Transgender Athletes

[Stack]

I suspect this will become an even more debated topic once the Olympics starts. New Zealand has a woman weightlifter called Laurel Hubbard who transitioned from a man at age 35. Laurel had previously competed in weightlifting as a man from the age of 20 but only at National level. She will compete for NZ at the coming Olympics aa a woman in the Weightlifting section.

I find this to be a confusing and slightly difficult topic as I have the unusual situation of having 2 different friends who both have children who transitioned from young woman to young man in recent years. I have watched the families give complete love and support to their children and happily for the most part the transition has been a successful and fulfilling process for both. Its been a privilege and inspiring to witness the approach of both families and the outcome, both children are fantastic young men and great to know.

The difficulty I have with Laurel is that even though the Olympic committee deem her eligible I still wonder about the fairness. I think steroid cheats should be banned permanently because their bodies have been built to the level they attain using steroids and some of the gains from steroid use may be a permanent gain. ( I could be completely wrong on this and welcome any corrections.).
With the transition of Laurel from man to woman at the age of 35 I do wonder if she has benefited from the base building of muscle and strength as a man and despite the hormone treatment think its unfair on other female athletes.

I find it a conflicting topic given my personal knowledge via friends and so the nastyness of these sorts of debates can be difficult to see. I also wonder about the coming publicity and how any public or media discussions will impact those transitioning or transitioned, it is possible it might cause some stress there.
I also wonder how the other athletes will feel, I have seen some opposition already and can imagine a resentment building. This is in many respects a pretty difficult topic.

 

[VorZakone]

How do non-transgender female athletes feel about all this?

 

[MadMike]

How do non-transgender female athletes feel about all this?

Quick google...

Allowing transgender weightlifter Laurel Hubbard to compete at the Olympics is unfair and "like a bad joke", says rival Anna Vanbellinghen.

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/sp...pics-bad-joke-anna-vanbellinghen-b938073.html

 

[Pogue Mahone]

How do non-transgender female athletes feel about all this?

Some don’t have a problem with it. Some of them are pretty pissed off.

There’s a few threads on this topic. They tend to generate more heat than light. Not sure if the results of this study had been published the last time this was discussed.

The research, published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine, found that before starting their hormone treatment trans women performed 31% more push-ups and 15% more sit-ups in one minute on average than a biological women younger than 30 in the air force – and ran 1.5 miles 21% faster.

Yet after suppressing their testosterone for two years – a year longer than IOC guidelines – they were still 12% faster on average than biological females.

The trans women also retained a 10% advantage in push-ups and a 6% advantage in sit-ups for the first two years after taking hormones, before their advantage disappeared. But the researchers say they “may underestimate the advantage in strength that trans women have over cis women … because trans women will have a higher power output than cis women when performing an equivalent number of push-ups”.

 

[OleBoiii]

Oh no!

 

[berbatrick]

Some don’t have a problem with it. Some of them are pretty pissed off.

There’s a few threads on this topic. They tend to generate more heat than light. Not sure if the results of this study had been published the last time this was discussed.

i'm too lazy to read the full work, but from the quote:

The research, published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine, found that before starting their hormone treatment trans women performed 31% more push-ups and 15% more sit-ups in one minute on average than a biological women younger than 30 in the air force – and ran 1.5 miles 21% faster.

Yet after suppressing their testosterone for two years – a year longer than IOC guidelines – they were still 12% faster on average than biological females.

The trans women also retained a 10% advantage in push-ups and a 6% advantage in sit-ups for the first two years after taking hormones, before their advantage disappeared.

the bit in bold - did they quantify when the advtg disappeared?

unrelated, but this part was also interesting:

The academic research also highlighted the benefits of testosterone for trans men. Before taking the hormone, they performed 43% fewer push-ups and ran 1.5 miles 15% slower than their male peers. But after one year there was no longer any difference in push-ups or run time, and the number of sit-ups performed by trans men exceeded the average performance of their male peers.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

i'm too lazy to read the full work, but from the quote:




the bit in bold - did they quantify when the advtg disappeared?

I’m too lazy too! I’m presuming they mean the advantage disappeared after two years. With the caveat (see longer quote above) that no longe being able to do more press-ups doesn’t necessarily mean they’re not still generating a bit more power in their first few press-ups.

 

[MadMike]

Some don’t have a problem with it. Some of them are pretty pissed off.

There’s a few threads on this topic. They tend to generate more heat than light. Not sure if the results of this study had been published the last time this was discussed.

That raises a lot of questions. Because if under the current framework a trans female athlete is required to take T-blockers for 12 months minimum, but retains an advantage for at least 24 months, then that could easily get abused by going off T-blockers for a year or two and starting up again 12 months before the National-level competitions that are used as Olympic qualifiers.

Can trans male athletes compete at all, or are they barred because of they would need testosterone injections which are a banned substance?

 

[lefty_jakobz]

I get the whole equality argument but surely its unfair for the women athletes in this instance?
The transgendered athlete would have 35 years in a mans body built up male muscle tissue, stamina etc, do the hormones reduce these?
Why dont they just have a transgender event ie they have men competing with men women with women trans people with trans people or is that just too simplistic a view?

 

[MadMike]

I get the whole equality argument but surely its unfair for the women athletes in this instance?
The transgendered athlete would have 35 years in a mans body built up male muscle tissue, stamina etc, do the hormones reduce these?
Why dont they just have a transgender event ie they have men competing with men women with women trans people with trans people or is that just too simplistic a view?

Evidently, that's what the studies clearly suggest. If they do so enough to make it fair or when does parity (on average) get achieved, it's another question. We probably don't quite know yet.

 

[Wibble]

I wonder if there is an answer that is fair and equitable in both gender equity and sporting terms. I can see why you would be deeply pissed off losing a strength/speed medal to a transgender athlete but I'm also deeply uncomfortable with sporting organisations essentially mandating someone to have to drug themselves to compete and even more so when it isn't the result of gender reassignment.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

Evidently, that's what the studies clearly suggest. If they do so enough to make it fair or when does parity (on average) get achieved, it's another question. We probably don't quite know yet.

Why cant that transgendered person compete in the mens event?

In terms of fairness there should be a separate ‘gender’ class for all those who are/have transitioned. So youd have male events, female events, and transgender events.

 

[Trequarista10]

How do non-transgender female athletes feel about all this?

There was a good documentary by Anna Navratilova a couple years ago. She was quite outspoken before hand about trans athletes competing in the women's game and having an unfair advantage. She explored the topic with some trans athletes and by the end she was more sympathetic towards them given the obstacles and discrimination they face to participate in sport at all, but still felt it was a nuanced issue that needed careful implementation of rules.

 

[Green_Red]

Change the definition of rules around gender to be based on chromosomes?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Why cant that transgendered person compete in the mens event?

Because they identify as a woman.

In terms of fairness there should be a separate ‘gender’ class for all those who are/have transitioned. So youd have male events, female events, and transgender events.

That's exclusionary and would probably make the whole process of transitioning worse than it likely already is. It is a difficult situation and given the quotes above perhaps transgender athletes need to demonstrate that sufficient time has passed such that they no longer retain an inherent advantage/disadvantage over their cis-gender competitors.

 

[Stack]

Why cant that transgendered person compete in the mens event?

In terms of fairness there should be a separate ‘gender’ class for all those who are/have transitioned. So youd have male events, female events, and transgender events.

Transgender classes seem the fairest solution but I doubt we have enough transgender athletes to make the events worthwhile.

 

[Stack]

Because they identify as a woman.



That's exclusionary and would probably make the whole process of transitioning worse than it likely already is. It is a difficult situation and given the quotes above perhaps transgender athletes need to demonstrate that sufficient time has passed such that they no longer retain an inherent advantage/disadvantage over their cis-gender competitors.

I hadnt thought about the exclusionary aspect. My worry about sufficient time passing is that the bodies abilities will still have had the baseline built on an unfair advantage but i dont know exactly what the science says about this so am confused on it.

 

[Stack]

I wonder if there is an answer that is fair and equitable in both gender equity and sporting terms. I can see why you would be deeply pissed off losing a strength/speed medal to a transgender athlete but I'm also deeply uncomfortable with sporting organisations essentially mandating someone to have to drug themselves to compete and even more so when it isn't the result of gender reassignment.

Thats a whole new angle I hadnt thought about. Im guessing transgender athletes at the Olympics will have to undergo drug testing every time they compete

 

[lefty_jakobz]

There was a good documentary by Anna Navratilova a couple years ago. She was quite outspoken before hand about trans athletes competing in the women's game and having an unfair advantage. She explored the topic with some trans athletes and by the end she was more sympathetic towards them given the obstacles and discrimination they face to participate in sport at all, but still felt it was a nuanced issue that needed careful implementation of rules.

It must be open to abuse, if say someone who is obsessed with being a tennis player and isnt good enough to compete in the mens game, they transition to a female to realise their dreams, and once achieve that dream go back and transistion back

Because they identify as a woman.



That's exclusionary and would probably make the whole process of transitioning worse than it likely already is. It is a difficult situation and given the quotes above perhaps transgender athletes need to demonstrate that sufficient time has passed such that they no longer retain an inherent advantage/disadvantage over their cis-gender competitors.

Would the science prove that after X amount of time there is no advantage from a transitioning male to female (or vice versa) over their other gender competitors?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Would the science prove that after X amount of time there is no advantage from a transitioning male to female (or vice versa) over their other gender competitors?

The research, published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine, found that before starting their hormone treatment trans women performed 31% more push-ups and 15% more sit-ups in one minute on average than a biological women younger than 30 in the air force – and ran 1.5 miles 21% faster.

Yet after suppressing their testosterone for two years – a year longer than IOC guidelines – they were still 12% faster on average than biological females.

The trans women also retained a 10% advantage in push-ups and a 6% advantage in sit-ups for the first two years after taking hormones, before their advantage disappeared.

As above it appears that some advantages are retained (speed) and some disappear (strength and endurance). It's definitely a tricky subject.

 

[Trequarista10]

It must be open to abuse, if say someone who is obsessed with being a tennis player and isnt good enough to compete in the mens game, they transition to a female to realise their dreams, and once achieve that dream go back and transistion back

I don't think transitioning and detransitioning is easy, biologically. To go to the extent that I think would be required to pass the current regulations would be insanity. That said, I don't fully know all of the ins and outs. Pardon the pun

 

[lefty_jakobz]

I don't think transitioning and detransitioning is easy, biologically. To go to the extent that I think would be required to pass the current regulations would be insanity. That said, I don't fully know all of the ins and outs. Pardon the pun

Im sorry to be honest I dont really know the whole ‘ins and outs’ of the transitioning process either. Going through the whole transition to detransition (is this actually a term or have I just invented it?) would most likely kill the person, or the very least send them psychotic

 

[Tyrion]

I understand that it's tricky but my default is that trans women shouldn't be allowed to compete in women's sports.

 

[JakeC]

It's good to see some nuance in here.

Should a man be allowed to claim he's a woman and immediately be eligible to compete in female competition? I don't think so.

Should a pre pubescent boy be allowed to medially bkock puberty to allow himself to become a woman in the future? Again, I don't think that should be allowed in most cases.

Does that negatively impact trans women, who find themselves in the middle of, pardon the pun, no man's land? Without a doubt.

If, and maybe there has been (I'm by no means ridiculously clued in here) there are studies to show that there are no perceivable differences between a trans woman with regards to her bone density, muscle mass, etc, then it becomes a social issue instead of a medical one, and anybody against it is a bigot.

 

[Lay]

I understand that it's tricky but my default is that trans women shouldn't be allowed to compete in women's sports.

Yeah that’s my thinking too. I still think it was incredibly negligent for whoever the company was that allowed Fallon Fox, trans athlete to compete in MMA against women. She lost one fight, granted, but she was obviously so much stronger than the other women.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

If, and maybe there has been (I'm by no means ridiculously clued in here) there are studies to show that there are no perceivable differences between a trans woman with regards to her bone density, muscle mass, etc, then it becomes a social issue instead of a medical one, and anybody against it is a bigot.

Agreed.

 

[Wibble]

It must be open to abuse, if say someone who is obsessed with being a tennis player and isnt good enough to compete in the mens game, they transition to a female to realise their dreams, and once achieve that dream go back and transistion back

Of all the possible issues and concerns this has to the the least important and relevant.

 

[Sky1981]

Most of them will literally obliterate the competition beyond parody level.

It doesnt take any study to know that they possess unfair advantage.

The best women athletes that trains years and years since childhood shouldnt be losing to such a wide gap easilly by a trans women if everything else is on a level terms.

 

[Foxbatt]

I wonder if there is an answer that is fair and equitable in both gender equity and sporting terms. I can see why you would be deeply pissed off losing a strength/speed medal to a transgender athlete but I'm also deeply uncomfortable with sporting organisations essentially mandating someone to have to drug themselves to compete and even more so when it isn't the result of gender reassignment.

This i agree with you. It's not transgender because they were born as females and born with female sex organs. It's not their fault that they produce more testosterone than average woman. This is an absolute scam and is discrimination.

 

[matherto]

Could they introduce a balance of performance?

They do this in car racing to equalise the different types and approaches, so find out the performance level of the trans athlete and take the appropriate measures to ensure a fair competition within a tolerance? The trans athlete completing a certain weight equals a lower weight for the average female competition?

 

[zing]

https://sportsscientists.com/2019/03/on-transgender-athletes-and-performance-advantages/

Read this a year ago and found it very good.

 

[Carolina Red]

https://sportsscientists.com/2019/03/on-transgender-athletes-and-performance-advantages/

Read this a year ago and found it very good.

That’s a very good read. Thanks for posting it.

 

[Gehrman]

No, I don't think transwomen should be allowed to compete against women in the higher levels of professional sport. I think in the end it's something that the female athletes should decide.

 

[Penna]

Could they introduce a balance of performance?

They do this in car racing to equalise the different types and approaches, so find out the performance level of the trans athlete and take the appropriate measures to ensure a fair competition within a tolerance? The trans athlete completing a certain weight equals a lower weight for the average female competition?

That might work for individual sports, but you have trans women competing in team sports, too - for instance, Hannah Mouncey, who played handball for the Australian men's team and then after she'd transitioned, then played for the women's team.

 

[arnie_ni]

Could they introduce a balance of performance?

They do this in car racing to equalise the different types and approaches, so find out the performance level of the trans athlete and take the appropriate measures to ensure a fair competition within a tolerance? The trans athlete completing a certain weight equals a lower weight for the average female competition?

So say its a weightlifting competition, and the highest lift be a female is say 100kg, the tran athlete might need to lift 110kg to win the event?

How do you measure that though?

 

[Penna]

Is this talking about Caster Semenya?

Castor Semenya is an entirely different situation.

 

[Sky1981]

Could they introduce a balance of performance?

They do this in car racing to equalise the different types and approaches, so find out the performance level of the trans athlete and take the appropriate measures to ensure a fair competition within a tolerance? The trans athlete completing a certain weight equals a lower weight for the average female competition?

In theory this is what they should do,

or just ask the trans women to compete in men's section but lower class. (e.g. if you're heavy weight before you transitioned you'll be in welterweight after transition), but off course we can't possibly draw the line. Infact most sports aren't equal to begin with, some men/women are blessed with biologically better genes, but alas, where do we draw the line.

Class and gender separation aren't mean to be discriminate, it's meant to make the playing field level. Separation between gender shouldn't be seen as discriminatory.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

My take on this is that trans athletes should be allowed/encouraged to compete in all amateur sports providing it is safe to do so (which will always pose a conundrum for sports like rugby) but when it comes to competing at the very highest level, with world records/olympic medals etc up for grabs then they have to be excluded. It’s a bit shit for those individuals affected but genuinely elite athletes are such a tiny proportion of humanity as a whole (with genuinely elite athletes who happen to be trans even rarer) so won’t be relevant to the vast vast majority of people in the world. The concept of fairness and a level playing field in elite sports is too important to allow this muddying of the water, when all the evidence shows how impossible it is to remove the obvious physical advantages that trans women have over cis women.

 

[Conor]

I think that in this case(and most individual sports I can think of really), it's completely unfair, and that the best solution would be for transgender athletes to have their own division. The testing they do for testosterone levels is laughable, M2F transgender athletes are allowed to have something like x4 the testosterone levels of women and still be eligible to compete with them. The physical frame of this particular athlete alone has been built over 35 years of being a man, how can it possibly be fair for them to compete against someone who has spent their whole life as a woman, with the accompanying testosterone levels etc. that go with that?

 

[The Corinthian]

My take on this is that trans athletes should be allowed/encouraged to compete in all amateur sports providing it is safe to do so (which will always pose a conundrum for sports like rugby) but when it comes to competing at the very highest level, with world records/olympic medals etc up for grabs then they have to be excluded. It’s a bit shit for those individuals affected but genuinely elite athletes are such a tiny proportion of humanity as a whole (with genuinely elite athletes who happen to be trans even rarer) so won’t be relevant to the vast vast majority of people in the world. The concept of fairness and a level playing field in elite sports is too important to allow this muddying of the water, when all the evidence shows how impossible it is to remove the obvious physical advantages that trans women have over cis women.

This sounds the most sensible approach.

Also bear in mind that the pool of trans athletes in say...2030+ will be much larger than it is now, so there will be a possibility to host trans sports alongside cis sports.