Transgender Athletes

[Pogue Mahone]

The issue it's not only at olympic events, or in professional competitions, it's still a pretty big issue though but it also affects girls trying to get a scholarship. It compromises the whole idea of separating athletes by sex. Also it doesn't have to be a world class athlete, at least not a world class male athlete. In most sports it only takes a trained teen to stomp a world class female athlete. I mean I get your point that they won't represent a majority but it would take only one athlete to disrupt the whole thing and compromise the integrity of a given sport.

That’s a fair point. Didn’t an U16s boys team recently beat the USWNT something like 10 nil?

EDIT: It was an U15s club team and they beat them 5-2. Link.

 

[Rektsanwalt]

First couple of sentences are nonsense. Because non-contact sports aren’t dominated by 18 year olds.

I don’t disagree with the last sentence. Just think this particular example is flawed because it was an adult against teenagers. Jimmy Conors and Martina Navratilova was a better one. He destroyed her despite only being allowed a single serve and she was allowed use the doubles sidelines!

in 2003, the B-Jugend team (meaning 15-17 year old players) of VfB Stuttgart beat the german national team of women 3:0. This team won the world championship in 2003. Obviously in 2003 the state of women's football is not comparable to today, but results like these keep popping up. In 2016, the women's national team of Australia lost 0:7 to the U15 team of the Newcastle Jets. In 2017, USA's national team lost 5:2 against the youth academy team of the FC Dallas.
The physical difference between men in women in sports - generally speaking - is gigantic and leads to gigantic advantages. It's a worlds difference, not only in professional sports and the best 1%, but even more so when it comes to lower skill levels and not highly trained and educated individuals.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

If a male athlete suddenly identifies as non binary can they then enter either male or female competitions? Wouldn’t it be discriminatory to refuse them?

 

[Gehrman]

If a male athlete suddenly identifies as non binary can they then enter either male or female competitions? Wouldn’t it be discriminatory to refuse them?

Wouldn't it first take a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and then at least 12 months of hormone treatment to enter any professional competitions?

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Wouldn't it first take a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and then at least 12 months of hormone treatment to enter any professional competitions?

I don’t know, I didn’t think you had to have hormone treatment to identify as non binary?

 

[Gehrman]

I don’t know, I didn’t think you had to have hormone treatment to identify as non binary?

Well not to indentify but to enter professional womens sports.

 

[Penna]

New Zealand has selected 43-year-old heavyweight weightlifter Laurel Hubbard to compete at the Olympics. She previously competed as a male weightlifter.

It's the first time a trans athlete has been picked for the Olympics, evidently and some people are not happy about it. She didn't transition until she was 35 years old, and since she started competing as a female she has won several elite competitions, whereas she was not that good when competing pre-transition.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...laurel-hubbard-trans-weightlifter-new-zealand

 

[Sky1981]

Wouldn't it first take a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and then at least 12 months of hormone treatment to enter any professional competitions?

This is just a helpless arbitrary line they took to avoid controversy.

It's like guns vs no guns. They always compromise in the middle (more stringent check, no full auto, etc) it's just a populist move to try to satisfy all parties.

How can 12 months of hormone treatment erase tens of years of Male growth? You don't need a study to know that Bodies don't shrink, bones don't shrink, lung capacity doesn't shrink back. How can natural women who trains equally for Olympic suddenly getting voided because Norman Hubbard suddenly decided to become a she? How's that fair?

Even if she don't win gold, she's already way ahead of the curve.

 

[crappycraperson]

New Zealand has selected 43-year-old heavyweight weightlifter Laurel Hubbard to compete at the Olympics. She previously competed as a male weightlifter.

It's the first time a trans athlete has been picked for the Olympics, evidently and some people are not happy about it. She didn't transition until she was 35 years old, and since she started competing as a female she has won several elite competitions, whereas she was not that good when competing pre-transition.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...laurel-hubbard-trans-weightlifter-new-zealand

Going to get a lot of media attention if she wins gold at Olympics.

 

[Raees]

New Zealand has selected 43-year-old heavyweight weightlifter Laurel Hubbard to compete at the Olympics. She previously competed as a male weightlifter.

It's the first time a trans athlete has been picked for the Olympics, evidently and some people are not happy about it. She didn't transition until she was 35 years old, and since she started competing as a female she has won several elite competitions, whereas she was not that good when competing pre-transition.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...laurel-hubbard-trans-weightlifter-new-zealand

Ridiculous.

They need to have their own olympics. In the modern world why do we still only have Men and Women sports... we need to start catering for gender fluidity in its own right.

 

[djembatheking]

New Zealand has selected 43-year-old heavyweight weightlifter Laurel Hubbard to compete at the Olympics. She previously competed as a male weightlifter.

It's the first time a trans athlete has been picked for the Olympics, evidently and some people are not happy about it. She didn't transition until she was 35 years old, and since she started competing as a female she has won several elite competitions, whereas she was not that good when competing pre-transition.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...laurel-hubbard-trans-weightlifter-new-zealand

Feel sorry for the other weightlifters that will be up against her and dedicated their whole lives to try to win an olympic gold .

 

[Gehrman]

This is just a helpless arbitrary line they took to avoid controversy.

It's like guns vs no guns. They always compromise in the middle (more stringent check, no full auto, etc) it's just a populist move to try to satisfy all parties.

How can 12 months of hormone treatment erase tens of years of Male growth? You don't need a study to know that Bodies don't shrink, bones don't shrink, lung capacity doesn't shrink back. How can natural women who trains equally for Olympic suddenly getting voided because Norman Hubbard suddenly decided to become a she? How's that fair?

Even if she don't win gold, she's already way ahead of the curve.

I dont disagree with you.

 

[Zlatattack]

It's ridiculous. A 35 year old bloke decided to take hormones and became a woman a year later. She still has all the physical advantages she had as a 35 year old bloke, especially one who was a professional weightlifter!

Transgender people should be able to compete against each other, it's not fair on female athletes.

 

[kiristao]

Would be interesting to see what was her (when she was male) best lift as compared to what it is now. Will give a pretty straight forward idea of how much of a difference this reduction in testosterone really does.

 

[Ajr]

Would be interesting to see what was her (when she was male) best lift as compared to what it is now. Will give a pretty straight forward idea of how much of a difference this reduction in testosterone really does.

Not sure on weight lifting but my post about tennis ability decrease after 12 months of hormones (only anecdotal evidence I know) was ignored.

 

[Salt Bailly]

Would be interesting to see what was her (when she was male) best lift as compared to what it is now. Will give a pretty straight forward idea of how much of a difference this reduction in testosterone really does.

She didn't take up professional weightlifting until after the transition.

 

[oates]

Not sure on weight lifting but my post about tennis ability decrease after 12 months of hormones (only anecdotal evidence I know) was ignored.

No it wasn't. Not completely.

 

[Alex99]

She didn't take up professional weightlifting until after the transition.

She was a weightlifter pre-transition and didnt compete professionally until after the transition
because she wasn't good enough to compete professionally in male categories.

 

[limerickcitykid]

Would be interesting to see what was her (when she was male) best lift as compared to what it is now. Will give a pretty straight forward idea of how much of a difference this reduction in testosterone really does.

Wiki says at 20 years old she set the junior record for a combined 300kg lift. Her best lift competing in major women’s competitions is a combined 285kg lift.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

If it’s anything where you use physical strength they should be banned. Isn’t fair to the other women competing. Stuff like darts & snooker is fine.

For physical sports the only way around it is to make a separate trans category.

 

[oates]

Wiki says at 20 years old she set the junior record for a combined 300kg lift. Her best lift competing in major women’s competitions is a combined 285kg lift.

Isn't the Women's record around 246kg?

 

[Hugh Jass]

If it’s anything where you use physical strength they should be banned. Isn’t fair to the other women competing. Stuff like darts & snooker is fine.

For physical sports the only way around it is to make a separate trans category.

I would be very interested to see if male snooker players had phyiscal advantages over female snooker players. Maybe in their cue action. Maybe i emphasize because i dont know.

They already have to make the greens in golf smaller for females. One thing that caught my eye was Sergio Garcia saying that even if let women have an advantage against men with regards the length of the greens, they still would struggle with something to do with generating spin.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

It's ridiculous. A 35 year old bloke decided to take hormones and became a woman a year later. She still has all the physical advantages she had as a 35 year old bloke, especially one who was a professional weightlifter!

Transgender people should be able to compete against each other, it's not fair on female athletes.

Yeah this is the best bet. Have a transgender category. The field will be small right now but will continue to grow over the next 20-25 years

I would be very interested to see if male snooker players had phyiscal advantages over female snooker players. Maybe in their cue action. Maybe i emphasize because i dont know.

They already have to make the greens in golf smaller for females. One thing that caught my eye was Sergio Garcia saying that even if let women have an advantage against men with regards the length of the greens, they still would struggle with something to do with generating spin.

Only on the break I think. Snooker is all skill & has next to no emphasis on strength. Women can play against men without the clear disadvantage they would have in contact & physical sports.

 

[Hugh Jass]

Yeah this is the best bet. Have a transgender category. The field will be small right now but will continue to grow over the next 20-25 years


Only on the break I think. Snooker is all skill & has next to no emphasis on strength. Women can play against men without the clear disadvantage they would have in contact & physical sports.

Steve Davis said that they wont ever win the World Championship because they lack the will to just train ten hours a day potting the black. A bit sexist, though the top female snooker player agreed with him.

I would love to see a top female snooker player, just to see if they have any disadvantages cue action wise.

 

[Hugh Jass]

Funny anecdote about the advantages men biologically have over women when it comes to sports.

Serena williams or venus said they could beat any man ranked outside the top 200. One guy then ranked 203 or something like that, challenged them to a match. Apparently this guys training routine involved sitting down drinking lager and smoking cigars most of the day. Anyway he beat her comfortably.

John Mcenroe said that when Serena was ranked number 1 in the womans game, she would be ranked 700 in the mens. He got in a bit of trouble for saying it.

 

[Sky1981]

If a male athlete suddenly identifies as non binary can they then enter either male or female competitions? Wouldn’t it be discriminatory to refuse them?

I don't see why it's discriminatory.

Unlike sexual preferences and religious freedom professional sports aren't essential to become a human being. You can do with not competing, or at least compete in your original gender without having to use hormone blocker. You can compete without a problem, you're just not guaranteed an easier win.

Gender classification in sports was never intended as segregation, but common sense, since the first and foremost biggest difference in classifications depends on whether you're born a male or female. Then they classified them into welter weights, heavyweight, age, weight class etc. There's nothing discriminatory about it. It's mean to provide a fair sporting event.

You can be rejected to participate based on your weight (Boxing for example), age (Football), amateur / pro (racing), qualification (racing), I fail to see why it's not fair.

 

[hellhunter]

Funny anecdote about the advantages men biologically have over women when it comes to sports.

Serena williams or venus said they could beat any man ranked outside the top 200. One guy then ranked 203 or something like that, challenged them to a match. Apparently this guys training routine involved sitting down drinking lager and smoking cigars most of the day. Anyway he beat her comfortably.

John Mcenroe said that when Serena was ranked number 1 in the womans game, she would be ranked 700 in the mens. He got in a bit of trouble for saying it.

When they were teenagers, no?

 

[Hugh Jass]

When they were teenagers, no?

When she was number one in the females tennis game. Like when she was at the top of her game.

 

[mitChley]

Yeah this is the best bet. Have a transgender category. The field will be small right now but will continue to grow over the next 20-25 years

Local weightlifting comps struggle to get more than 2 or 3 lifters (sometimes 1 or none) in certain categories, there will never be enough transgender athletes for such a thing. Not that I can think of any other solution that is fair, I just can't see it being practical.

 

[limerickcitykid]

Isn't the Women's record around 246kg?

348kg, weight categories are constantly changing though so the records are weird. The record for the current weight class she’ll compete in is 335kg.

 

[Wolverine]

Interesting to see Tennis brought up here because we had Renee Richards male-to-female transwoman competing and highest rank was 20th and no WTA titles to name. Never made it past 3rd round in US open (eliminated twice in the first round).

There's Cece Telfer, track and field athlete that right wing media I remember having an aneurysm over who hardly did very well either
https://www.outsports.com/2019/3/10/18257930/ncaa-cece-telfer-trans-woman-athlete-track-field

And a lot of trans athletes who compete lose too, and many just give unremarkable performances. They're hardly the unstoppable juggernauts as they're sometimes claimed or believed to be. There's a reasonable article here from a MMA woman's fighter who was previously against Fallon Fox competing here I found interesting
https://www.outsports.com/2021/6/16/22536714/rosi-sexton-mma-trans-athletes-fallon-fox

Its tricky because I think the goalpost isn't as often claimed "we don't want trans athletes to dominate women's sport". Because they've been allowed to compete for a while, 2003 in the Olympics according to IOC guidelines but instead its closer to "we don't any of them winning anything" at all as we're seeing now with Laurel Hubbard potentially getting gold (apparently tricky though since getting a debilitating elbow injury at the 2018 Commonwealth Games) and recently with Veronica Ivy's achievements in cycling.

 

[Beans]

I'm no expert so forgive me if this is the wrong way of looking at it, but it seems to me that the sports should be segregated by sex, not gender identification, since the whole idea of doing so in the first place was to allow people without a Y chromosome the chance to make teams at school that were full of people with Y chromosomes that were bigger and faster. At least as far as the US laws that require equal access, was there a similar idea with the Olympics?

But I'm happy to let the people with Y chromosomes decide what they want, since this is their competition. Maybe trans women are best to compete with non-trans women until there are enough athletes to allow them to have their own competition.

 

[mitChley]

348kg, weight categories are constantly changing though so the records are weird. The record for the current weight class she’ll compete in is 335kg.

Super heavyweight records are so daft, moves from 105+ to 109+ and they reset the records despite them being held by people weighing (in the men's case) about 65kg more than that anyway.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Local weightlifting comps struggle to get more than 2 or 3 lifters (sometimes 1 or none) in certain categories, there will never be enough transgender athletes for such a thing. Not that I can think of any other solution that is fair, I just can't see it being practical.

I get what you’re saying but what is the alternative? Imagine being a woman & working your ass off your entire life to get to the Olympics & missing out on a gold medal to someone who was a guy 3 years ago. It just doesn’t seem fair. I understand being inclusive but I think that female athletes should be the ones who make the decision here.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

Question, Why is chess split up into men's and women's categories?

 

[OleBoiii]

Question, Why is chess split up into men's and women's categories?

Contrary to popular belief the pieces are actually heavy as feck.

 

[NotThatSoph]

I get what you’re saying but what is the alternative? Imagine being a woman & working your ass off your entire life to get to the Olympics & missing out on a gold medal to someone who was a guy 3 years ago. It just doesn’t seem fair. I understand being inclusive but I think that female athletes should be the ones who make the decision here.

Why are you imagining that? Seems a bit weird.

 

[arnie_ni]

Why are you imagining that? Seems a bit weird.

Because that's the topic he's discussing, so he's thinking about it?

 

[mitChley]

I get what you’re saying but what is the alternative? Imagine being a woman & working your ass off your entire life to get to the Olympics & missing out on a gold medal to someone who was a guy 3 years ago. It just doesn’t seem fair. I understand being inclusive but I think that female athletes should be the ones who make the decision here.

I don't think there is an alternative which is fair, but life isn't fair I guess. Laurel probably doesn't consider it fair having to live in a male body for 30 odd years despite identifying as a woman.

Only thing I can think of is reducing testosterone levels required further? If that solves the problem I don't know. Gun to my head I'd probably ban MTF athletes competing alongside athletes born female, it's shit and unfair but maybe the less unfair choice.

I'd also add that those women who are competing against Laurel for Olympic gold have more than likely been through a state sponsored doping program most of their lives, so also not fair. I know our (GB) athlete Emily in the category is clean, but she won't be (although I'd love it if she did) going for gold.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Why are you imagining that? Seems a bit weird.

What do you mean? Im not literally talking about myself I’m saying but yourself in a female athletes shoes & empathise how they may feel.