Water carrier.
Fred is a better player. My two cents.
Fred is a better player. My two cents.
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Declan Rice
- Thread starter roonster09
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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You’ve gotta be off your nut not to see that Phillips is clearly superior on the ball. I mean, even Southgate told them to swap positions half way through that second half so they could get Phillips deep who a) actually wants the ball and b) can play a progressive pass.
“Literally nothing he does better”
For 30 mill I'd say let's give it a try. Nothing I've seen from him would suggest he anything more than that.
Hate to say it but I agree. You notice the quality on the ball immediately when he's subbed on
I think Philips was actually worse than Rice last night, caught on the ball couple of times and could have been punished. Rice on the other hand is obviously not suited for a team that sits deep like the Danes did last night especially alongside a similar player. On the other hand Hojbjerg and Delaney are hardly conference player like some wish to paint them in this thread and many of the English players looked dominated and inferior in duels and for prolonged periods of time.
Exactly
I'd argue he's even worse off the ball when we're in possession. That half position he takes up between Shaw and Maguire is fecking infuriating. He's hiding away from getting the ball in the middle of the pitch.
Not suited for us then. At all.
Rice is just an option if you want to park the bus desperately. He is good in disrupting attacks but nothing more. Too little for a TOP team but usable as a sub.
I think, far more important than how bad he is at playing the ball forward, the worry yesterday is that what he's supposed to excel at he was absolutely dire at with Denmark running through England's central core and straight at the backline at will until they gassed.
If he's a terrier, one-man wall of defence, then perhaps the lack of ambition in his passes or his need for multiple touches to control simple balls could be forgiven, but if he's a defensive sieve when really needed, then there's no reason to look in his direction.
If he's a terrier, one-man wall of defence, then perhaps the lack of ambition in his passes or his need for multiple touches to control simple balls could be forgiven, but if he's a defensive sieve when really needed, then there's no reason to look in his direction.
I second this. his leadership quality and progressive passing are extremely underrated as to what they offer Pool
this place lurches in extremes. Yesterday the weight of the occasion got to a number of the English players. Id blame that rather than being out right poor for a number of the below par performances. The only thing we learned yesterday though is Rice solves nothing for us. He wont help us breakdown a low block and I severely doubt he'd make a partnership as flawed as Lindeloff - Maguire any safer without help
I disagree, alongside Pogba and Bruno, I think it could work nicely.
Two players with poor to inconsistent short passing game and a third who is very mediocre on the ball. Great combination.
Tbh I've never ever rated Henderson (partly of my bias as an United fan) but the fact he's miles better than Rice say it all. 100m my arse.
Midfield was the part of the pitch where I thought we were better.
Also on paper really. Between Rice and Phillips vs Delaney and Højbjerg, I'd choose the latter two.
This place has had me thinking I'd lost my mind at times with the views on this guy! £70-80m should get you a DM a couple levels above Rice. Those who think Fred isn't good enough at transitioning the ball through midfield would be in for a rude awakening if we bought Rice.
The problem with the forum is every midfielder has to be a Carrick level passer or Busquets without acknowledging that those two in their primes were some of the best footballers in the world in the midfield. Your not going to come across those levels of talent at the ratio of assessing your average number of midfielders.
Rice is tactically the most important midfielder for England. He screens the defence very effectively positionally, if you want a good example of what the team would look like without him, picture United and Maguire getting exposed rinse and repeat in 1v1s, skinned if the opposition drag Harry to the channels and use pace against him which has happened almost on a game by game basis throughout the early / mid season last year. If you take the amount of times this lead to goals / chances created in context, United would have pushed city far closer for a title race if the midfield did their job more accordingly when out of possession.
Rice isn't great in possession, but I'd prefer him over Fred due to his defensive discipline. Fred constantly loses possession which will always expose United because Solskjaer isn't a manager that teaches his teams ball retention effectively. The issue with Rice is not too far from Pogba, he'll need the right players around him in order to balance the midfield.
I'm always shocked to see how highly regarded Fred is, he's easily the most replaceable player in the squad along with Lindlelof if the team is required to go up a level.
Rice is tactically the most important midfielder for England. He screens the defence very effectively positionally, if you want a good example of what the team would look like without him, picture United and Maguire getting exposed rinse and repeat in 1v1s, skinned if the opposition drag Harry to the channels and use pace against him which has happened almost on a game by game basis throughout the early / mid season last year. If you take the amount of times this lead to goals / chances created in context, United would have pushed city far closer for a title race if the midfield did their job more accordingly when out of possession.
Rice isn't great in possession, but I'd prefer him over Fred due to his defensive discipline. Fred constantly loses possession which will always expose United because Solskjaer isn't a manager that teaches his teams ball retention effectively. The issue with Rice is not too far from Pogba, he'll need the right players around him in order to balance the midfield.
I'm always shocked to see how highly regarded Fred is, he's easily the most replaceable player in the squad along with Lindlelof if the team is required to go up a level.
I'm likewise.
Henderson is definitely better than RIce and Phillips. However, I would say all three are underwhelming (United bias probably).
The problem is his talent isn't worth 70-90 million that west ham want. He's really worth 30-50 if he wasn't English; for a midfielder he's not a deep lying playmaker, he doesn't really create for his team, he doesn't really pick out a perfect pass, and he doesn't really bag ton's of goals. Do I think he's talented at what he does? Yes, but not for the quoted price we would be idiots for paying that much for him. We wonder why teams try to pull ridiculous amounts for transfers on us, but at the same time act like the team should just pay whatever is asked. I honestly doubt any team goes for him, for the price being quoted. 70-90 million is a generational talent that can change the team for the next 5-10 years, I'd rather drop that on Groetzka at least he's shown more and he won't even be quoted for that much.
There is serious underrating of the danish team imo, but i'd still take Rice and Phillips personally.
Inconsistent short passing? You talking about Bruno and Pogba? I disagree. And mediocre on the ball? Yes he is no Busquets, but Rice is pretty solid on the ball, and improvement on what we have playing there at the moment.
feck me, so Harry's a liability that looks good now because of a limited midfielder, one who was utter shite at screening last night and yet Harry was still top.
Your memories of our last season are so far off it's insane.
I don't think Rice is a long term starter for England, but Skipp is too young at the moment and has only just had a break out season in the Championship. But I'd be very surprised if Skipp wasn't England's starting DM in the next year or two.
We know what he does. Stop telling us. He's not worth the price we would have to pay!
That wasn’t an untypical performance from Rice, last night.
He can play better, but nothing that sets the world on fire.
I posted a few months ago, that one of my mates and his son are WHU season ticket holders and that my wife’s brother and his son ( my nephew) are dyed-in-the-wool WH fans.
My mate and his son and my BiL and nephew don’t know each other, but they all agree that although they like Declan Rice, they don’t rate him as anything more than a good homegrown West Ham lad and a good team player, but not consistent enough.
They rate Thomas Soucek much higher and put WH’s midfield improvement down to his arrival.
My nephew thinks it’s hilarious that Utd fans are drooling over Rice and that he’s being rated to be sold for stupid money.
I’ve been with my mate to a couple of home matches at the London Stadium and on both occasions the opposition just brushed past him a few times. He was tidy at sweeping up at the back of MF, but when under no pressure.
Hopefully the blinkers are now off and more people can see how limited this lad really is.
There’s no way Utd should be considering him, even as a squad player.
He can play better, but nothing that sets the world on fire.
I posted a few months ago, that one of my mates and his son are WHU season ticket holders and that my wife’s brother and his son ( my nephew) are dyed-in-the-wool WH fans.
My mate and his son and my BiL and nephew don’t know each other, but they all agree that although they like Declan Rice, they don’t rate him as anything more than a good homegrown West Ham lad and a good team player, but not consistent enough.
They rate Thomas Soucek much higher and put WH’s midfield improvement down to his arrival.
My nephew thinks it’s hilarious that Utd fans are drooling over Rice and that he’s being rated to be sold for stupid money.
I’ve been with my mate to a couple of home matches at the London Stadium and on both occasions the opposition just brushed past him a few times. He was tidy at sweeping up at the back of MF, but when under no pressure.
Hopefully the blinkers are now off and more people can see how limited this lad really is.
There’s no way Utd should be considering him, even as a squad player.
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Fortunately I don't see us spending big to bring rice in, I am still not sure why Phillips is getting game time, other than that first game he doesn't look great, Southgate needs to swap out Phillips for Henderson.
I am also unconvinced what Mount brings to the team, I would replace him with Grealish who definitely offers more.
Saka was also pretty underwhelming for me, at almost every stage I felt like we would have been better starting Sancho and then bringing Saka on once the game got tired. Against the italians I think Saka might struggle and I really like him when he is used correctly.
I am also unconvinced what Mount brings to the team, I would replace him with Grealish who definitely offers more.
Saka was also pretty underwhelming for me, at almost every stage I felt like we would have been better starting Sancho and then bringing Saka on once the game got tired. Against the italians I think Saka might struggle and I really like him when he is used correctly.
I wouldn’t even bother replying. Delusional statement if so ever saw one.
I was wondering at points why the hell declan rice was trapped with the ball far up the wing. I would even say I was impressed he managed to hold up the ball so far up and pass it back safely which he loves doing.You’ve gotta be off your nut not to see that Phillips is clearly superior on the ball. I mean, even Southgate told them to swap positions half way through that second half so they could get Phillips deep who a) actually wants the ball and b) can play a progressive pass.
“Literally nothing he does better”
Carrick's best season for Man Utd came when he was partnering Tom Cleverley in centre midfield. Its baffling to me that you can watch what Busquets did against Italy, see how much him being subbed affected Spain, and still talk about Rice in the same bracket as these players.
If Man Utd have any ambition to get back to the top of English football, players like Carrick and Busquets are the benchmark not players like Rice.
He's a good player. Nothing more. Certainly not a player we should be paying scores of millions for.
Exactly this and to some extent I don't blame Rice for that. Many people seriously underrate Denmark, who have excellent transitions from back to front, they're not that easy to defend against. However, when people are talking about dropping upwards of £50m on the English Schneiderlin that gives me pause for thought.
My suspicion is people see in Rice what they want to see because they want to believe he will 'unlock' Pogba, or something to that affect. So when Rice blocks a passing lane, or chases back after someone and wins a 50/50, they see a player who will cover for Pogba and let us play 4-3-3 with Pogba and Bruno in the middle. That causes them to block out all the times he gets sucked towards the ball or is left standing by a bit of quick thinking/passing.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, we need someone to get the ball into Bruno and the other forwards from deep in midfield, and Rice is certainly, 100%, not that player.
Whether it's £30m or £80m, he is still not that guy.
Whether it's £30m or £80m, he is still not that guy.
Just don't see it with him. I am sure I am probably wrong but just looks like a solid DM. Could that help us bridge the gap? Perhaps but I think we need something or someone with more X-Factor.
It would he interesting to see how many people still want Rice if or when Pogba leaves
Good point
Such a dull player. Passes five yards back and sideways and does nothing else. Such a difference to the likes of Busquets who has so much technical ability to control a game in the same position they both play. Rice can’t do that for the money West Ham wants
If we want someone like Rice, Harry Winks is probably available for a third of the price
If we want someone like Rice, Harry Winks is probably available for a third of the price
Was just about to say this as well, I am astounded at the prices quoted for him. Maguire is better at dribbling and passing forwards than he is.
You can see Denmark just backing off him all the time because they know he couldn't hurt them.
Central midfield is a real weakness in the England team, quite funny we have had a period where we were spoilt for choice in that position (Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes, Carrick, Hargreaves), and now it seems we have too many options in the wing forward department.
How many people actually want him with Pogba still here?
He's supposed to be, but Denmark ran right past him a number of times last night. If he can't stop them what use is he for us.
We need a player who can position themselves well, tackle, play at a high tempo, and move the ball forward. Rice ticks one, maybe two, of those boxes. We already have Fred who can do at least three of them.
Good point. My suspicion is, if Pogba does leave this summer or next, the clamour for Rice will vanish pretty quickly.
Bet you he isnt...
Like I said, not fit to lace Fred's boots.
Some players look good in teams that sit back and contain space like West Ham, but when you try and play a more expansive style his weaknesses show.
He's lucky Henderson isn't fit or Bellingham isn't another year older, he'd be nowhere in this side.
100%
Rice has shown to be a good ball winner in contained spaces due to being a big lad who's got the knack of nicking the ball away. As soon as the pitch is open though he just looks plain average.
Anybody thinking he'd walk into our team and look better than Fred or Mctominay are in for a big surprise, he'd be the flop of the century at that price!. Look how much stick Pogba gets for being £89m, imagine Rice for anything over £60m
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