English playmakers and the lack of them

RedStarUnited

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Why does England struggle to produce these type of players? In my adult years, England have had 2 and were both criminally under used (Scholes/Carrick). In England, we have 2 types of midfielders. The first type can run a lot and make tackles. The second type have the tackling part but are also able to score/make goals. We don't have any player like Kroos, Verrati/Jorginho, Busquets etc. Defensively and positionally aware players who help set the tempo for the team and help keep the ball.

Yesterday in extra time, Bonuci and Chielini were on yellow cards, tired and are slow anyway. But because Italy have much better ball players in midfield, the Italians CBs actually played a high line . They would never have dared to do that against Spain last week. Ironically, Spains issues are Englands strength. Give Spain the forward talents we have and they would have won these Euros.

In 2018, a lack of ability to keep the ball cost us against Croatia and we went out. Why was the emphasis then not put on making sure we go in to future tournaments with midfielders who can help keep the ball?

I can almost guarantee that we will have the same in issues in Qatar 2022. Foden is a great player but doesn't set tempo, I haven't seen enough of Jude Bellingham either but I don't see him in that mould.
 
Look at the Spain v Italy thread here on the Caf. The seething hatred towards Spain for being 'boring'. People were posting things like '1-0 to football' when Italy scored.

Now I'm not saying the Caf is necessarily representative when it comes to attitudes among England's football people but the genuine hatred of possession football does suggest a certain cultural issue. Ball retention for the sake of it is viewed with considerable suspicion and distrust.

I do think this attitude is changing but these things take time, a lot of it.
 
I'm hoping that Garner can come through and be that player. It would be nice to see an English midfield player with a good passing range.
 
RedStarUnited said:
Yesterday in extra time, Bonuci and Chielini were on yellow cards, tired and are slow anyway. But because Italy have much better ball players in midfield, the Italians CBs actually played a high line .
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Would they have continued to do that if Rashford and Sancho were brought on? They could play a high line because Kane and Sterling were also exhausted, both of whom had played 120mins versus the Danes and over played in the Tournament in general.

We have great technical ability in the squad, but they weren't being used in this Tournament by Southgate. He went with the defensive approach instead.
 
You can have all the best players in the world, if your coach picks a back 5 and Rice/Phillips in midfield, then it's still going to be dull football.
 
Siorac said:
Look at the Spain v Italy thread here on the Caf. The seething hatred towards Spain for being 'boring'. People were posting things like '1-0 to football' when Italy scored.

Now I'm not saying the Caf is necessarily representative when it comes to attitudes among England's football people but the genuine hatred of possession football does suggest a certain cultural issue. Ball retention for the sake of it is viewed with considerable suspicion and distrust.

I do think this attitude is changing but these things take time, a lot of it.
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It's so weird, because we hate but then it has scampered us at nearly every tournament when we have faced a big team. Id have thought Pep winning 3 out of 4 titles would maybe persuade some but in general you are right.

RedSky said:
Would they have continued to do that if Rashford and Sancho were brought on? They could play a high line because Kane and Sterling were also exhausted, both of whom had played 120mins versus the Danes and over played in the Tournament in general.

We have great technical ability in the squad, but they weren't being used in this Tournament by Southgate. He went with the defensive approach instead.
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Not in midfield we dont.
 
I expected a little more playmaking ability from Phillips given his ‘Yorkshire Pirlo’ nickname.
 
We do have playmakers, Grealish, Sancho, Foden are all great examples,

I think you mean a deep lying playmaker and I don't think Southgate would use them, he want's the 2 deepest midfielders to be ball winners in his setup it seems
 
Yeah, I see what the OP means. We have a lot of talent in the ranks, but they are all final third impact players - Foden, Sancho, Greenwood etc. Even Saka is basically more of a ball carrier/dribbler out wide.

What we don't have is someone in central midfield who just effortlessly flicks the ball around in central midfield, ending up with more touches than anyone else on the field. I don't think we've ever had one, really? Certainly not in my lifetime. The likes of Pedri, De Jong, Verratti, Modric etc etc. Guys who play effortlessly with the ball in central midfield. I mean, these guys are definitely dime a dozen midfielders, but I just don't think we've ever had one. Not even like a poor mans version of one in midfield either.
 
Because this country has, for the longest time, valued Gerrards and Parkers over Scholeses and Carricks.

Remember what Pirlo did to England in 2012 and 2014?
 
Remember the geese said:
I'm hoping that Garner can come through and be that player. It would be nice to see an English midfield player with a good passing range.
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Problem is will the manager actually choose him?

It's one thing to be a great player but when managers choose to ignore talent then it's futile.
 
It takes more than passing ability to become this type of player. It requires bravery to constantly receive the ball under pressure, decision making knowing when its okay to go backwards and sideways and when you can shift to a quick progressive pass catching the opponent out.

Henderson played the most passes in the premier league last season. He's probably the closest to this type of player and he isnt one either. Perhaps the problem is English teams moving the types of player who might be able to do it further forward. The season before last Maddison was playing a proper CM role at Leicester and could have developed this way. But last season he was pushed back into the attack and Tielemans played the real CM role instead. In terms of young players who could become this type of player, Wilshire and the super overhyped McEachran both failed to progress. Morgan Gibbs-White looks like he might have the technique and passing but again he looks set to be an attacking player at Wolves rather than one who will dictate from deeper ala Veratti and Jorginho.

People mention Garner. I think he has potential to maybe be a Carrick style with a passing range to set off counters and help defend, but I dont think he's going to be what Scholes was for example. And thats what we'd need to compete with the best playmakers in the world
 
They’ll be coached out of it.
 
The issue is at club level in the premiership. Fans would rather not have a slow playmaker passing sideways and backwards. Jorginho is a prime example of how much criticism he gets in the premiership, I've seen pundits question his importance constantly but when he plays for Italy we realise how important his deliberate style is.
Unless culturally fans change in expectations/demand we won't produce these midfielders. It's cultural and please don't mention Carrick because his performance thread here begs to differ. We all hated it when he passes sideways and backward, which I generally call exercising patience.
 
DWelbz19 said:
Yeah, I see what the OP means. We have a lot of talent in the ranks, but they are all final third impact players - Foden, Sancho, Greenwood etc. Even Saka is basically more of a ball carrier/dribbler out wide.

What we don't have is someone in central midfield who just effortlessly flicks the ball around in central midfield, ending up with more touches than anyone else on the field. I don't think we've ever had one, really? Certainly not in my lifetime. The likes of Pedri, De Jong, Verratti, Modric etc etc. Guys who play effortlessly with the ball in central midfield. I mean, these guys are definitely dime a dozen midfielders, but I just don't think we've ever had one. Not even like a poor mans version of one in midfield either.
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Scholes? Carrick?
 
Idxomer said:
Scholes? Carrick?
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Scholes is probably the one. I don't really think Carrick was that kind of midfielder, really. A great holding midfielder who could pass the ball, but not the same type of midfielder as those I've mentioned.
 
Neil_Buchanan said:
I expected a little more playmaking ability from Phillips given his ‘Yorkshire Pirlo’ nickname.
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I never understood the nickname either.

You mean 'Yorkshire Gattuso' right? :confused: I see no evidence of Pirlo in his game whatsoever.
 
DWelbz19 said:
Scholes is probably the one. I don't really think Carrick was that kind of midfielder, really. A great holding midfielder who could pass the ball, but not the same type of midfielder as those I've mentioned.
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You are right, the way those guys manipulate the ball in the middle of the pitch is definitely a rare sight from English midfielders.
 
Yeah we simply have to try and find a midfield tempo controller who is capable of putting his foot on the ball when the team is under pressure from the opposition and there is no sign of any coming through, until we are able to do this then sorry to say it people we won't win a Euros or World Cup because the best teams will eventually find you out when it matters.
 
English coaches just don't want those types of players.

You only have to see the clamour for a player like Rice in the media and pundits alike to see what they think is good for a midfielder.
 
croadyman said:
Yeah we simply have to try and find a midfield tempo controller who is capable of putting his foot on the ball when the team is under pressure from the opposition and there is no sign of any coming through, until we are able to do this then sorry to say it people we won't win a Euros or World Cup because the best teams will eventually find you out when it matters.
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You really think that?

Both of Italys CB's were on yellow cards at 90mins. Both of them had played a lot of football all of Italys back line were looking tired. They'd already taken off Chiesa and Insigne, two of their main danger players. All we had to do was play Italy on the counter but we couldn't do that when we had two tired forwards already on the pitch.

All we had to do was replace our front three at the full time whistle with three fresh fast players with the orders to play decisive quick football and go right at them. We had the tools on the bench and they were simply not used. We just kept going with the same tired formula that had resulted in neither Sterling or Kane having a single shot, let alone a shot on target. Yesterday was not a midfield problem, it might be in the future, but yesterday was entirely down to Southgates reluctance to attempt to change anything on the pitch. He allowed Italy to control the game, he allowed them to dictate the tempo. It was entirely down to the management staff.
 
Because those players are rare. England don't have a single player like that currently.

Btw Spain is still a terribly boring side. Having a deep lying playmaker doesn't make you boring, we were never boring with Scholes, Milan were never boring with Pirlo etc. However Spain and the way they have played internationally aside from 2012 have been very boring ( 2008 wasn't the dull and dreadful Spanish version of Tika taka, the Barca variant was different)
 
RedStarUnited said:
Why does England struggle to produce these type of players? In my adult years, England have had 2 and were both criminally under used (Scholes/Carrick). In England, we have 2 types of midfielders. The first type can run a lot and make tackles. The second type have the tackling part but are also able to score/make goals. We don't have any player like Kroos, Verrati/Jorginho, Busquets etc. Defensively and positionally aware players who help set the tempo for the team and help keep the ball.
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DWelbz19 said:
Yeah, I see what the OP means. We have a lot of talent in the ranks, but they are all final third impact players - Foden, Sancho, Greenwood etc. Even Saka is basically more of a ball carrier/dribbler out wide.

What we don't have is someone in central midfield who just effortlessly flicks the ball around in central midfield, ending up with more touches than anyone else on the field. I don't think we've ever had one, really? Certainly not in my lifetime. The likes of Pedri, De Jong, Verratti, Modric etc etc. Guys who play effortlessly with the ball in central midfield. I mean, these guys are definitely dime a dozen midfielders, but I just don't think we've ever had one. Not even like a poor mans version of one in midfield either.
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DWelbz19 said:
Scholes is probably the one. I don't really think Carrick was that kind of midfielder, really. A great holding midfielder who could pass the ball, but not the same type of midfielder as those I've mentioned.
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Carrick definitely was that player described in the OP. In SAF's final season he averaged 77 passes per game. No one was close to him. He was arguably our player of the season and at the time on here we were talking about, how he was a one man midfield. Not really arguing with anyone, who says that Busquets, Xavi, Modric, Pirlo, Kroos or Scholes were better than him, but he was definitely as good as Jorginho for example.
 
Siorac said:
Look at the Spain v Italy thread here on the Caf. The seething hatred towards Spain for being 'boring'. People were posting things like '1-0 to football' when Italy scored.

Now I'm not saying the Caf is necessarily representative when it comes to attitudes among England's football people but the genuine hatred of possession football does suggest a certain cultural issue. Ball retention for the sake of it is viewed with considerable suspicion and distrust.

I do think this attitude is changing but these things take time, a lot of it.
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Well it's more so "victims" of this perceived style which saw their team lose over and over to teams that pass and play possession football. Italy were literally there for the taking during the first 20 minutes for the very least.

The issue is that they do have quality players that can play a much more creative style of football. And they're all young so I can only blame the manager for the way they're set up.
 
Siorac said:
Look at the Spain v Italy thread here on the Caf. The seething hatred towards Spain for being 'boring'. People were posting things like '1-0 to football' when Italy scored.

Now I'm not saying the Caf is necessarily representative when it comes to attitudes among England's football people but the genuine hatred of possession football does suggest a certain cultural issue. Ball retention for the sake of it is viewed with considerable suspicion and distrust.

I do think this attitude is changing but these things take time, a lot of it.
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You make a very interesting point but many people other than English find that style boring. Even in Spain many people find it boring so I don't think it tells the whole picture. It's perfectly possible to have very good technical playmakers in midfield and be far less cautious and direct when passing the ball and we have seen teams with those traits in Real Madrid, Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund the past decade. Having players who are comfortable on the ball in midfield allows you to compete in more different stages of a game, same as Manchester United did in the past under Alex Ferguson.

The first post is right imo. England has produced very few midfielders as compared to the rest of countries.
 
RedSky said:
You really think that?

Both of Italys CB's were on yellow cards at 90mins. Both of them had played a lot of football all of Italys back line were looking tired. They'd already taken off Chiesa and Insigne, two of their main danger players. All we had to do was play Italy on the counter but we couldn't do that when we had two tired forwards already on the pitch.

All we had to do was replace our front three at the full time whistle with three fresh fast players with the orders to play decisive quick football and go right at them. We had the tools on the bench and they were simply not used. We just kept going with the same tired formula that had resulted in neither Sterling or Kane having a single shot, let alone a shot on target. Yesterday was not a midfield problem, it might be in the future, but yesterday was entirely down to Southgates reluctance to attempt to change anything on the pitch. He allowed Italy to control the game, he allowed them to dictate the tempo. It was entirely down to the management staff.
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Oh Yeah there is no doubt he took too long to make changes like Grealish should have come on straight after they scored, honestly think someone more tactically astute like a Guardiola or Tuchel would have the guts to make that big call. I just feel that we invite this on to ourselves by not keeping the ball well enough like we saw in the second half of many major tournament knockout games against the top teams.
 
DWelbz19 said:
Yeah, I see what the OP means. We have a lot of talent in the ranks, but they are all final third impact players - Foden, Sancho, Greenwood etc. Even Saka is basically more of a ball carrier/dribbler out wide.

What we don't have is someone in central midfield who just effortlessly flicks the ball around in central midfield, ending up with more touches than anyone else on the field. I don't think we've ever had one, really? Certainly not in my lifetime. The likes of Pedri, De Jong, Verratti, Modric etc etc. Guys who play effortlessly with the ball in central midfield. I mean, these guys are definitely dime a dozen midfielders, but I just don't think we've ever had one. Not even like a poor mans version of one in midfield either.
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Carrick?
 
You can't complain about not being able to knock the ball about when you make the selections that Southgate made. He was genuinely trying not to have the ball. Grealish can keep it with the best of them. He also played in the middle at the end of the season and was typically great. Fast-forward to the tournament he's nowhere to be seen.
 
I think its a problem sourcing from the grassroots of English football - there's far too much emphasis on raw athleticism. I genuinely think a lot of the players that come through La Masia or any other prestigious continental football academy wouldn't get a sniff at most English club trials, or if they did they'd have that technical aspect coached out of them. Scholes was an anomaly.

I hope for England's sake that a lot more young players follow Sancho and Bellingham's example in developing themselves abroad.
 
Sanchi and Grealish are top playmakers. Just that English system (Southgate system) doesn't prefer this type of players.
 
I would say that it's because in british media these players are not popular. Playmakers are rarely box to box, they generally have clear weaknesses defensively and in England a "proper" midfielder needs to be everywhere and eventually nowhere. An example of such playmaker is Scholes who is I believe largely underrated outside of United fans.
 
Chabon said:
Because this country has, for the longest time, valued Gerrards and Parkers over Scholeses and Carricks.

Remember what Pirlo did to England in 2012 and 2014?
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This. We have a culture against it. Those Italian midfielders were far ahead of ours, and yet I am not even sure we would have picked them. We do not pick/use those types of players and so we do not encourage a culture that produces them.
 
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