Are English players overrated or is it Southgate ?

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
12,557
What kind of football did they play?

Defensive, exactly the same way we have to if we are to do well and they only won one game in 90 minutes against Wales.
I'm sorry but you must be very mistaken to think that teams play attacking football as international.

France played defensively in the world cup too with match winners.

Also, the comment I replied to was " but no team with central midfield options of Rice, Phillips, Henderson and a 17 year old Bellingham is winning a tournament."

No team with that option can win it? Its false then dont you think?
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
12,557
These are good players but apart from Kane, would you call the rest world-class? They are good but not great players. And even Kane is underperforming now.
Since when do you need 11 World Class players to win a tournament?

How many players from France, Germany, Italy are world class?

France probably have 2 world class players in Kante and Mbappe.
 

Raredaredevil

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 11, 2020
Messages
892
Since when do you need 11 World Class players to win a tournament?

How many players from France, Germany, Italy are world class?

France probably have 2 world class players in Kante and Mbappe.
What? Pogba, Griezmann, Benzema, Varane, Parvard, Lemar are better players than any of those England players you mentioned like Rice, Maguire, Henderson, Rashford, Sancho etc.

Half of Germany's starting 11 are basically Bayern Munich best players.

I don't know much about Italy's players but they definitely have a better manager, probably the best in this competition and a much more cohesive team than England.
 

wattsy7

Full Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2015
Messages
209
I'm sorry but you must be very mistaken to think that teams play attacking football as international.

France played defensively in the world cup too with match winners.

Also, the comment I replied to was " but no team with central midfield options of Rice, Phillips, Henderson and a 17 year old Bellingham is winning a tournament."

No team with that option can win it? Its false then dont you think?
What? No teams play attacking football at international level? Is that what you just said?

We’ll see at the end of the tournament if it’s false or not my friend, I hope I’m proved wrong, but I’m not going to be.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
12,557
What? Pogba, Griezmann, Benzema, Varane, Parvard, Lemar are better players than any of those England players you mentioned like Rice, Maguire, Henderson, Rashford, Sancho etc.

Half of Germany's starting 11 are basically Bayern Munich best players.

I don't know much about Italy's players but they definitely have a better manager, probably the best in this competition and a much more cohesive team than England.
What?

Pogba? what has he done for Manutd to classify him as World class?

Varane? What has he done in the last 2 years to classify him as world class?

Pavard? Really? I would take any of the 4 english CB before him.

Lemar? better than Rashford Sancho? What are you smoking mate?

Lemar this season has 2 goals 5 assists and he is better than Rashford? 21 goals 15 assists and is England's 4th choice, Sancho who is 7th choice had 16 goals 20 assists? and you telling me Lemar is world class compare to these guys? Seriously?

Germany line up for your information against Portugal

Neuer - Bayern (1)
Ginter - Gladbach
Hummels - Dortmund
Rudiger - Chelsea
Kimmich - Bayern (2)
Gundogan - City
Kroos - Madrid
Gosesns - Atalanta
Muller - Bayern (3)
Havertz - Chelsea
Gnabry - Bayern (4)

4 players from Bayern mate, you have no idea do you?
 

Raredaredevil

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 11, 2020
Messages
892
What?

Pogba? what has he done for Manutd to classify him as World class?

Varane? What has he done in the last 2 years to classify him as world class?

Pavard? Really? I would take any of the 4 english CB before him.

Lemar? better than Rashford Sancho? What are you smoking mate?

Lemar this season has 2 goals 5 assists and he is better than Rashford? 21 goals 15 assists and is England's 4th choice, Sancho who is 7th choice had 16 goals 20 assists? and you telling me Lemar is world class compare to these guys? Seriously?

Germany line up for your information against Portugal

Neuer - Bayern (1)
Ginter - Gladbach
Hummels - Dortmund
Rudiger - Chelsea
Kimmich - Bayern (2)
Gundogan - City
Kroos - Madrid
Gosesns - Atalanta
Muller - Bayern (3)
Havertz - Chelsea
Gnabry - Bayern (4)

4 players from Bayern mate, you have no idea do you?
It's people like you that overrate the English players so they end up with the whole English tax and always underperform.
What?

Pogba? what has he done for Manutd to classify him as World class?

Varane? What has he done in the last 2 years to classify him as world class?

Pavard? Really? I would take any of the 4 english CB before him.

Lemar? better than Rashford Sancho? What are you smoking mate?

Lemar this season has 2 goals 5 assists and he is better than Rashford? 21 goals 15 assists and is England's 4th choice, Sancho who is 7th choice had 16 goals 20 assists? and you telling me Lemar is world class compare to these guys? Seriously?

Germany line up for your information against Portugal

Neuer - Bayern (1)
Ginter - Gladbach
Hummels - Dortmund
Rudiger - Chelsea
Kimmich - Bayern (2)
Gundogan - City
Kroos - Madrid
Gosesns - Atalanta
Muller - Bayern (3)
Havertz - Chelsea
Gnabry - Bayern (4)

4 players from Bayern mate, you have no idea do you?
It's people like you who overrate English players so they always end up underperforming and come with the whole bullshit English tax. You can post all the stats you want but Pogba, Griezmann, Varane, Lemar have all performed on a much higher level for their national team than those players you mentioned. If you follow our match day threads closely, you can see many of us are disappointed with Rashford's finishing and his goals output doesn't reflect his quality as a great player.

4 players from Bayern is almost half of the starting 11. Should I also include their bench players like Sule who came on? That is half. Pendanticness at it's finest.
 

Bebestation

Im a doctor btw, my IQ destroys yours
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
11,862
English players are consistently being bought these days from so many different leagues.
 

Jibbs

New Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2013
Messages
2,238
Southgate is bang average, but it is ironic coming from United fans who are not only supporting mediocrity for almost three years now but some even want to extend. Ole got the job just like Southgate too. Through nepotism and connections.
 

11101

Full Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
21,312
Would you still want to play this way against likely to be Germany or Portugal in the next game?

Southgate is definitely keeping 2 more defensively minded midfielders if we face them.
Probably not, but we don't know. We have only ever played two defensive mids so we don't know what we are like with one. The time to find that out would have been the group stage, or even better the qualifiers or friendlies beforehand. But we didn't so we don't know and will have to line up this way even if we are awful doing it.
 

Bebestation

Im a doctor btw, my IQ destroys yours
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
11,862
Southgate is bang average, but it is ironic coming from United fans who are not only supporting mediocrity for almost three years now but some even want to extend. Ole got the job just like Southgate too. Through nepotism and connections.
How is Southgate the same as a manager that made United the 2nd best in the Premiere League last season?
 

OmarUnited4ever

Full Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2021
Messages
3,440
I think England's main weakness is in central midfield area in terms of options and quality.

Rice, Phillips, Henderson and Billingham are just ok to good as options for the CM positions and they don't offer much except for defensive solidity, in the past 3 games the midfielders didn't do much in terms of offensive output and penetrative/line breaking passing at all.

So the team isn't overrated as I think there are quality players in attack and defense but the midfield is lacking.

In terms of Southgate he is too conservative and pragmatic, the full backs don't bomb forward that much, only Shaw went forward occasionally while Walker and James stayed back, he selects Phillips and Rice together which is too defensive but understandable against top opposition like Croatia but unnecessary against Scotland or Czech Republic.
 

Bebestation

Im a doctor btw, my IQ destroys yours
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
11,862
For me the problem is Harry Kane.

He is a great player but he has always seemed to be a bit different in style to the rest of the England team.

Out of the Sancho’s Rashford’s, Sterlings, Greenwood’s, Saka’s Fodens and Grealishs - Kane seems a bit of a difference to those players.
 

InspiRED

Full Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
1,607
Supports
Outraged snowflakes
To be honest Henderson was just non entity and Liverpool were ready to sell him before Klopp arrived. That Liverpool midfield consisting fabinho wijnaldum Henderson just worked hard alongside their forward line with two fullbacks.With kane england will not able to defend from the front.

Any one say grealish had better game than mount just didn't see previous two matches. Apart from deflected assist grealish was not even best creator for england in this match.Maguire and Shaw did more than grealish in creative department says it all. Nothing suggests he will deserve to play more than mount.
I'll never get this from football fans. Why does Grealish have to be shite so that Mount can be good? They are both high quality attacking options we are lucky to have both. Different types of player and I'd personally like to see both of them playing. If you can't see what Grealish offers I can't really help you. He creates so much space for his teammates.
 

alexthelion

Full Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2019
Messages
3,624
How anyone thought we would have a chance of winning it with these players absolutely baffled me before the tournament, Southgate is doing a fantastic job so far.
T'other way round, it's Southgate that's the problem and, unfortunately, it's a big one.
 

alexthelion

Full Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2019
Messages
3,624
Southgate is bang average, but it is ironic coming from United fans who are not only supporting mediocrity for almost three years now but some even want to extend. Ole got the job just like Southgate too. Through nepotism and connections.
What a stupid post, there's no way in Hell Southgate would have got second place with United. Are you forgetting his time at Middlesbrough?
 

Ayush_reddevil

Éire Abú
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
10,777
Southgate also took England to a world cup semifinal which was a pretty big achievement. Southgate ole comparisons will derail the thread but there is truth to them being very comparable . Results wise both have done ok but if you look beyond the results you can always feel that a top manager could get more out of the team.
 

Jibbs

New Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2013
Messages
2,238
What a stupid post, there's no way in Hell Southgate would have got second place with United. Are you forgetting his time at Middlesbrough?
What makes you think Ole is better than Southgate? Ole himself got relegated with Cardiff.
 

The Purley King

Full Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
4,268
Hoddle did very well as England manager. Probably the last time England looked like the sum of its parts or better.
We played some good stuff under hoddle. We also had some excellent players but it looked like he was building something good…….. and then he went off the deep end
 

shahzy

Full Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Messages
985
Since when do you need 11 World Class players to win a tournament?

How many players from France, Germany, Italy are world class?

France probably have 2 world class players in Kante and Mbappe.
If you truly believe France have only 2 'world class' players. Then everyone else must have 0 in their team. Your definition is way off
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
12,557
It's people like you that overrate the English players so they end up with the whole English tax and always underperform.


It's people like you who overrate English players so they always end up underperforming and come with the whole bullshit English tax. You can post all the stats you want but Pogba, Griezmann, Varane, Lemar have all performed on a much higher level for their national team than those players you mentioned. If you follow our match day threads closely, you can see many of us are disappointed with Rashford's finishing and his goals output doesn't reflect his quality as a great player.

4 players from Bayern is almost half of the starting 11. Should I also include their bench players like Sule who came on? That is half. Pendanticness at it's finest.
People like me overrate English players, or people like you who always want to be negative?

Can you tell me the last time Lemar done anything for France? have you even watched him play for France? He doesn't even get on the pitch.

Also, so what if Germany have 5 Bayern players, does that make them a better team because they play for Bayern?

Re Rashford, we as United fans are critical because we watch 90 mins of every game, you do not do that with other teams so you cannot judge players. Not comparing him to Mbappe but go and have a look at how many chances he has missed this Euros, no player has more than 20% goal conversion.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
12,557
Mbappe, Benzema, Kante and Griezmann are all world class.
So its not the whole squad like the poster was suggesting.

Griezman was world class, he has not been the same player for a couple of seasons now.

Agree with the other 3 though.
 

TheGame

Full Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2002
Messages
19,250
Location
In the Land of Saints and Sinners
Southgate is bang average, but it is ironic coming from United fans who are not only supporting mediocrity for almost three years now but some even want to extend. Ole got the job just like Southgate too. Through nepotism and connections.
Oh feck off with this BS. Some people would do anything to get their jibes at Ole. Totally different managers in different situations. Southgate has the pick of English talent at his disposal for 6 games in a tournament.
 

TheGame

Full Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2002
Messages
19,250
Location
In the Land of Saints and Sinners
Sancho and Bellingham, two of England's players who have been in great form over the season don't even get a look in. That's the manager being the problem right there. There's an argument Sancho would walk into most European teams. I mean France would probably take him over Coman.
 

golden_blunder

Site admin. Manchester United fan
Staff
Joined
Jun 1, 2000
Messages
120,013
Location
Dublin, Ireland
For me the problem is Harry Kane.

He is a great player but he has always seemed to be a bit different in style to the rest of the England team.

Out of the Sancho’s Rashford’s, Sterlings, Greenwood’s, Saka’s Fodens and Grealishs - Kane seems a bit of a difference to those players.
Not sure what’s going on with Kane, has he peaked, distracted by club matters or simply injured? Doesn’t look the same player to me.
 

golden_blunder

Site admin. Manchester United fan
Staff
Joined
Jun 1, 2000
Messages
120,013
Location
Dublin, Ireland
Back to the question, England have great attacking options at their disposal and not so good ones in defence. But he plays conservatively to protect the defence, hence sacrificing some of England’s best attackers.
Southgate for me is the issue. Watch him win the bloody thing now I’ve said that
 

Bwuk

Full Member
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
17,342
Back to the question, England have great attacking options at their disposal and not so good ones in defence. But he plays conservatively to protect the defence, hence sacrificing some of England’s best attackers.
Southgate for me is the issue. Watch him win the bloody thing now I’ve said that
I agree. England have a favourable draw to the final, although they had that at the world cup too.

I don't understand the logic behind it. If you have a bad defence why play more of them?
 

Raredaredevil

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 11, 2020
Messages
892
People like me overrate English players, or people like you who always want to be negative?

Can you tell me the last time Lemar done anything for France? have you even watched him play for France? He doesn't even get on the pitch.

Also, so what if Germany have 5 Bayern players, does that make them a better team because they play for Bayern?

Re Rashford, we as United fans are critical because we watch 90 mins of every game, you do not do that with other teams so you cannot judge players. Not comparing him to Mbappe but go and have a look at how many chances he has missed this Euros, no player has more than 20% goal conversion.
There is no part of my post which is negative. Don't try to twist my words. I'm just refuting your point that England has world-class players which they clearly don't. Players like Rashford, Rice, Sancho, Maguire etc are not world-class. You are overrating them and typically like the English media. You are extremely deluded if you think England has world-class players and better players than Germany or France.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
12,557
There is no part of my post which is negative. Don't try to twist my words. I'm just refuting your point that England has world-class players which they clearly don't. Players like Rashford, Rice, Sancho, Maguire etc are not world-class. You are overrating them and typically like the English media. You are extremely deluded if you think England has world-class players and better players than Germany or France.
That's a bit hypocritical coming from you about twisting words, can you show me where I said England has world class players? If you cannot find it, stop twisting my words.

Again, I said they are good players not world class, read what I write before making stuff up.

England Definitely has better players than Germany.

For ease, let me show you a comparison of players who play in Germany because it seems you are struggling to see what players do what.

Sancho in BDL - 16 goals 20 assists
Gnabry - 11 goals 7 assists
Sane - 10 goals 11 assists

I think it is clear which player is better, unless you want to use a different metric maybe like... because they play for Bayern they are world class?
 

MUFC OK

New Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
7,216
Of course they are overrated. Look at Saka's performance the other night and the subsequent praise, you'd think he had just dropped a Rooney v Croatia display from the talk in the media. Apparently a few good carries and no end product is enough to make you "undroppable". Don't get me started on "Mase" Mount.
 

FatTails

New Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2021
Messages
1,859
How is Southgate the same as a manager that made United the 2nd best in the Premiere League last season?
The second most expensive squad in the league with the second highest wage bill overachieving and finishing second. Incredible stuff :eek:
 

Abraxas

Full Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2021
Messages
6,062
The problem for England v Germany may be nothing to do with comparing individual players, especially attackers, that's the real issue. Two different levels of experience in the management and in crucial areas of the pitch.

As much as Germany look a world away from the glory days, they've got a performance in them as we saw against Portugal and a lesser extent France. They have players in the middle of the park with know how, experience, technique - quality footballers. Whereas we really lack in that department. We have a couple of guys in Rice and Phillips who are just making their way at lesser clubs and haven't stepped up to the top levels yet.

Germany may control things, get the ball to their attackers in better situations and completely neutralise ours this way. Then you look at the two defences and there's mistakes in both, it may be more about who gets good positions and takes chances, but I'd rather have the know how in the middle of the park to control things. It doesn't matter that Kane is better than Germany's non-strikers or how dynamic or exciting Grealish or Saka might be if we're as individualistic as we look at the moment going forward or if we don't get a grip of the game.
 

MUFC OK

New Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
7,216
The problem for England v Germany may be nothing to do with comparing individual players, especially attackers, that's the real issue. Two different levels of experience in the management and in crucial areas of the pitch.

As much as Germany look a world away from the glory days, they've got a performance in them as we saw against Portugal and a lesser extent France. They have players in the middle of the park with know how, experience, technique - quality footballers. Whereas we really lack in that department. We have a couple of guys in Rice and Phillips who are just making their way at lesser clubs and haven't stepped up to the top levels yet.

Germany may control things, get the ball to their attackers in better situations and completely neutralise ours this way. Then you look at the two defences and there's mistakes in both, it may be more about who gets good positions and takes chances, but I'd rather have the know how in the middle of the park to control things.
Germany can and will raise their game to a new level against England. History tells us that we will probably go missing and go out with a whimper - this is what I fully expect to happen. The gulf in class is not huge but in terms of mentality they are miles ahead.