Watched them again. Sancho's and Saka's were both decent strikes and very good saves. Seen much worse go in just out of luck, like Bernardeschi's. Rashford missed by a few centimetres. Such a shame but you can't really blame them.
Saka 19, Sancho 21, Rashford 23. . . Why were these England’s 3rd, 4th & 5th Penalty Taker?
- Thread starter AFC NimbleThumb
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It was definitely him.
Fecking hell. We're talking Marcus Rashford and Jadon Sancho here, not Dave and Phil from The Fox & Hound. That shows his mentality.
When all is said and done, his handling of the penalties and his reasoning behind it should lead to us parting ways with him as manager. He's made is clear he's not up to the job of managing on a big stage.
I am sure few idiots cant affect the love and pride he has for his country and playing for England.
It's a pure lie. Having more time on pitch doesn't improve ones ability to net a penalty. If it were so. They'd never be any cases of a player scoring in regulation time a penalty and then missing one in the shoot out.
Sako may be the best in practice but you don't send an inexperienced kid to take a penalty especially so late.
Rashford,yes. He is experienced but even he got the pressure and missed it.
Maybe like Ando if he had closed his eyes and hit it right down the middle he may have scored.
Rashford,yes. He is experienced but even he got the pressure and missed it.
Maybe like Ando if he had closed his eyes and hit it right down the middle he may have scored.
Being on the pitch longer might have led to a goal without even going to penalties. Why in god's name did he want it to go to penalties.
What are you on about? We are talking about logic here. Sometimes players miss yes. But you want said players to be put in as good mental states as possible. If someone misses whilst having the best circumstances fair enough. But coming on completely cold is a far more pressured situation it's just logic.
Yes - this is exactly it for me. When watching live I assumed sterling must have been subbed not to take the 5th.
This thread is just full of people wanting to make excuses.
Rashford is 23, he's been a professional for over 5 years now. He is no kid. He's taken pens before and is one of England's top goalscorers at club level.
He should ABSOLUTELY be taking one and you'd have made a thread about how it's disgraceful he didn't take one if it was a defender that missed one and he didn't get to shoot.
Sancho is in the same boat, a player wth 30+ G+A for three consecutive seasons. One of England's top attackers. Why does his age matter? He's been at a top level for a while. You'll always want a top attacker take one over a defender.
Now on to Saka, if he took one for Arsenal no one would bat an eye or say anything really. If the fuss is about him being the 5th taker, well taking the 5th pen means nothing. You cannot know in advance that the 5th pen will be the final one. Had Jorginho scored, Sancho's would've been the final one, had Rashford or Sancho scored then Saka missing wouldn't have been the final pen either
He's 19, not 16 or 17, I think it's a shame Sterling didn't step up to take one, and I'd have had Grealish take one ahead of Saka too, but in the end every one must shoot and I'd still pick Saka over Stones for example
Rashford is 23, he's been a professional for over 5 years now. He is no kid. He's taken pens before and is one of England's top goalscorers at club level.
He should ABSOLUTELY be taking one and you'd have made a thread about how it's disgraceful he didn't take one if it was a defender that missed one and he didn't get to shoot.
Sancho is in the same boat, a player wth 30+ G+A for three consecutive seasons. One of England's top attackers. Why does his age matter? He's been at a top level for a while. You'll always want a top attacker take one over a defender.
Now on to Saka, if he took one for Arsenal no one would bat an eye or say anything really. If the fuss is about him being the 5th taker, well taking the 5th pen means nothing. You cannot know in advance that the 5th pen will be the final one. Had Jorginho scored, Sancho's would've been the final one, had Rashford or Sancho scored then Saka missing wouldn't have been the final pen either
He's 19, not 16 or 17, I think it's a shame Sterling didn't step up to take one, and I'd have had Grealish take one ahead of Saka too, but in the end every one must shoot and I'd still pick Saka over Stones for example
You’ve clearly done your research, I haven’t. Can I ask / confirm - do your numbers include only ‘in game’ penalties or also shootout penalties?
So Grealish has come out and said he would of taken one. So really it is on Southgate. Beyond stupid
I miss the Rashford from a few years back - the explosive attacker who would take on defenders and run down the channels. I don't know if its his injuries but lately he seems to play with an undeserving, relaxed swagger you'd expect from a 30+ year old world class player who conserves their energy for the moments it matters. You'd expect that demeanour from a 36 year old Ronaldo, but not a 23 year old Rashford who still has a lot to prove.
Do you think? I think they were woeful to be honest, perfect height for the keeper, not particularly well struck with power either. Of course if the keeper goes the opposite way they're better than Rashford's effort because at least they were on target. Very good saves seems a massive stretch to me, which is exactly what the keeper didn't have to do. I'd expect most keepers to save them if they go the right way.
Edit: Further edits as I missed the Nations League third place shootout!
All from Transfermarkt. I must confess and didn't realise until someone told me that TM's player data pages are weirdly missing a lot of high profile penalty shootouts, but they do include a random few. The exact numbers are therefore a little out. I strongly believe my main argument still stands though, which was that the cupboard was pretty bare after Kane and Rashford. I did quite a bit more manual research this morning and don't think anyone else has scored more than four penalties, in game or shootouts, for clubs at senior level, apart from Kane and Rashford. Sancho had scored 3/3 for Dortmund and one in the Nations League.
Maguire scored a couple for Leicester in shootouts and one in the Nations League, which made him a more obvious taker when you look further. But other than that? Grealish has scored one in a shootout for Villa but has only ever missed one during a game. Walker has scored one for Spurs in a shootout but right down at number nine or ten. Tripper has scored one for England but was unavailable, otherwise he would have likely taken one. Mount has another goal and another miss in shootouts for Chelsea. Sterling actually has scored in a shootout for City and England, but is 2-3 in matches. Phillips has scored one for Leeds. Shaw's penalty against Villareal was converted, but pretty crap way down the pecking order.
That still leaves you with Kane and Rashford as certainties. Maguire and Sancho the other players with at a couple of penalties taken and a 100% record at senior level. If Saka was performing well in training and you have faith in him, I can understand why. There's really not a good obvious candidate looking at all the data available.
The same manager's processes and approaches worked against Colombia and Switzerland. We shouldn't be too results-oriented after losing a single shootout.
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Yup they were exactly where a keeper wants them to stand a chance. Never mind a keeper as big as Donnarumma. It's as if they'd given no thought to their opponent to be honest.
It was really obvious what was going to happen with those 3.
I really hope Ole gets over his delayed subs because with Southgate doing the same it's just become really fecking annoying.
In itself I don't think it's questionable to bring in Sancho and Rashford for the pens* - on the contrary as both are being good at that. But in broader context (both having played very little in the whole tourney despite being "high" profile players without much impact at all or being weirdly handled like Sancho) as well as in closer context (having both shoot within the first 5 takers, even one after the other which I think is not the best idea either) it's quite obvious that it was managed rather "sub-par" by Southgate. But the whole combination of having three still extremely young players taking the last three pens is an idea very hard to follow - with Saka being the top flop of an idea. Poor lad.
Maguire was the prime example that you don't need super skilled technicians to take the pens but players that can stand first of all the immense pressure - so at least let one of probably Shaw or Henderson or Walker or Stones shoot one instead and if Maguire is the top dog mentality wise let him take the fifth (or Kane vice versa).
*although both should have been on the pitch pre ET imho.
Maguire was the prime example that you don't need super skilled technicians to take the pens but players that can stand first of all the immense pressure - so at least let one of probably Shaw or Henderson or Walker or Stones shoot one instead and if Maguire is the top dog mentality wise let him take the fifth (or Kane vice versa).
*although both should have been on the pitch pre ET imho.
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Because in training they were likely the best penalty takers. My biggest problem with the takers was that with rashford and sancho they weren't even a little warm. Did they even get a touch on the ball? Get them on the field sooner. Problem though is southgate plays favourites and won't dare sub of sterling...
He's 25 and has spent his entire career ducking them at Villa. I'm sorry, but the idea that Grealish is now playing to the crowd and trying to save face is ridiculous. We've got seasons of evidence at Villa, with many different indifferent penalty takers, to suggest Grealish isn't exactly champing at the bit to ever take a penalty.
Also let us not forget rashford and sancho came when Italy had won the corner and then Rashford was asked to play rb. That showed how little the manager trusted them. It was poor by southgate.
I agree since there is obviously a lot of luck involved in those shootout-lotteries and hindsight is always 20/20 but still: if you know well in advance that your squad isn't equipped THAT deep in trusted pen-takers you should a) either make sure that those that are reliable ones are well vested within the tournament. Here you can certainly place some deserved criticism at Southgate (btw. what happened to Foden?? I'd guess he has the guts and technique to take pens as well) or b) set up your in-game matchplan that you likely defeat your opponent within 120mins (more like 130mins yesterday). Here Southgate can certainly be criticised as well since he played the low-risk game till the very (bitter) end while holding all the trumps in his hands two minutes into the final already.
Because he won't let the opinion of some utter cretins stop him from playing for his country, would be my guess.
Yup.
Cristiano Ronaldo was heavily criticized for being the 5th penalty taker in the Euros semis against Spain. His teammates missed so he never got to take it.
No way to put a kid to take a 5th.
Also, why dont sub on Rashford and Sancho earlier to let them warming up. Aren't their penalty shoot to be their first ball touching？
Southgate was just throw them under the bus, also, no way to sub out Henderson, he should take one piece of 5 penalty shoot.
Also, why dont sub on Rashford and Sancho earlier to let them warming up. Aren't their penalty shoot to be their first ball touching？
Southgate was just throw them under the bus, also, no way to sub out Henderson, he should take one piece of 5 penalty shoot.
Grealish has come out and said that he asked to take one but Southgate chose the takers and turned him down.
It's all on Southgate. Schoolboy manager. Got lucky with home games and an easy draw then showed his ineptitude in the final.
I'm inclined to believe Grealish as I do seem to recall a shot of him nodding is head in the huddle when Southgate was talking to him. Of course it may have been unrelated. Still can't believe the total shambles from Southgate with that penalty shootout.
Its not rocket science. Sterling had no business playing 120 minutes, especially if he wasn't going to take a penalty. Put Rashford and Sancho on at 105 for Sterling and Saka, so that they have a chance to affect the game and then settle their nerves before the shootout.
Given how things went, Saka still should not have been chosen to take a penalty but if you're going to select him, no reason to put him 5th when the pressure will be absolutely immense. Frankly, Maguire would have been the best choice there because he's not the best penalty taker (so not a bad thing if he doesn't end up kicking) but you should trust him to have the nerves if he does kick.
Given how things went, Saka still should not have been chosen to take a penalty but if you're going to select him, no reason to put him 5th when the pressure will be absolutely immense. Frankly, Maguire would have been the best choice there because he's not the best penalty taker (so not a bad thing if he doesn't end up kicking) but you should trust him to have the nerves if he does kick.
Rashford made perfect sense. He is a very reliable penalty scorer. Better players than him have lost pens, and it can happen to everyone. He totally fooled Donnaruma, and was just unlucky.
Sancho and Saka on the other hand was a mystery. How many competitive pens have they scored combined? When you also consider their ages (and in case of Sancho just entering the game), it made not much sense.
Sancho and Saka on the other hand was a mystery. How many competitive pens have they scored combined? When you also consider their ages (and in case of Sancho just entering the game), it made not much sense.
This is a penalty shootout not an in game pen. Didn't a Villa fan say he took one when they got promoted? Southgate said it was his decision, Grealish said he out his hand up. Why are you creating your own line of thinking?
best penalty taker has to take 5th.. Pirlo's 5th is still remembered and so is Ronaldo's and also Jorginhos (although he missed yesterday)
The penalties missed weren't really bad.
Both players should've been subbed on earlier. Saka should've been someone else due to inexperience.
Both players should've been subbed on earlier. Saka should've been someone else due to inexperience.
I disagree, we've seen it before where the 5th penalty taker doesn't even get to take a penalty as the shootout is lost before it even gets to them. If we had Kane as the 5th penalty taker, there's a good chance that he wouldn't have even taken his penalty.
The panenka? That was Italy's third penalty in that shootout.
Some things certainly seem bizarre in hindsight.
- Bringing on penalty takers with only a few minutes to warm up
- Kane not going 5th
- Saka, who has never taken a senior penalty for Arsenal going 5th
The Saka one seems bizzare. I can understand the other choices but clearly they should have been given some more time to accilmatize. Especially as both have played very few minutes in the preceding matches as well.
No, the best takers have to go first, second and third. The fourth and fifth penalty might not even matter. Taking the fifth is just attention hugging and wanting to be the hero.
I think it really depends on the squad but I've heard some coaches say the best should go 1, 3 and 5.