Transgender Athletes

[oates]

Human rights and dignity are more important than sporting competitions by such a massive factor that I'm surprised it's such a debate amongst sensible thinking folk really.

On the whole I see sensible thinking folk falling over themselves backwards to promote their dignity, to try and understand and empathise.

However, sporting competition and particularly those of the Olympics where Excellence, Respect and Friendship are the three core values of Olympism are based on people competing in Fairness and Parity, a level playing field being a cliche but always at the top of any events needs. Sensible thinking folk want to be fair to transgender athletes but you don't stop considering cis genders - you don't throw out consideration for them do we?.

The majority of sports, athletes train almost their whole lives, from being children if they are serious about the love of their sport, some only have a very narrow window to compete at the highest level and sensible thinking folk don't throw the baby out with the bathwater just to be fair to one tiny sector of athletes demanding a parity with cis genders when it quite clearly wouldn't exist in most athletic sports. The answer has to be to allow and celebrate transgenders competing, but among themselves for the foreseeable future. Until we, if ever we do, come to an understanding that all can compete fairly together.

edit. btw, we'll know how they stack up with cis gender athletes because we'll see their times, distances and technical performances in the records of competition.

 

[Conor]

Human rights and dignity are more important than sporting competitions by such a massive factor that I'm surprised it's such a debate amongst sensible thinking folk really.

What a ridiculous take. What about the 'rights and dignity' of all of the athletes that have dedicated every moment of their whole lives to a sport? Again, I will go back to the concrete example of female weightlifting in the Olympics, the testing for a transgender M2F athlete allows them to have upwards of x4 times the amount of testosterone in their body that a female produces naturally. If any cis female athlete was tested before competition and found to have that much testosterone in their system, they would be banned from competing. I'd love to hear any 'sensible thinking folk' explain the fairness in that situation.

 

[shaky]

On the whole I see sensible thinking folk falling over themselves backwards to promote their dignity, to try and understand and empathise.

However, sporting competition and particularly those of the Olympics where Excellence, Respect and Friendship are the three core values of Olympism are based on people competing in Fairness and Parity, a level playing field being a cliche but always at the top of any events needs. Sensible thinking folk want to be fair to transgender athletes but you don't stop considering cis genders - you don't throw out consideration for them do we?.

The majority of sports, athletes train almost their whole lives, from being children if they are serious about the love of their sport, some only have a very narrow window to compete at the highest level and sensible thinking folk don't throw the baby out with the bathwater just to be fair to one tiny sector of athletes demanding a parity with cis genders when it quite clearly wouldn't exist in most athletic sports. The answer has to be to allow and celebrate transgenders competing, but among themselves for the foreseeable future. Until we, if ever we do, come to an understanding that all can compete fairly together.

edit. btw, we'll know how they stack up with cis gender athletes because we'll see their times, distances and technical performances in the records of competition.

It's not about being fair to one tiny section of athletes, it's about recognising transgender people, without exception, as the gender they are identifying with. When you start making exceptions, in sport for example, you are no longer treating transgender athletes as equal humans. Yes, it's unfair on those who have trained for a sporting event, maybe for their whole lives, maybe it's unfair on the guy who worked his life for his dream job, only to be told that the place he wants to work has finally realised that they need more diversity in the boardroom, so they are looking for female candidates only or whatever. Social change isn't going to be 100% "fair" on everyone and a few people are going to end up more hard done by than others through no fault of their own, but that's not a good enough reason to stop such change happening.

 

[oates]

It's not about being fair to one tiny section of athletes, it's about recognising transgender people, without exception, as the gender they are identifying with. When you start making exceptions, in sport for example, you are no longer treating transgender athletes as equal humans. Yes, it's unfair on those who have trained for a sporting event, maybe for their whole lives, maybe it's unfair on the guy who worked his life for his dream job, only to be told that the place he wants to work has finally realised that they need more diversity in the boardroom, so they are looking for female candidates only or whatever. Social change isn't going to be 100% "fair" on everyone and a few people are going to end up more hard done by than others through no fault of their own, but that's not a good enough reason to stop such change happening.

Well you could have just said that you want fairness but only for transgender people. I could more quickly understand that and disagree with it at the same time instead of reading about jobs in the workplace.

Fairness For All! (but only transgenders).

 

[shaky]

Well you could have just said that you want fairness but only for transgender people. I could more quickly understand that and disagree with it at the same time instead of reading about jobs in the workplace.

Fairness For All! (but only transgenders).

Equality for everyone in society. If the "fairness" of a few sporting competitions needs to be compromised for this greater goal, then it's an absolutely insignificant price to pay in my view. You are obviously free to disagree.

 

[oates]

Equality for everyone in society. If the "fairness" of a few sporting competitions needs to be compromised for this greater goal, then it's an absolutely insignificant price to pay in my view. You are obviously free to disagree.

Thank you for allowing me to disagree. Obviously this may be something we will never agree on but Equality in Society isn't enjoying an unfair advantage due to the history of their body. Equality isn't devising some other equality to include some but exclude others and I think you'll have to work much harder to find it. I think sensible thinking folk will appreciate that.

 

[OleBoiii]

@shaky

What if the long-term result of transgender athletes means that cis-gendered women no longer can hope to reach the top? Is that fair and dignified in your opinion?

Even in the trans-community you will find many people who agree that this is a bad idea. Don't pretend that this is something the whole community view as an attack on them.

 

[shaky]

@shaky

What if the long-term result of transgender athletes means that cis-gendered women no longer can hope to reach the top? Is that fair and dignified in your opinion?

Even in the trans-community you will find many people who agree that this is a bad idea. Don't pretend that this is something the whole community view as an attack on them.

I'm not pretending anything. Do i really need to add a disclaimer before typing my opinions, that these are MY opinions and I speak for nobody else?

 

[Mike Smalling]

This is one of those topics that conservatives love to point to as part of their 'the left has gone insane' shtick, but I doubt many people are actually of the opinion that trans women should be allowed to compete with biological women at the highest/professional levels. Would love to see some polling on this actually.

There are obviously nuances to this, but it seems obvious that they would have an unfair advantage when it comes to speed, strength and size, which would give some sort of edge in most sports. Perhaps it is an extreme example, but take a look at Hannah Mouncey who transitioned and has played both handball and Australian football competitively.

Spoiler: Short clip

Before transitioning she was not even particularly big for a male handball player, but looks monstrous compared to the women players. How is this fair?

 

[Kag]

I don’t want to follow a sporting world in which Serena Williams may not exist as the superstar she does, or one in which Nicola Adams or Katie Taylor get killed in the ring.

Allow transgender athletes to compete in female disciplines and this is the worst case scenario.

This is an imperfect discussion, sadly. I make my argument in the knowledge that it is probably discriminatory in the eyes of some folk, but the idea that we allow biological men (and all the advantages that come with that) to compete in female disciplines seems wrong, unsafe and downright unfair. Disallowing them the opportunity to compete is probably unfair, too, but the alternative is objectively worse.

I dislike the idea inherently, but a separate category for transgender women is the least bad outcome, in my view.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Could just remove gender as a category for sports?

 

[OleBoiii]

these are MY opinions and I speak for nobody else?

But who are you fighting for, if not the rights of trans-people?

Also, I would argue that the very pillar of "equality" is "fairness". There is a reason for why proponents for equality want don't want equal tax rates for everyone. This is a case where fairness trumps equality in the literal sense. Sure, you could argue that the long term goal of this is more equality in the form of social mobility, but I don't see how allowing transgender athletes to dominate certain sports is based on the idea of equality and fairness.

Based on your logic, wouldn't an even better solution be to disregard gender completely and have everyone compete as equals?

 

[Bosws87]

I think the whole idea that someone born as a man or a women that then changes "gender" can compete in the opposite genders sport is ridiculous.

Its not unfair at all telling someone born as a man they can't take part at womens elite level sport, frankly its a load of bollocks.

 

[shaky]

But who are you fighting for, if not the rights of trans-people?

Also, I would argue that the very pillar of "equality" is "fairness". There is a reason for why proponents for equality want don't want equal tax rates for everyone. This is a case where fairness trumps equality in the literal sense. Sure, you could argue that the long term goal of this is more equality in the form of social mobility, but I don't see how allowing transgender athletes to dominate certain sports is based on the idea of equality and fairness.

Based on your logic, wouldn't an even better solution be to disregard gender completely and have everyone compete as equals?

I'm not fighting for anyone's rights here really. I'm just stating my opinions on the subject. I know nothing said here will change anything in the world one bit. Do you think you're on some sort of crusade to save the sporting integrity of women's athletics by debating on the caf? I just really don't think sport is that important compared to other issues in the world. The way I see it, if an athlete cares more about their own personal achievements than treating transwomen as women, it says more about their character than anything they could ever achieve in the sport would.

 

[Ajr]

UTR (Universal Tennis Rating) is a rating that is the same for any gender/age and rates everyone against each other from 1(lowest) to 16.5(Male pro)
I can tell you all this after 1.5 year of HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy) on tennis performance.
A 12.5 UTR two years ago, (level of NCAA division 1 player/lowest pro level male/pro female) after the hrt now rated a 8. Thats the equivalent of a good high school player in America or a male high competitive club level player.

 

[oates]

UTR (Universal Tennis Rating) is a rating that is the same for any gender/age and rates everyone against each other from 1(lowest) to 16.5(Male pro)
I can tell you all this after 1.5 year of HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy) on tennis performance.
A 12.5 UTR two years ago, (level of NCAA division 1 player/lowest pro level male/pro female) after the hrt now rated a 8. Thats the equivalent of a good high school player in America or a male high competitive club level player.

I suppose that's nice to be aware of.

 

[OleBoiii]

if an athlete cares more about their own personal achievements than treating transwomen as women

These are not mutually exclusive! You can believe that transwomen are women and still acknowledge that they may still have a biological advantage in sports. Many transpeople already acknowledge this.

 

[Rajma]

I think the whole idea that someone born as a man or a women that then changes "gender" can compete in the opposite genders sport is ridiculous.

Its not unfair at all telling someone born as a man they can't take part at womens elite level sport, frankly its a load of bollocks.

I have nothing against amateur level but you have to say that allowing it at a pro level, where livelihoods and life-time hard work and effort has been put in by the participants, it would make a bit of the mockery.

 

[Alex99]

That's exactly what they did to Caster Semenya. She is not even transgender. She was born a female with female sex organs and no male sex organs.

Caster Semenya was born intersex, has XY chromosomes, is very likely to have internal testes, and high, natural testosterone levels as a result.

There's a lot that needs to be properly studied in sport if a level playing field is going to be maintained while allowing the participation of intersex and transgender athletes.

 

[shaky]

These are not mutually exclusive! You can believe that transwomen are women and still acknowledge that they may still have a biological advantage in sports. Many transpeople already acknowledge this.

And many transpeople probably don't believe it's that relevant compared to the bigger picture. That was a guess. I am not speaking for them, as I have already pointed out, these are my opinions. Why are you even bothering to point out that some people don't hold the same view as me? I could equally point out that many cisgender sportswomen agree with my point of view, as if that's some sort of counter to your side of the debate. The unmentioned thing here is that we all know the sporting intergrity issue is by far not the biggest issue when it comes to trans rights, but it is a convenient vessel for transphobes to "legitimately" push their anti-trans agendas. I don't believe it's happening on this thread but it certainly happens. To borrow the boring old Brexit racism trope, not everyone who is against trans women competing equally in women's sports is a transphobe, but every transphobe is against trans women competing equally in women's sports.

 

[Conor]

The way I see it, if an athlete cares more about their own personal achievements than treating transwomen as women, it says more about their character than anything they could ever achieve in the sport would.

Complete and utter nonsense. I could just as easily say that if a transgender women, with a distinct biological advantage over every female in the sport they want to compete in, still wants to compete in that sport(while being completely aware of their advantage), then they care more about their own personal achievements than every other woman in the world of sport. Let's not forget we are talking about women here as well, this is hardly a straight, white male situation with regards to privilege/equality.

 

[shaky]

Complete and utter nonsense. I could just as easily say that if a transgender women, with a distinct biological advantage over every female in the sport they want to compete in, still wants to compete in that sport(while being completely aware of their advantage), then they care more about their own personal achievements than every other woman in the world of sport. Let's not forget we are talking about women here as well, this is hardly a straight, white male situation with regards to privilege/equality.

I seem to be rustling too many jimmies here now. I only planned to voice my opinion on the subject, which I have done, so i'll leave it at that.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

Annoying topic because its the bad type of complicated. The take you hold originally that seems really sensible starts folding under any real scrutiny. For example, my initial take pre reading about it, is essentially the south park skit, that mtf transgender athletes hold an almost insurmountable biological advantage that would make a mockery of women's competitions eventually. However there's so many issues that get highlighted with the current way we segregate sporting competitions if that's a concern. There are already massively advantages and disadvantages Genetically between members of the same sex in terms of height/weight/bone density/testosterone that it kinda doesn't make much sense anyway, If mtf competing in weightlifting is a problem because they have a biological advantage what about Height difference in professional basketball? Its not exactly "fair" that some people are 6 ft 8 and others are 5'11 and we already have fighting sports set in terms of Weight classes, maybe height classes for basketball? Testosterone and muscle mass level brackets for weight lifting? like the difference between men in mens only competitions can be massive as well.

Splitting stuff into just Male/female is already an inherently shit way to make things fair. We're just so used to it, changing will feel alien.

 

[Bosws87]

Annoying topic because its the bad type of complicated. The take you hold originally that seems really sensible starts folding under any real scrutiny. For example, my initial take pre reading about it, is essentially the south park skit, that mtf transgender athletes hold an almost insurmountable biological advantage that would make a mockery of women's competitions eventually. However there's so many issues that get highlighted with the current way we segregate sporting competitions if that's a concern. There are already massively advantages and disadvantages Genetically between members of the same sex in terms of height/weight/bone density/testosterone that it kinda doesn't make much sense anyway, If mtf competing in weightlifting is a problem because they have a biological advantage what about Height difference in professional basketball? Its not exactly "fair" that some people are 6 ft 8 and others are 5'11 and we already have fighting sports set in terms of Weight classes, maybe height classes for basketball? Testosterone and muscle mass level brackets for weight lifting? like the difference between men in mens only competitions can be massive as well.

Splitting stuff into just Male/female is already an inherently shit way to make things fair. We're just so used to it, changing will feel alien.

Doesn't work there's weight classes in contact sports like boxing its still insane to let a heavyweight women fight a heavyweight M2F.

 

[izzydiggler]

There's just no 'one size fits all' solution...you're screwing people regardless what you do, which makes the whole 'equality' argument nothing more than a pipe dream.

I'm all for trying to treat people with respect and dignity etc but I find it's easy to say (and be genuine with it) but the reality is a lot more complex...as such, I have no real idea what is the 'right' way.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

Doesn't work there's weight classes in contact sports like boxing its still insane to let a heavyweight women fight a heavyweight M2F.

I don't quite follow your sentence there?

 

[maniak]

How many transgender women will compete in the olympics this year?

 

[McGrathsipan]

How many transgender women will compete in the olympics this year?

None hopefully

 

[Ish]

Similar topics/discussion points to our very own Caster Semenya.

I’m not sure how I feel about the topic. I’m sympathetic towards their struggles and the discrimination they face (their bravery etc), but what about other female athletes who have spent their entire lives dedicated to their sport - if a transgender athlete has even the slightest advantage, I’m even more sympathetic towards the non-transgender athletes. But my feelings and opinion is not based on science. I’m not sure about the advantages and disadvantages.

Would it, in future, be possible to have a separate category for trans athletes to compete or would that be deemed discriminatory?

 

[Foxbatt]

Similar topics/discussion points to our very own Caster Semenya.

I’m not sure how I feel about the topic. I’m sympathetic towards their struggles and the discrimination they face (their bravery etc), but what about other female athletes who have spent their entire lives dedicated to their sport - if a transgender athlete has even the slightest advantage, I’m even more sympathetic towards the non-transgender athletes. But my feelings and opinion is not based on science. I’m not sure about the advantages and disadvantages.

Would it, in future, be possible to have a separate category for trans athletes to compete or would that be deemed discriminatory?

But Caster is not transgender. She was born a female and have female sex organs. The fact she may or may not have internal testes is irrelevant. That's how she was born naturally and is not man made. For others who have to compete with her, tough luck. Just like Phelps who has big feet like flippers or Bolt who is so tall.

 

[Alex99]

But Caster is not transgender. She was born a female and have female sex organs. The fact she may or may not have internal testes is irrelevant. That's how she was born naturally and is not man made. For others who have to compete with her, tough luck. Just like Phelps who has big feet like flippers or Bolt who is so tall.

It is relevant as she has XY chromosomes and the hormone production you'd expect to find from a male. Biologically, she is far closer to a male than a female. She may not be transgender, but her intersex condition has quite clearly played a massive part in the success she's enjoyed.

It's a difficult situation, but it's disingenuous to compare Semenya's natural advantages over her peers to those that the likes of Bolt and Phelps had.

 

[Ish]

But Caster is not transgender. She was born a female and have female sex organs. The fact she may or may not have internal testes is irrelevant. That's how she was born naturally and is not man made. For others who have to compete with her, tough luck. Just like Phelps who has big feet like flippers or Bolt who is so tall.

I never said the same, I said “similar” - as in the views/opinions and controversy etc. So yeah, the Caster debates are very similar whether you agree with it or not.

 

[Acheron]

I think it's unfair and there shouldn't be much debate around it to begin with as it's pretty clear they're in a physical advantage and defeats the whole purpose of having competitions for each gender. The solution isn't as straight forward as the 'fair' approach would be to make new categories exclusively for transgenders or force them to compete within the gender category they were born.

 

[Acheron]

hat's going to require a lot of time and may be impossible in some sports, but in others could be very close. Thinking (obviously) sports that are more about fine technique and less strength or stamina. Is there any physiological reasons a woman shouldn't beat a man at darts for example? Or shooting events?

Well you have chess for example where the imbalance between men and women still prevails. Some studies attribute part of this to some sort of psychological bias, for example they have matched up players of similar ELO and in similar conditions they should evenly matched but the moment they know who they're facing the men become more perseverant (compared if they were facing another man) and the women tend to perform worse against men. I think it also involves other psychological 'traits' like men being more competitive, aggressive, etc. So the imbalance goes beyond just physical traits.

 

[Bastian]

You can't give advantage because it fits with the zeitgeist. This is elite sport. I don't know if this is a fierce debate within the trans community, or just a topic to stoke the flames of transphobic people.

I think this is about as absurd a proposition as if the "gay community" (quite a silly blanket term describing something probably quite intangible) demanded that every Prem team had one gay footballer, a quota system.

 

[Tyrion]

Yeah that’s my thinking too. I still think it was incredibly negligent for whoever the company was that allowed Fallon Fox, trans athlete to compete in MMA against women. She lost one fight, granted, but she was obviously so much stronger than the other women.

I think a lot of people don’t really care or don't want to get into this mess so it's left to thoroughly discredited religious bigots to argue against overly demanding activists so they usually give in.

 

[Zarlak]

What a ridiculous take. What about the 'rights and dignity' of all of the athletes that have dedicated every moment of their whole lives to a sport? Again, I will go back to the concrete example of female weightlifting in the Olympics, the testing for a transgender M2F athlete allows them to have upwards of x4 times the amount of testosterone in their body that a female produces naturally. If any cis female athlete was tested before competition and found to have that much testosterone in their system, they would be banned from competing. I'd love to hear any 'sensible thinking folk' explain the fairness in that situation.

There are many men who compete with 4x the amount of testosterone of other men competing at the same level due to natural levels. Before I went on TRT I had the testosterone levels of an 80 year old man despite being 25 at the time. This somehow isn't an issue or ever given a second thought. We're all completely and utterly OK with hormone levels being wildly different among the same gender but it's all of a sudden an issue when it comes to trans people? The 'normal' range for testosterone in men is generally viewed (incorrectly in my opinion but that's another story) as between 400 and 1200 ng/dL. So you could have two 'normal' males competing against each other where one has 3x the levels of testosterone than the other. Ask yourself why you never gave a shit about that or considered it an unfair advantage that needs regulating? And then ask yourself why it's all of a sudden this massive thing that's totally unfair when it comes to trans people having a similar advantage that many CIS men already have over other CIS men but are freely allowed to compete.

 

[Conor]

There are many men who compete with 4x the amount of testosterone of other men competing at the same level due to natural levels. Before I went on TRT I had the testosterone levels of an 80 year old man despite being 25 at the time. This somehow isn't an issue or ever given a second thought. We're all completely and utterly OK with hormone levels being wildly different among the same gender but it's all of a sudden an issue when it comes to trans people? The 'normal' range for testosterone in men is generally viewed (incorrectly in my opinion but that's another story) as between 400 and 1200 ng/dL. So you could have two 'normal' males competing against each other where one has 3x the levels of testosterone than the other. Ask yourself why you never gave a shit about that or considered it an unfair advantage that needs regulating? And then ask yourself why it's all of a sudden this massive thing that's totally unfair when it comes to trans people having a similar advantage that many CIS men already have over other CIS men but are freely allowed to compete.

This is a bit of a straw man, you're comparing the testosterone levels of men in general in the world(literally nothing to do with the conversation we are having), we are talking about Olympic level athletes here. Please find me an example of 2 male Olympic weightlifters in the same weight class, where their test levels differ to that extent. Also, my specific point was related to testing levels in female Olympic lifters, not the average levels in the female population. Not sure how anyone can't see an issue with being allowed to have x4 the levels of the upper limit of cis females, and still compete against them. All of my points are talking about Olympic level lifting here.

 

[maniak]

This is a bit of a straw man, you're comparing the testosterone levels of men in general in the world(literally nothing to do with the conversation we are having), we are talking about Olympic level athletes here. Please find me an example of 2 male Olympic weightlifters in the same weight class, where their test levels differ to that extent. Also, my specific point was related to testing levels in female Olympic lifters, not the average levels in the female population. Not sure how anyone can't see an issue with being allowed to have x4 the levels of the upper limit of cis females, and still compete against them. All of my points are talking about Olympic level lifting here.

Do they test athletes for testosterone levels before the events?

 

[Conor]

Do they test athletes for testosterone levels before the events?

I don't know for certain, but I assume it would be part of the spectrum of tests? It's a PED.