not get a replacement like they did with Ronaldo.
 

Spoony

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Good post. Of those 2,755 billionaires I believe only around 200 have a net worth of 10bn+ (only 1 is British) and even fewer would have enough liquid capital to be able to splash money around with no thought of a return.

United are already monetized to the eyeballs. Aside from selling the stadium name the two obvious routes to a vast increase in the clubs value are the Super League - which is unlikely to be revisited for a number of years - or TV rights which will be tough to fully advantage of and if we did it would also damage the PL product significantly.

At the moment we are not an attractive investment option. People are talking about Daniel Eck buying Arsenal. His net worth is tied up in Spotify stock. He will need massive partner investment to buy Arsenal and those partners will all want a return, and that return will come from the clubs revenue in all likelihood. Its doubtful they would be any better off as a football team even if he managed to pull that deal off.
Based on nothing at all...I'd be surprised if they'd get £2B... and the new owners would need a billion to update OT, then again so would the Glazers, surely they won't let it completely rot, then again they've not been too bothered about a leaky roof...so...
 

Lappen

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Good post. Of those 2,755 billionaires I believe only around 200 have a net worth of 10bn+ (only 1 is British) and even fewer would have enough liquid capital to be able to splash money around with no thought of a return.

United are already monetized to the eyeballs, aside from selling the stadium name. The two obvious routes to a vast increase in the clubs value are the Super League - which is unlikely to be revisited for a number of years - or TV rights which will be tough to fully advantage of and if we did it would also damage the PL product significantly.

At the moment we are not an attractive investment option. People are talking about Daniel Eck buying Arsenal. His net worth is tied up in Spotify stock. He will need massive partner investment to buy Arsenal and those partners will all want a return, and that return will come from the clubs revenue in all likelihood. Its doubtful they would be any better off as a football team even if he managed to pull that deal off.
Have you already excluded the possibility of selling a big part to the fans? Isent that the prime goal?
 

Beachryan

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Can't decide if it deserves its own thread, but I'm really curious for all those wanting the Glazers out, what would make United an attractive investment for anyone else?

As someone with a bit of knowledge of this, it's categorically a bad investment. Over the last decade our club - the richest one - hasn't made returns comparable to even a moderately-successful fund. The main cost of operations is player wages - which are accelerating far faster than any inflation. And your main competition doesn't have to make money (Chelsea/City/PSG).

If you were approaching the world with $3bn buring a hole in your wallet, MUFC is by any metric a worse choice than a great deal of other options available to you.

The reason it was such an excellent investment for Glazers is because it COST THEM NOTHING. So taking out 20m a year is actually awesome, even if you ignore the asset value.

Any new owners would have to pay at least a few billion - which if you're buying anything else would mean you'd expect returns of at the very least of $150m per year (more than we make).

I really think people are conflating the management of our football club by Ed Woodward and the board with the ownership strcuture. If we're worth, say, $3bn then $20m dividends each year is less than 1%. That's actually amazing.

So please, convince me there is a billionaire out there or investment vehicle that look at United and doesn't see a high-risk, extremely low-return asset.
 

justsomebloke

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I actually doubt it is to do with fan protests. But let us assume it is. Is it actually good? No.

Firstly, future cash flows are taken into account with investments. The club will need to know they can afford signings before they actually make them. If the sponsor was as close to signing as was claimed, it would have played a role in how much can be spent in one transfer window and the relative wages. Losing a sponsorship deal like this will have an impact on the transfer window.

Another point is that 94% of all out goings are club related. If we assume the dividends will also take a hit (interest won't and will remain at 4% of out goings), that means club-related outgoings will be hit by 98% of that £200m. So, £19.6m loss in revenue per year to go on the club.

Where is the easiest place to save money in football? Transfers. Not signing anyone or reducing transfer purchases is the best way to deal with money shortages. The next best is selling players. This will impact our transfer ability and competitiveness. And it will potentially impact sponsorship deals long term e.g. losing big players through having to sell or not bringing in any new big names.

This will also set a precedent in how sponsors behave with us. This will have a long term impact on revenue through sponsors if it happened multiple times. Demand lowers and so does price. Risk heightens and price lowers.

The other issue with this is, if it was really due to the fans, this will be alarming to potential buyers. The very fact that sponsors will pull out based on fan behaviour will make this a very high risk investment as revenue will be seen to be under threat. This will further limit an already limited pool.

Cutting down the value of the club won't have much impact as it will still cost billions. There are only 2, 755 billionaires in the world and the vast majority wouldn't be able to afford it even if the club's value dropped by a billion due to fan protests. Just an example; it likely won't drop this much based on only losing this sponsorship deal. The precedent could be an issue, though.

Also, the Glazers would still be, essentially, $2.4bn in profit from their initial investment (before taxes) even if it did drop by a billion and then they sold the club. Honestly, I don't think that would trigger them into selling. I think you will start to see how much damage would need to be done to the club to really pressurise their profit, and get them sweating.

In the end, you could damage the club long term and still not get rid of the Glazers.

There are other issues, also, but this post is long enough.
Good post, interesting read. Thank you.

I think there's a valid point on the activist side of the argument that nothing is going to change unless you create some real financial damage for the Glazers. But the same steps will cause damage to the club, more or less inevitably. And, that damage must be weighed against the probability that something positive will come out of it all. It seems obvious that the likelihood of the Glazers selling is very low.

Other positives may be more attainable: A greater restraint in taking out dividends, a willingness for fan representation in governing structures, increased investment in OT or the squad as a measure to seek goodwill, a realisation that the financial side eventually isn't going to work if the on-pitch success isn't there.

In the end, there's got to be a viable calculation of cost and benefit, risk and reward. Fans have to decide what's worth pursuing and what isn't, and just what should be attempted achieved, because not all aims call for the same methods.

For my part, I'm not buying into forcing the Glazers out as a strategy. It's just way too unlikely to happen, and it can only be pursued by means that are wholly destructive to the club. Far too much risk and cost, far too little prospective gain. To just go full tilt in pursuit of that aim as if there was no other choice and on no better basis than let's see how far we get is just irresponsible, and likely to damage the club for little gain. So enough with this total war shit.

I would argue that any continuation of this should settle on the second set of aims, ie, behavior change. The Glazers won't change, so that's a question of affecting their calculation, which I think may be attainable. That will also require some disruption of some sort, with some negative consequences. But there's got to be a defined way out for the owners: Do certain things, and the troubles will stop.
 
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Roboc7

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If not more money from sponsors get more from selling. Sell Pogba and not get a replacement like they did with Ronaldo.
So they’ll do what they did then or what did with Lukaku and not replace players, can we blame fans for that?. I don’t remember fans costing us sponsors at those times yet it still happened.

Not much of a consequence when they are already doing it anyway.
 
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VeevaVee

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Remember when people on here were adament fans can't make a difference, mocking anyone who thought otherwise?
 

Mindhunter

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Are you actually being serious? :houllier: Maybe they could stop taking their dividends of 20M every year. Have you even considered that? They have been completely useless owners and guess what? This is how protests work, and this is how we drive them out of the club.
To what end though? What’s the guarantee that we won’t get Glazers 2.0 as owners? I don’t like them either but don’t want to end up in a worse situation with the club in turmoil.
 

Lappen

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This could be our best bet but how much would fans need for a loud enough voice behind the scenes?
I wish I knew! Lets find out! Stop baying murchendise and start support the people that really put some effort in both energy and money in this matter...
 

Spoony

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I wish I knew! Lets find out! Stop baying murchendise and start support the people that really put some effort in both energy and money in this matter...

Or let Kuwait take over and hope they boost the local economy. Could happen.
 

justsomebloke

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Are you actually being serious? :houllier: Maybe they could stop taking their dividends of 20M every year. Have you even considered that? They have been completely useless owners and guess what? This is how protests work, and this is how we drive them out of the club.
No, it isn't. That's your main problem: You don't have a credible strategy. Engagement and commitment isn't enough.
 

flappyjay

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So they’ll do what they did then or what did with Lukaku and not replace players, can we blame fans for that?. I don’t remember fans costing us sponsors at those times yet it still happened.

Not much of a consequence when they are already doing it anyway.
Wasn't part of that money spent on Bruno in Jan. All I am saying is the glazers can also go the Kroenke way.
 

Lappen

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Or let Kuwait take over and hope they boost the local economy. Could happen.
Yes it could. And not the sort of win I hope for. But like I wrote in a previus post. I prefer to try get a win, than stop trying becourse Im more afraid of losing.

The people I think you are thinking of, dose not want a club with bad publecy. They are looking to bay some good reputation. for that I dont think they are intrested in a club with a strong fanbase protesting quite loudely and refusing to use the sponsors murchendise... for that reson I dont think the princes or oblearks will have to big of a intress.
 

Giggsy13

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People thinking this is good is horrible. This will ensure we go further behind the oil and oligarch clubs.

United fans will never win a war of attrition with the Glazers. It’s totally one sided.

What’s next? People saying good we didn’t qualify for the CL as that would mean more money for the Glazers?

Ole and the team are already facing the brunt of the previous protest by having to play 4 games in 8 days but that’s just a temporary pain.

Do fans really want to create permanent pain by going behind the oil clubs in market power?
We’re already far behind the oil clubs. The reality is that the cost of the glazer ownership has been one step forward and two steps backwards. While the club has been turned into a commercial cash cow, we’ve been hindered in our ability to spend to our full potential because of the costs associated with servicing the massive debt.
 

justsomebloke

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How about this for a more moderate aim: No dividends until the club has won the PL. That would constitute an acceptance that the owners need to make money, and an agreement between owners and fans that the way that's going to happen is through success on the pitch.
 

Champ

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The Guardian, Mail, Bloomberg and two others have covered it.
All reporting the original report that was released.

Only one source with nothing from United or THG as yet.

I think there's more to this than meets the eye.