I think better CMs would position themselves better, it's a skill like anything else. We have Carrick, one of the best in our coaching staff. I doubt he can't see it.
How we fail in our build-up and why
- Thread starter andersj
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Not to mention that a keeper with a better range of accurate passing could launch plenty of attacks without the ponderous slow passing out of defence and through midfield we’re stuck with. Look at the way Ederson and Allison can ping the ball straight to wingers feet. It also keep the opposition honest. Much harder to swarm our defence if they can be bypassed by long accurate passes to our front players.
It’s got to the stage that De Gea picking out a fullback’s feet with a lofted pass is an unusual and joyous thing to see. Never mind a winger!
Having a proper CF, who we can occasionally hit with a long pass (and expect the ball to stick) would also cause pose more questions for teams that want to press us high up the pitch. Or even a striker who will run the fecking channels. Martial up front compounded all our problems in the build up against Southampton.
Last edited:
Just because he was a fine CM doesn't mean he's a good coach.
Maybe our team does what the coaching staff instruct them. I highly doubt Matic himself drops between the CBs. It's obviously a coaching instruction.
Thank you for sharing this. It confirms what so many of us feel. Just look at how amateurish Matic and Fred are dropping into the same space. The coaching is not good enough.
I know this was literally against Championship side West Brom’s second team (they genuinely made like 10 changes), but the passes like these from yesterday’s game are ones we never see De Gea, or even Henderson, pull off:
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
The Unbearable Dullness of Manchester United’s Double Pivot
This is an article written back in June by the lady who the OP posted the tweet of. It's regarding the dreaded double-pivot. Again a very good article.
This is an article written back in June by the lady who the OP posted the tweet of. It's regarding the dreaded double-pivot. Again a very good article.
In the Leipzig home game we won 5-0, Donny was brilliant and exactly what we've been missing since and before.
Leipzig came to press us and exploit AWB, Donny still fresh from Ajax really stepped in to overcome their press and led by example with his quick one touch passing and covering across the pitch to help AWB, it seems Ole didn't recognize what was going on. How Donny never started the away game and has been left to rot is baffling. I accept in much later performances he wasn't good and looked lost but he was right on point early on, Watch the Newcastle away game that year, he came on and transformed us to have a quick turnaround in midfield and score late goals to win.
If you watch the Leipzig game or Ajax's CL run, what Donny did was a lot of donkey work for De Jong, one touch recycling, doing a lot of covering intercepting and then joining attacks. We've been sorely missing this type of energy and quick quality one touch passing for years.
Donny even mentioned in an interview early on how slow the build up is during United matches but in training it's not and seemed frustrated. He wants to play quickly yet most of the team dwell on the ball and end up playing too many poor passes. Donny could've continued to lead by example and improve our midfield but now he's lost his sharpness and role he'd like to do.
Leipzig came to press us and exploit AWB, Donny still fresh from Ajax really stepped in to overcome their press and led by example with his quick one touch passing and covering across the pitch to help AWB, it seems Ole didn't recognize what was going on. How Donny never started the away game and has been left to rot is baffling. I accept in much later performances he wasn't good and looked lost but he was right on point early on, Watch the Newcastle away game that year, he came on and transformed us to have a quick turnaround in midfield and score late goals to win.
If you watch the Leipzig game or Ajax's CL run, what Donny did was a lot of donkey work for De Jong, one touch recycling, doing a lot of covering intercepting and then joining attacks. We've been sorely missing this type of energy and quick quality one touch passing for years.
Donny even mentioned in an interview early on how slow the build up is during United matches but in training it's not and seemed frustrated. He wants to play quickly yet most of the team dwell on the ball and end up playing too many poor passes. Donny could've continued to lead by example and improve our midfield but now he's lost his sharpness and role he'd like to do.
Last edited:
The best ball moving teams like barca under pep have one thing. Their first touch under pressure and ability to control the ball. Yes all the other teams also have players but the movement off the ball and ability to create passing angles for player who had possession.Thats top notch. It's not like player had to do perfect pass each time but players received created the space and angle for the players had possession.
Bayern and city under pep had the advantage except they were not having messi. Just look at Klopp s liverpool. Their front three and full backs had fantastic movement hence their midfield despite looking good their passing looked top class because their front player movements.
Cavani had the movement hence you played with him naturally he provided passing option but without him united struggled against organised defense. So rather than midfield your problem lies with front player movements in my opinion.
Bayern and city under pep had the advantage except they were not having messi. Just look at Klopp s liverpool. Their front three and full backs had fantastic movement hence their midfield despite looking good their passing looked top class because their front player movements.
Cavani had the movement hence you played with him naturally he provided passing option but without him united struggled against organised defense. So rather than midfield your problem lies with front player movements in my opinion.
I haven’t watched Henderson a lot but his passing seems decent?
The video examples in the Twitter threads are great. Far too often our centre halves just pass it between each other with nobody to pass to in midfield.
A “very good article” which seems to imply signing Xhaka would solve all our problems.
Not just passing the ball; showing for it when the pressure or press is on is also something the majority of players either shy away from or are really bad at executing. Your midfield is supposed to buy your side time, kill the opposition's desire to hunt in packs and control the pace or tone of the game. We're not a CL or league-challenging side in any of these facets and we're more likely to wilt over hold our own when he have to a play a considered game, as opposed to breakneck countering where things are elementary.
De Gea is a problem, but nothing like the issues ahead of him.
De Gea is a problem, but nothing like the issues ahead of him.
Maybe, maybe not. Players aren't robots with every moved being controlled by the coaches, they should be able to think for themselves as well.
Van der Beek. His ability to move the ball quickly is ideal against pressing sides. He's also right footed so it would move Fred back to his normal left sided position.
Having Matic in the side means Fred has to play on the right, it messes the whole chemistry of the team up.
Even if that wasn't a possibility, then I would have trusted Pogba to play in CM and played Sancho from the start on the left.
Matic for me is just not the answer in any situation apart from a sub role or playing against teams we are beating comfortably.
They aren't robots, but the game today has way more 'automations' than before.
Fred, Mctominay, Matic arent good enough to progress the ball through the lines. We end up passing it in a horse shoe shape between wingers, fullbacks and centre backs. This is particularly the case when we face a team that presses as a unit.
People put way too much emphasis on the passing skills of the players. Its movement & positioning, not passing, that's the problem.
If you have an opposition player closing you down but there are two clear teammates within 15 yards to choose from, passing is pretty easy. But if your closest teammates are static and the opposition have blocked the passing routes you need to be a superb passer, because you're having to ping it 30+ yards through congested areas. When you watch any good team play their way out of trouble at the back, they're not all threading difficult balls through the eye of a needle all the time, or megging the opposition in one on ones. Rather they always have a forward pass on to an unmarked player, because that player has found their way into space to receive the ball.
If you have an opposition player closing you down but there are two clear teammates within 15 yards to choose from, passing is pretty easy. But if your closest teammates are static and the opposition have blocked the passing routes you need to be a superb passer, because you're having to ping it 30+ yards through congested areas. When you watch any good team play their way out of trouble at the back, they're not all threading difficult balls through the eye of a needle all the time, or megging the opposition in one on ones. Rather they always have a forward pass on to an unmarked player, because that player has found their way into space to receive the ball.
The fact that OGS is happy with out holding midfield options when he clearly is intent on playing 2 of Matic, Fred, Mctom there is incredibly worrying for his credentials as a top manager.
Yeah neither of our GKs are confident enough to do that.
It certainly would be interesting to see VdB. The question is if he's good enough to cover the defensive side. Pogba is not ideal, he is not press resistant and he's too good in his "new" position, but yeah, I guess anything is better than Fred/Matic.
Keeper, AWB and central mid clearly our biggest issues here, and also issues I’d imagine the likes of Klopp, Tuchel or Pep would’ve ironed out ages ago.
I am really struggling to understand why he is so insisted on this double pivot bs. His best performances came when he lined us up in a 433 with Matic as the DM, Herrera and Pogba. That was when he started off as the interim coach!
There are a few obvious issues:
- DDG : so fecking slow to release the ball
- AWB : bad on the ball and always goes hiding when needed to receive it
- CM's: both are bad at receiving the ball facing their own ball. That's on them and on the others around them as well.
One minor improvement would be to play a bit faster, DDG and Maguire are ball hoggers when starting the build up and it fecks us up a lot.
- DDG : so fecking slow to release the ball
- AWB : bad on the ball and always goes hiding when needed to receive it
- CM's: both are bad at receiving the ball facing their own ball. That's on them and on the others around them as well.
One minor improvement would be to play a bit faster, DDG and Maguire are ball hoggers when starting the build up and it fecks us up a lot.
He likes that fact we are hard to beat playing that way. I cant see us being much better than last season in honesty due to the default negative approach and the fact that we won't kill off games when we are ahead.
Midfielders should make the space and be in a position to take the ball and move with it. Maguire and Lindelof/Varane can find a pass into space.
We need to get these midfielders in and sort our system out in training and in games.
We need to get these midfielders in and sort our system out in training and in games.
We barely had any defending to do to be honest. We dominated the match, the 2 chances they had came from us messing around at the back and not clearing it properly (their goal) and then Maguire gifting them a 1 on 1 chance.
I just don't think we can play a double pivot with Matic there anymore.
The issue is whether we would have dominated the match as much without Fred and Matic. Their passing was well off but they did a decent job when the opposition had the ball. As soon as Fred was subbed off Southampton’s second half possession jumped from 27% to 60% and we went from pressing hard for a goal to almost complete aimlessness.
In fairness, I didn’t actually read any of the analysis. It was more a reaction to the first few replies.
There’s two solutions - and neither is buying more players and spending more money in the hope we get better.
1. Ole hires a coach who has a track record of coaching an organised press. We still can’t do it and it’s been years, it’s genuinely unacceptable when you think of the stature of club we consider ourselves. The Athletic had that article last season which showed Mou’s team pressed better than us now (which is nuts). This then alleviates the biggest issue which is getting the ball behind the oppo’s midfield and allows for less creativity and less pressure on our build up play in possession.
2. Ole finally sacks off the double pivot, gets comfortable with risking a single defensively minded CM and we try to build attacks and keep possession higher up the pitch. We will concede goals but we should ramp up the amount of chances we create and if we’re not winning things, we can at least see some attacking football consistently through the season. Play cautiously against the top 6 or so but it’s overkill to be so defensive against lower teams. Again though, this is down to the coaches to setup the system and we have no one of elite experience bar Phelan and he’s been semi retired in Aus when we resigned him.
1. Ole hires a coach who has a track record of coaching an organised press. We still can’t do it and it’s been years, it’s genuinely unacceptable when you think of the stature of club we consider ourselves. The Athletic had that article last season which showed Mou’s team pressed better than us now (which is nuts). This then alleviates the biggest issue which is getting the ball behind the oppo’s midfield and allows for less creativity and less pressure on our build up play in possession.
2. Ole finally sacks off the double pivot, gets comfortable with risking a single defensively minded CM and we try to build attacks and keep possession higher up the pitch. We will concede goals but we should ramp up the amount of chances we create and if we’re not winning things, we can at least see some attacking football consistently through the season. Play cautiously against the top 6 or so but it’s overkill to be so defensive against lower teams. Again though, this is down to the coaches to setup the system and we have no one of elite experience bar Phelan and he’s been semi retired in Aus when we resigned him.
It misses the lowlights of when he kicked it straight against a West Brom attacker once and straight out of play another time.
Not just passing it between the lines. To play through a press your CMs need to he comfortable playing one two tuch football and having the ball under complete control at all/most times. I don't know about everyone but I don't trust any of our main three CMs int his regard. They all seem to need a few touches to get the ball under complete control, so it's hardly a surprise they arent good at playing through a press or against parked buses. Then you have the coaching issue and it's a bit of a mess really
You are missing the point. Its not about Ramsdale's quality but simply showcasing a kind of pass our GKs never try to make.
Yeah he wasn’t great overall and that clip flattered him. Arsenal do put their keeper under a crazy amount of pressure though. Dread to think how DDG would cope if he was receiving passes on the edge of his six yard box - with strikers closing in fast - as often as an Arsenal keeper.
It is a good way to beat the press though. If we take one of their attackers out of the game by tempting him to close down our keeper down that immediately creates additional space/options for everyone else. If nobody ever bothers pressing DDG (and he can’t/won’t bypass the press with a long pass) then it becomes that bit harder to get the ball out of defence.
You're right that they do let him have the ball when we're actually attacking because he's the least likely to hurt them. But they also consistently use him as the trigger for their pressing game against us as we try to build out from the back in earlier phases of play.
It's not just about him cheaply giving away the ball under pressure (as he did with the pass to Matic highlighted in one of the OP's twitter threads, for example) but also because he struggles to gather the ball, turn on it and/or play progressive passes, instead being forced to immediately play the ball backwards to the RCB or sideways to the RCM. So even if they can't force AWB to give the ball away, or if they can't then target the RCB/RCM (knowing that's where the ball will going immediately after they press AWB) causing *them* to give the ball away, they're still stopping us from being able to build out down the right hand side of the pitch.
Great article cheers.
IMO the main problem with AWB is consistency. When he’s on top of his game I don’t see any of the problems you describe there. But he’s not often on top of his game and when he’s not feeling it he can definitely become a bit of a liability. He is yong and lernin though. Luke Shaw was similarly unreliable at the same age.
Good thread. Nice to see some tactical discussion on here
The only comment I would make is around the staff not recognising that this has been a problem for us. I don't believe that to be the case. For me a lot of these 'problems' are exacerbated by the failure of Donny to integrate himself within this team. I don't get the impression than any of our signings have been opportunistic - ie a great deal on paper but not part of the plan. Donny looks like the most obvious candidate for somebody who would fall into this category, but I believe his signing was a genuine intent to bring in a player that could break the lines with his passing. It just hasn't worked out so far.
We still have problems within our squad. An incomplete team if you will. RW and CB were just as big an issue for us so we should applaud the signings that were made this summer - and we still haven't seen the impact that Varane might have on our overall team shape. I think the potential of that is what made him a more pressing priority than midfield if, as is likely, the staff were advised that two key signings was our likely limit.
I am very much looking forward to seeing a United XI that contains Varane, Sancho, Cavani & Henderson and I suspect that if everybody was up to speed our preferred XI would look quite different to what we saw on Sunday.
The only comment I would make is around the staff not recognising that this has been a problem for us. I don't believe that to be the case. For me a lot of these 'problems' are exacerbated by the failure of Donny to integrate himself within this team. I don't get the impression than any of our signings have been opportunistic - ie a great deal on paper but not part of the plan. Donny looks like the most obvious candidate for somebody who would fall into this category, but I believe his signing was a genuine intent to bring in a player that could break the lines with his passing. It just hasn't worked out so far.
We still have problems within our squad. An incomplete team if you will. RW and CB were just as big an issue for us so we should applaud the signings that were made this summer - and we still haven't seen the impact that Varane might have on our overall team shape. I think the potential of that is what made him a more pressing priority than midfield if, as is likely, the staff were advised that two key signings was our likely limit.
I am very much looking forward to seeing a United XI that contains Varane, Sancho, Cavani & Henderson and I suspect that if everybody was up to speed our preferred XI would look quite different to what we saw on Sunday.
Shaw won our player of the year when he was AWB's current age.
Shaw's problem wasn't consistency, it was the fact that he always needed 3-4 games to catch-up to speed every time he got injured and he got injured very frequently.
Whenever Shaw was healthy he always looked like one of our top 3 players.
Yeah I googled AWB’s age after I posted that. I thought he was a year younger than he is. I think he might be a late developer though. The fact he had some really excellent games last season gives me hope for the future.
Which tells you although Fred had a sloppy day at passing, he was the one holding it all together as usual. Why we decided to sub him instead of Matic i'll never know.
Matic shouldn't be anywhere near the first 11. He just doesn't have the legs, you have to be able to run in this league.