Southgate doesn’t get the credit he deserves

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

As a United fan my country are in first major final in my lifetime and our new £80m signing is effectively having summer off.

How awful



I think we see that attitude elsewhere too. Such as those who look at Fergie’s final years when we won the European Cup, reached 3 finals and had our most successful period in our history domestically is still looked upon unfavourably by so many fans as the “no value in the market” period where nothing else counts except that some clubs outspent us

agree. Not limited to English football, or United. It’s just the attitude of far too many people these days.

it is absolute entitlement.

the point I should have made to @Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber is that this is a wider problem. It’s not an English football supporter problem.

Everyone I know, friends family, neighbours, randoms in the street are buzzing.

no expectation, but excitement about what might just happen on Sunday.

 

[justsomebloke]

Proving my exact point. Y'all never learn. As England you have NOT earned the right to win things via swash buckling football. You must first learnt to win. Before even thinking of learning to win spectacularly. This is not club football were players are together so long they can turn into a unit capable of consistently great flowing football.

It matters not how talented your current group of players may be. It's not the first time England have had a crop the envy of many. There is a major reason you could not reach deep into international tournaments until now even with deep talent before.


You finally have a manager playing proper tournament football taking things game by game. Setting up England with a game plan and a balanced 11, rather than an 11 cramming in all the best talents in the main 11 without thought to balance. What's even funnier is the talk of "not playing to attacking players strength". Yet he sets up the team so that the front 4 can do nothing but attack. It's even got you to a final. But supposedly it's not enough.

This. The history of international tournament football is littered with teams full of top talent that failed miserably. You'd think people would at least remember Argentina and Germany in 2018.

 

[fergieisold]

How was his time at Middlesbrough judged? I had a quick read and it seemed like he did alright but couldn't strengthen his squad before being relegated. He was then sacked when he was 2 points off the top of the Championship?

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

One of the issues I find with this whole X Y or Z should be playing argument is that these are the 26 best England players and so all of them are obviously good players. When you talk about a Sancho you have to also look at the fact Foden, Grealish, Bellingham, Chilwell and James etc all great seasons but in the end he has to pick 11 that can play in one system. Players seem to have brought into this idea but some people weirdly are still struggling

 

[DomesticTadpole]

One of the issues I find with this whole X Y or Z should be playing argument is that these are the 26 best England players and so all of them are obviously good players. When you talk about a Sancho you have to also look at the fact Foden, Grealish, Bellingham, Chilwell and James etc all great seasons but in the end he has to pick 11 that can play in one system. Players seem to have brought into this idea but some people weirdly are still struggling

Isn't this the problem we had in the past, managers trying to squeeze every big name player into a team and system that simply did not get the best out of them. Maybe Gerrard or Lampard shouldn't have played. Nobody had the guts to make that decision, because fans were convinced they could play together, when maybe , just maybe they couldn't.

Some managers in the recent past were far too happy to listen to fans instead of trusting their own judgement. Gareth seems to be going his own way and not letting outside forces influence him.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

One of the issues I find with this whole X Y or Z should be playing argument is that these are the 26 best England players and so all of them are obviously good players. When you talk about a Sancho you have to also look at the fact Foden, Grealish, Bellingham, Chilwell and James etc all great seasons but in the end he has to pick 11 that can play in one system. Players seem to have brought into this idea but some people weirdly are still struggling

Exactly. It isn't club football where you need to consistently pick your best players. In international football you pick the best system and 11 for the task at hand, which is get to the next round. The deeper you talent pool in the squad the easier it is. The players even get it. That's why like Grealish didn't care he was subbed for Trippier yet he had been a sub. For It achieved the objective. The battle was won.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Isn't this the problem we had in the past, managers trying to squeeze every big name player into a team and system that simply did not get the best out of them. Maybe Gerrard or Lampard shouldn't have played. Nobody had the guts to make that decision, because fans were convinced they could play together, when maybe , just maybe they couldn't.

Some managers in the recent past were far too happy to listen to fans instead of trusting their own judgement. Gareth seems to be going his own way and not letting outside forces influence him.

Exactly. Which is why he is succeeding and could even possibly bag a title ahead of schedule for this generation of players.

 

[nickm]

This team isn't winning because of Southgate. they are winning because they have a load of depth. But I can guarantee you that if a Pep or Klopp were leading this team, England would be doing it a lot better. This team is loaded with talent. There is no way either of those managers would be playing the same 4-2-3-1 that Gareth is. England may still win the tournament, but they could have made it a lot easier on them self than it has been

Armchair generals eh, betrays a total misunderstanding of tournament football and limitations around the team that club managers don’t have. Yeah we have a good squad and that is important but they have been coached, prepared and managed well.

 

[nickm]

agree. Not limited to English football, or United. It’s just the attitude of far too many people these days.

it is absolute entitlement.

the point I should have made to @Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber is that this is a wider problem. It’s not an English football supporter problem.

Everyone I know, friends family, neighbours, randoms in the street are buzzing.

no expectation, but excitement about what might just happen on Sunday.

Got to be realistic, it’s Italy and they are good at this. But we’ve made a final, and we’ve given ourselves a good chance, which is all you can ask for. If we lose, we lose but… well, fingers crossed. We are a good team but it’s going to be a tight, tense game (as finals usually are).

 

[Tony Palumbo]

To me he does seem starstruck about it all.

He can’t believe he’s managed to get this far himself. he has the look of the kid who got a surprise trip to Disneyland.

 

[Mickeza]

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Everyone’s favourite hipster cnut journalist has spoken. It’s been Pep all along with special mentions to Pochetino for making Shaw world class.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Such bollocks.

so essentially it’s this:

1. if England lose - it’s Southgate’s fault
2. If England play poorly - it’s Southgate’s fault
3. If England win, it is despite Southgate
4. If England play well, it’s strength in depth, with this bunch of players we should be winning, playing irresistible attacking football in every match. We don’t even need a manager

It actually doesn’t matter what Southgate does, he won’t get credit - unless he plays Grealish, Sancho, Bellingham, Kane and Foden at the same time (purposely dropped Sterling as we know these armchair fans wouldn’t have played him) and we win 4-0.

you ‘guarantee Pep or Klopp would be doing a lot better’.

listen to yourself.

thankfully anyone who is rational is enjoying England’s run, loving the player and the managers attitude and looking forward to the final.

if only Fergie was managing this team - just imagine who super duper brilliant they would have been.

So in your mind if you get the win that means you did everything right. Got it

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

So in your mind if you get the win that means you did everything right. Got it

hahahaha!

yes!

no you are right, I’d swap us winning anyway possible - for having a different manager, who may or may not win. And May or may not score a few more goals.

bloody ridiculous post pal.

 

[noodlehair]

He gets way too much credit. He's just found himself in the right place at the right time. I think his game management has been really poor and his strengths are all based around keeping the players on the same page...but that might be as much down to the fact we actually have a set of players who aren't all driven by their egos.

He is however extremely lucky...he's gotten to a semi final and a final by, with the possible exception of Germany, beating a bunch of teams you'd expect any competent manager to beat when managing England. Granted you can name a few England managers who have failed to do even that, but actually only a few. Well, just Hodgson and McClaren really.

Capello, Sven, etc. all got us to tournaments and generally went out to the likes of Brazil, Germany, Portugal etc. when they were actually very good teams. They'd all have had England in the semis of the world cup and probably in the final of this tournament if all they had to do was not lose to teams like Sweden and an exhausted Denmark...and I reckon possibly even with a better chance of winning it because they wouldn't start fecking Saka as part of a three man attack, play 8 defenders, and then leave a collection of the best young forward players in the world sitting on the bench. Or let a game drift into extra time and risk losing it before making very obvious changes.

I wouldn't be surprised if England got soundly beaten tomorrow, although I hope they don't and the home ground factor should help them...but even if they do Southgate will get a load of credit, which is weird really because he's been handed more luck and benefical circumstances than the next 50 England managers will get combined. When is the next time England will be able to get to the final of a major tournament where their toughest opponent is Scotland, during a pandemic that has disrupted every other team, where every other team has had to fly around the planet between games while England haven't, and where all except one of England's games have been in their home stadium which the away team's fans are basically banned from getting to? If we're being honest if Southgate can't win a tournament in those circumstances with an actually pretty good set of players, he is never going to win one.

 

[justsomebloke]

He gets way too much credit. He's just found himself in the right place at the right time. I think his game management has been really poor and his strengths are all based around keeping the players on the same page...but that might be as much down to the fact we actually have a set of players who aren't all driven by their egos.

He is however extremely lucky...he's gotten to a semi final and a final by, with the possible exception of Germany, beating a bunch of teams you'd expect any competent manager to beat when managing England. Granted you can name a few England managers who have failed to do even that, but actually only a few. Well, just Hodgson and McClaren really.

Capello, Sven, etc. all got us to tournaments and generally went out to the likes of Brazil, Germany, Portugal etc. when they were actually very good teams. They'd all have had England in the semis of the world cup and probably in the final of this tournament if all they had to do was not lose to teams like Sweden and an exhausted Denmark...and I reckon possibly even with a better chance of winning it because they wouldn't start fecking Saka as part of a three man attack, play 8 defenders, and then leave a collection of the best young forward players in the world sitting on the bench. Or let a game drift into extra time and risk losing it before making very obvious changes.

I wouldn't be surprised if England got soundly beaten tomorrow, although I hope they don't and the home ground factor should help them...but even if they do Southgate will get a load of credit, which is weird really because he's been handed more luck and benefical circumstances than the next 50 England managers will get combined. When is the next time England will be able to get to the final of a major tournament where their toughest opponent is Scotland, during a pandemic that has disrupted every other team, where every other team has had to fly around the planet between games while England haven't, and where all except one of England's games have been in their home stadium which the away team's fans are basically banned from getting to? If we're being honest if Southgate can't win a tournament in those circumstances with an actually pretty good set of players, he is never going to win one.

Scotland isn't England's toughest opponent in this tournament. They're, by some margin, England's easiest opponent in this tournament.

Other than that, the only thing you can really say to this post, apart from briefly wondering if it's intended to be satirical, is that it's completely bonkers.

 

[justsomebloke]

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Everyone’s favourite hipster cnut journalist has spoken. It’s been Pep all along with special mentions to Pochetino for making Shaw world class.

He does tend to get carried away by his own metaphors, but he's got a fair point here I think. He actually credits OGS for Shaw's development (if you read the article andnot just the tweet), which was nice to see.

 

[justsomebloke]

This team isn't winning because of Southgate. they are winning because they have a load of depth. But I can guarantee you that if a Pep or Klopp were leading this team, England would be doing it a lot better. This team is loaded with talent. There is no way either of those managers would be playing the same 4-2-3-1 that Gareth is. England may still win the tournament, but they could have made it a lot easier on them self than it has been

You really couldn't make this stuff up. You're so committed to your fixed idea about a manager that rather than adjust it on the evidence of results and what you should be able to see with your own eyes, you prefer to make yourself look like an absolute moron?

No one who knows anything about football believes that any amount of squad depth constitutes a guarantee of success in an international tournament with anything other than a blatantly incompetent manager. And anyone who puts in five seconds of thinking has no problem finding examples of teams with great depth and quality who failed miserably. Getting to a Euro final is very, very difficult for anyone, regardless of the quality of the squad. Doing it with a team that hasn't won anything (or reached a final) in half a century is a huge achievement. So stop making a fecking embarrassment of yourself mate. You're worse than that West Ham fan who was convinced West Ham was in the battle for a CL spot despite Moyes, and that any manager could have done the same.

 

[Can7onA]

Just because the calls he made didn't blow up in his face, it doesn't mean they were the right call

WTF are you on about, it's literally the definition of making the right call.

 

[Pickle85]

WTF are you on about, it's literally the definition of making the right call.

Not to be a nob but I think you need to look up the definition of 'literally' and 'definition'.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Scotland isn't England's toughest opponent in this tournament. They're, by some margin, England's easiest opponent in this tournament.

Other than that, the only thing you can really say to this post, apart from briefly wondering if it's intended to be satirical, is that it's completely bonkers.

You fail to understand local rivalries. If you just looked at rankings. It wouldn’t give you the whole story at all.

 

[::sonny::]

Next Sir

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[dumbo]

 

[Can7onA]

Not to be a nob but I think you need to look up the definition of 'literally' and 'definition'.

It's hard to be a sarcastic knob when you misspell words.

 

[Can7onA]

 

[Pickle85]

It's hard to be a sarcastic knob when you misspell words.

https://grammarist.com/homophones/knob-vs-nob/

That must be embarrassing for you...

 

[cyberman]

He gets enough. England have such a strong squad that i think the 11 he leaves out would beat the 11 he plays. I just get the feeling theres a better starting 11 in that squad

 

[Can7onA]

https://grammarist.com/homophones/knob-vs-nob/

That must be embarrassing for you...

Not really, you're still a knob.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Just read that Southgate drew a parallel with world war 2 saying they've tried to invade us before or something like it. Surely this has somehow been misscharacterized or something?

 

[Pickle85]

Not really, you're still a knob.

Dude, just stop. It's embarrassing.

 

[Can7onA]

He gets enough. England have such a strong squad that i think the 11 he leaves out would beat the 11 he plays. I just get the feeling theres a better starting 11 in that squad

I think he's going to stick with the safety first and throw the flair players on if wee go a goal down.

Italy don't have much up top that I don't think we can deal with, Insigne and Verrati are the key for Italy.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

Incredible how much of the stick for Southgate seems to just translate to "he's not playing my favourite players"

 

[sport2793]

Been cowardly today, you would have to be dumb to argue otherwise

 

[bosnian_red]

Ultimately he's too defensive of a manager. You have Emerson at left back and one of the best creative and dribbling wingers in the world in Sancho... yet you still make a sub with a focus of protecting Walker rather then a change that would make Italy have to change their focus.

 

[sport2793]

He's playing Jordan Henderson as a number 10

 

[ivaldo]

Incredible how much of the stick for Southgate seems to just translate to "he's not playing my favourite players"

29% possession in the second half. Best attackers in the world. Italy scores. Brings on a defensive midfielder and a fullback with 7 goals in his entire career. But yeah, it's because he won't play our favourite players.

 

[Neil_Buchanan]

Saka and Henderson on to change the game, ffs Southgate.

 

[Trequarista10]

He's playing Jordan Henderson as a number 10

Nah he's just the only player pressing up the pitch when Italy have possession.

Mount offering nothing in defence or possession. We need an outlet, one Grealish/Sancho/Rashford in his place.

 

[Stactix]

Coward.

 

[Red Stone]

https://grammarist.com/homophones/knob-vs-nob/

That must be embarrassing for you...

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/knob#English

8. (vulgar, slang, chiefly Britain) The penis.
9. (vulgar, slang) The head of the penis; the glans.
10. (slang, derogatory, by analogy with above) A contemptible person.

Oh dear...

 

[Redlambs]

Didn't change when they did, not until they scored 15 minutes later. And even then like for like.

He should be getting called out for his lack of a plan B.