This is absurd. We are stacked in almost every position with world class players. If this isn't an elite team, then I don't know what is. Not every team can be Zidane's Madrid or Pep's Barcelona. This team should be fully capable of challenging for the title, easily, if I might add. Anything else is delusion. It's not like City or Liverpool didn't have weak positions when they won the title.
Are we a CDM short of being an elite team?
- Thread starter Bastian
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The best solution is to play a midfield 2 of Pogba and Mctominay.In my opinion Scott is our best DM...He’s dynamic,strong,quick,can pass a ball and always gives great energy to our midfield.Alongside a dynamic DM like Scott,Pogba can play as a deep lying playmaker...This combination is certainly worth a try...
If by competing you mean getting closer without winning anything of note, I would say that is likely. I don't think that is the expectation this season though - people want to see trophies, and rightly so, but this team is hamstrung if we don't sign a midfielder. Ronaldo might be a physical specimen but there's a finite number of years left in him. If you sign a player like that it should be with the intent to win, and the fundamentals (i.e. a midfielder) should come first.
I'm not trying to scapegoat McTominay or Fred here. They are decent midfielders but they aren't title winning midfielders, they're squad players.
Everything we've heard from the well connected journalists suggests Solskjaer does want another midfielder. Since the Varane signing was announced there has more or less been a blanket line of no more incomings before sales are made (which went out of the window when Ronaldo was available).
A proper midfielder enables this team to play football. We were on the back foot against Wolves because we kept giving the ball away cheaply in midfield and Fred was the only line of defence against the likes of Traore and Trincao on the counter. Not entirely his fault, but Traore vs Fred was a complete mismatch and he lost out every time. A good midfielder prevents those issues before they've even happened. We couldn't break through the lines, we couldn't get Sancho, Fernandes or Greenwood on the ball. Fix that and we're suddenly a completely different proposition.
It is worth a try, but lots of idiots on here seem to think McTominay is no better than Mark Noble
Pogba doesn’t suit the “2” for me, even with Kante. We never seem to try Matic and McTominay together when it makes the most sense to me. Let Matic sit and dictate and let McTominay cover the ground.
We will surely sign a CM in January though when it becomes clear to everyone that there is a huge gap in quality there compared to the rest of our team
Yep and City create that many chances from other players that it's less costly in my opinion
Its Bruno playing as a CF we basically playing 4 2 4
Worth waiting a year for, definitely
Well he played the 2018 WC in a midfield 2,so he can do it if he has the right partner next to him.If we play 4-3-3 then we would be creating problems for Bruno...If Pogba keeps playing on the left,then we will have to drop either Sancho or Greenwood from the team.The best solution for the moment is to try a Pogba/Mctominay midfield...
Cavani is not leaving, he wants to stay at the club. All parties have confirmed as much.
You might be right but I'll say it again. What are you seeing that Ole and the coaching are not? This Fred and Scott situation is not new? I'm not saying we don't need one, just for me it's not the reason why we won't singularly succeed. Football is rarely a single issue, and that's often like sacking managers when the issue is with the board.
Still say, there is a issue with coaching....
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm also someone that has consistently said we need to play a higher defensive to compress the pitch and sacrifice defensive stability for goals. And that's something Bayern and Ajax have done extremely well hence me using players from those teams as examples. We haven't even come close to replicating Bayern's well oiled attacking machine which was a team that aggressively pressed high and had the like of Muller dropping deeper between the lines to provide a vertical pass option for the midfield to play off.
Asking Bruno to play with more discipline and dropping deeper doesn't mean we would be asking the whole team to drop deeper, because that can only happen if the opposition can infiltrate our defensive lines which would mean our CBs would have to retreat.
You're conflating movement between the lines which provide pass options for the back line and midfielders to sitting back and playing in a deep or midblock which have no correlation.
I believe Solskjaer and the coaching team do want a midfielder. It might not be the only weakness in the side but it's the biggest obstacle from turning this side from a 'good' side to a winning one.
It may well be that the coaching is deemed not good enough and the manager loses his job. We'll have to wait and see on that, but we've seen steady progression in the last 3 years. With that being the case I would've liked to see the board give the manager all the tools to go and finish the job, especially when we're so close, and it's disappointing that we're going into the season short of a key component.
If the last game hasn't confirmed it nothing will, but I'm not expecting one this window now. Hopefully Fred or McT will be able to hold the fort till we get one. Preferably both cause one isn't enough.
Plus its highly likely that United will only have Pogba for 1 more season. So the next midfield buy needs to be correct, and fix 2 problems with one signing.
Then why after spending 400 million on top of having Rashford, Shaw, De Gea, Fred, Pogba, and Mc Tominay at the club did Ole not sort this position. Shouldn't he be held accountable after such an outlay.
That's not really my point. My point is if it's such a key component as you say, why haven't they?
He should be. He won't be.
It's funny cause Ole's legacy in Molde is that he introduced a fluid, possession based style. Not by accident either. Of course it's a different level, but I wouldn't be so sure that Ole doesn't want to play a fluid passing game.
I think it comes down a lot to players available. To play that game in United, you need elite passers and movers. They're not easily available. And United doesn't really have those types. Not even the best players they have are fluid passers, like Pogba and Bruno. They do moments of brilliance and explosive attacks, not patiently tearing apart the defense.
If Ole keeps the job for years to come, I would be surprised if United won't play more patiently and fluidly as player material changes.
Probably because the money that should've gone towards that has instead gone on bringing Ronaldo back to the club. Got to scratch the Glazers PR itch.
MOTD analyse the static nature of our forwards which caused issues for our midfield and build up in general. Something quite a few of us recognised after the game yesterday.
Skip to 7 minutes.
Skip to 7 minutes.
We've seen with VdB and Lingard they've contributed absolutely nothing. We could have easily sold either or both and gotten Bissouma or Neves or Tchouameni and we would have had a better squad for it. Not getting getting midfielder isn't about not having funds. Its just complete neglection or ignorance
What’s he going to do? Hope and pray.
Fixed it for you.
No he didn't. Liverpool's midfield is very effective and dominated City. I am honestly lost for words and shocked there are people who don't see how good Liverpool's midfield was when they were doing well.
He should, but very few people are saying much. The Glazers are being blamed for not funding another player this summer. Last summer, Ole wasted £60m+ on players that he doesn't play. VDB, Amad, and Pellistri. A starting midfielder could have been bought with that money.
Do you think we'd win the title if we had Henderson and Milner in midfield? A good manager with sound tactics make the team play much better than they really are.
Jesus, you'd think our midfield options are absolute poverty looking at how they're talked about on here. We have Bruno, Pogba VdB, Fred, McTominay and Matic. Matic aside, those players have all played more than one role in midfield through the last few years and can quite confidently be described as multi-functional players.
I don't think it's outlandish to expect our coaching staff to make a functioning midfield out of those options whether we're playing a 2, 3 or 4. I'd hope we focus less on personnel for now and more on ensuring our options in midfield have more than one or two passing options at a time
I don't think it's outlandish to expect our coaching staff to make a functioning midfield out of those options whether we're playing a 2, 3 or 4. I'd hope we focus less on personnel for now and more on ensuring our options in midfield have more than one or two passing options at a time
We've needed a DM for a long time and we've always ignored it. This dates back to Ole's first season. Ole had success with Pogba as an 8 in a 4-3-3 in his interim period. I remember the transfer forums were buzzing for a deep lying playmaker to help Pogba creatively. What we did the following season was remove Pogba from his best position and put him in the double pivot in a 4-2-3-1. That decision was strange to me because it watered down the ability of our best player.
In another reality we would have continued with Pogba as an 8 in a 4-3-3 and bought a DM instead of Bruno. VdB will turn out useful because of this and I'll squad will also be balanced. This is just one instance we could have gotten a DM
Another instance is last summer when we got Van De Beek. How much of a necessity was it to get a back up AM when Bruno is always available and Pogba can fill in that role. In hindsight that VdB transfer was absolutely pointless and we should have gotten a DM instead. We could have easily rectified this situation by selling VdB this summer and use the funds to get a DM but we didn't. I think if we are one DM short of an elite side then Ole and his transfer team have themselves to blame because we've had opportunities to fill that role
In another reality we would have continued with Pogba as an 8 in a 4-3-3 and bought a DM instead of Bruno. VdB will turn out useful because of this and I'll squad will also be balanced. This is just one instance we could have gotten a DM
Another instance is last summer when we got Van De Beek. How much of a necessity was it to get a back up AM when Bruno is always available and Pogba can fill in that role. In hindsight that VdB transfer was absolutely pointless and we should have gotten a DM instead. We could have easily rectified this situation by selling VdB this summer and use the funds to get a DM but we didn't. I think if we are one DM short of an elite side then Ole and his transfer team have themselves to blame because we've had opportunities to fill that role
Exactly @Adnan , everybody could see it. That space is where Fernandes is supposed to be but because he is not press resistant, he doesnt trust himself to pick up that position. He has got to do better in the general play or else we will continue to play mediocre.
@roonster09 you can have a watch, almost everybody saw this as a problem except you.
AccurateFixed it for you.
He has to drop Bruno deeper. Play Pogba and one of Fred/McTominay/DVB (unlikely)
It's not outlandish to expect *a* coaching staff to make a functioning midfield out of these options. A hypothetical one.
Our actual coaching staff, on the other hand... For one, they seem to regard one of the options as not actually an option.
Doesn’t really look like much effort was put into signing a DM. Even when it was mentioned it was always as an afterthought and with no solid links really. I said before and I still think that he doesn’t see the problems there like most people do. He clearly thinks that Matic and McFred are fine for now…that, or he’s banking on just putting a load of firepower out there and hoping the defence can keep the goal tally down at the other end
DeGea
AWB Varane Maguire Shaw
Sancho Pogba Fernandes Rashford
Cavani Ronaldo
DeGea
AWB Varane Maguire Shaw
Sancho Pogba Fernandes Rashford
Cavani Ronaldo
Yeah next I will post what Pundit like Souness says about Pogba and post that as facts.
They are doing exactly same thing, few isolated incidents. I didn't say it didn't happen, I said it Didn't happen all the time. If those MOTD guys played the clip where Fred was in the box, you would have said we played 4-1-5.
I remember this game. We played 4-3-3 and Mctomina ywas the DM. He did well
We will agree to disagree mate, let's hope we get better as the season progresses but am not that hopeful.
Liverpool's midfield were excellent and suited the way their team played perfectly.
But the key point (I think) is that if you'd asked people a few years ago whether those midfielders would be good enough to lead Liverpool to PL and CLs the answer would be a resounding no.
That midfield ended up being excellent because the team was built and coached such that it played to their strengths and compensated for their weaknesses. Not because they suddenly became outstanding players.
In a different but related point, last season City were struggling for goals. So they adjusted tactically so that Gundogan (a DM who had scored 2 PL goals the previous season) became became more of a goal threat and, sure enough, he was their top goalscorer as they won the league.
Or you could look back at our last PL win. I clearly remember posters here saying at the start of that season that our midfield wasn't good enough for us to win the league. Yet we still managed it, even while a nothing player like Tom Cleverley started in half our PL games.
The point being that all teams have flaws and some have quite severe ones. But if you have high level management and coaching then you can adjust, compensate for and overcome those limitations. Elite sides don't go into every season thinking they have nowhere to improve.
But the key point (I think) is that if you'd asked people a few years ago whether those midfielders would be good enough to lead Liverpool to PL and CLs the answer would be a resounding no.
That midfield ended up being excellent because the team was built and coached such that it played to their strengths and compensated for their weaknesses. Not because they suddenly became outstanding players.
In a different but related point, last season City were struggling for goals. So they adjusted tactically so that Gundogan (a DM who had scored 2 PL goals the previous season) became became more of a goal threat and, sure enough, he was their top goalscorer as they won the league.
Or you could look back at our last PL win. I clearly remember posters here saying at the start of that season that our midfield wasn't good enough for us to win the league. Yet we still managed it, even while a nothing player like Tom Cleverley started in half our PL games.
The point being that all teams have flaws and some have quite severe ones. But if you have high level management and coaching then you can adjust, compensate for and overcome those limitations. Elite sides don't go into every season thinking they have nowhere to improve.
Yes but don't forget that Pogba was much deeper in the 2nd half. Most of the clips MoTD showed were of Pogba in the 'QB' position looking to make a Hollywood pass.
It's very hard for the attackers to move and create space when the ball is going to be travelling 50 yards in one pass. If you look at Pep's philosophy, the hundreds of short passes are designed to draw opponents to the ball, then you can make the big switch or the incisive through ball.
Trouble we have is that if you try to play Tika-Taka with the likes of Fred and AWB, you're going to lose the ball in your own half on a regular basis
This is going to be mentioned as "just one point of the match" but this happened quite a lot against Wolves and have been a problem whenever we played Pogba in midfield 2. If Bruno does not become part of Midfield 3 and stop playing as false 9, expect quite a lot of team to expose our midfield. It's not that Bruno didn't drop deep, it's just that he didn't have the discipline to maintain the numerical advantage in midfield when we were defending.
Just look at the video, it's always 2 vs 3 in Midfield when Pogba had the ball. No other option but to play long ball. It's fine when we are attacking, but we were exposed whenever he had to defend with that disadvantage.