Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

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Bebestation

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40 players have left United since Ole has come.

Great stuff.

It's the only reason I'm a bit patient with him.

Few more players I wouldn't mind seeing leave.

At the same time,

Few more gaps and gains I can see covered in the January or Summer transfer window - and then Ole your time is up.

I get that he isn't a trophy winner - but I do believe he is a United supporter with United at his heart who has managed United and got it back to a near perfect level. I'd just rather he finish building it up to that 95% perfect level rather than that 85% type feeling it currently is at now. As I say maybe that can be done by the January transfer window for the impatient and the summer for the patient.

Trophies for me will come. I'd rather win Trophies continues for a decade than win a trophy once every 4 years. I feel like we are getting closer to that - so I am patient.
 

hobbers

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So, even if you look at points gained by subs metric here, I'd say, Ole has done pretty well
Ole's included assists as well as goals.

But regardless, none of these stats take into account how badly we start matches and how often compared with City and Liverpool we went a goal or two down last season, and therefore our subs were more often brought on to change the game rather than just see it out. The West Ham and Southampton games last season are famous examples of how poor we are at starting games.

This is basically the same false premise in the 'criticism is encouraged' thread. Ole is criticised for being poor at in game management, "but look at how often we lost the first goal and came back to rescue points last season - so he cant be bad at game management"... well, is that a measure of how much Ole improves us with tactical tweaks and subs in the latter part of games, or is it actually just a reflection of how poorly we start?
 

Sviken

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Not jumping to Mourinho defence? I was never asked about Mourinho but as I kept reading your response you mentioned tumescent football. The irony on wanting to defend Mourinho and complaining about the football under Ole is nuts. Oles football for United has been much better.
I never compared Ole's football to Mourinho's, all I'm saying is that we aren't playing pretty football under Ole either. We have short spells of 10-20 minutes in every match of actual football and then 80 min of shakiness in which we're not even able to string simple passes, let alone dominate the other team.

Up until the start of this season, Mourinho had a much better team thanOle, so I dont agree Jose has a worse squad. He signed his two CBs, two CDMs, Sanchez, Mkhi, Pogba and of course Lukaku and Zlatan. Let's not pretend he was playing with a poor squad.
That's not true, is it? Ole had Maguire, Jose had Rojo, Ole has Bruno, Jose had Fellaini. Ole has AWB (with all his faults) while Jose had Darmian. Ole has a world class stacked squad while Mourinho had four players that were remotely of this level - Pogba, De Gea, Lukaku and Zlatan. The rest of the squad was Fred-tier. And Jose didn't sign shit, he kept imploring the club repeatedly to sign his players but they refused. Remember the whole Perisic/Martial debacle? Well, the club fecked him on that too. I'm not defending Jose, but to say he has had a better squad than Ole is absurd.

The conte argument is a joke too. 5 at the back football, no thank you AND also let's not forget earlier in Conte's career he had many failures and disappointments. WE are in the 3rd full season of Oles reign and he has done nothing to warrant such crazy write offs.
400+ million, three seasons... how much time and money does Ole need before he is judged of anything? That's what I wanna know? 5-10, 20 years?

I do however know we won't agree with each other as I find some of your points laughable, and you probably do with mine. But IF we finish poorly this year in the premiership and we show no progress or challenge, I am with you, his position should be considered. I am not here to LOVE ole just for sentimental reasons, I am here because I have seen him do a better job than those before him bar SAF and show a sign of moving forward each year.
What does "poor" mean to you? Because poor to me means top 4 with no challenge on any front. To you it may mean mid-table or something.

If he challenges though, it'll be the same arguments from Ole-outers. He should have won the league, he should have won the UCL or they'll pull a random game he didn't get the tactics right to call for his head like people tried with Poch earlier. Its just conte now, and it'll be someone else next year.
No, my expectations are simple. If he challenges and the team shows good progress in terms of football, I'll back him for one more season. But if we do nothing with this squad and 400 million, 3 years spent, surely questions must be asked?

I dont think players of Ronaldo stature and Varane would come to work with him if they didn't believe in what they saw from Uniteds progress and Ole and his vision and that gives me enough confidence. Let's agree to disagree and pick up in May ;)
I am genuinely asking you: do you really think Varane and Ronaldo came because of Ole? I don't think so. The reality is that the club still has enough status and financial pull to get almost any player in the world. But that too has its limits. The more we fall behind from our rivals, the more we lose in terms of revenue and stature and soon even the United name won't carry any meaning. We're not financed by a sugar daddy, every penny we pay for a player comes from the club's profits. And that is why we cannot allow a 20 years rebuild.
 

Isotope

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But I want us to pass in nice neat triangles! I don't care about us winning! I want goddamn triangles! I don't give a shit that we've got the highest amount of goals scored this season in the PL. I want those fecking triangles and I want them right now!
We know that football is not just about result. Might as well just see the final score, or even better, just see the League table on May.

A good play will most likely gives good result. And in the long-term, this is more sustainable than scrapping the win through mostly individual players quality. SAF maintained domination through a good play, not by just stacking 80+m players. For a start, I've never seen any top teams in the past and current who can't maintain possession as badly as us now.
 

mav_9me

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Vdb is on him, but so is Cavani, Varane, AWB, Maguire, Ronaldo, Sancho. He generally makes decent signings.

You could argue, although no-one truly knows VDB may have been a "pogba" replacement possibly? But then again, in his very limited game time (I like him) he hasn't really done anything to show he can play CM in a 2 man midfield or holding and he is never moving bruno or pogba based on their form.

I am pretty sure he wants to strengthen the midfield, its evident but we wanted Sancho last year and we was crying for a partner for Maguire this year. Letting Ronaldo go to City would have been a joke, so I think he did what could.
We are not talking about his general work in the transfer market though.

We are talking about the CM situation. You haven't answered why he couldn't sell VdB and Lingard to buy a CM?
 

Raven

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We know that football is not just about result. Might as well just see the final score, or even better, just see the League table on May.

A good play will most likely gives good result. And in the long-term, this is more sustainable than scrapping the win through mostly individual players quality. SAF maintained domination through a good play, not by just stacking 80+m players. For a start, I've never seen any top teams in the past and current who can't maintain possession as badly as us now.
Interesting. Because we actually have the second highest average possession in the league so far.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/ballbesitz/wettbewerb/GB1
 

anant

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Ole's included assists as well as goals.

But regardless, none of these stats take into account how badly we start matches and how often compared with City and Liverpool we went a goal or two down last season, and therefore our subs were more often brought on to change the game rather than just see it out. The West Ham and Southampton games last season are famous examples of how poor we are at starting games.

This is basically the same false premise in the 'criticism is encouraged' thread. Ole is criticised for being poor at in game management, "but look at how often we lost the first goal and came back to rescue points last season - so he cant be bad at game management"... well, is that a measure of how much Ole improves us with tactical tweaks and subs in the latter part of games, or is it actually just a reflection of how poorly we start?
Not sure if I agree with this conclusion. We're looking at points won by subs - which is a better indicator of how personnel changes have helped us.

For looking at how poorly we start the game, I'd much rather rely on metrics like % of games where we went behind. And while that stat would look pretty poor, let's not take credit away from Ole around the fact that his subs have changed the game state more often than most managers.
 

D. Mungai

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40 players have left United since Ole has come.

Great stuff.

It's the only reason I'm a bit patient with him.

Few more players I wouldn't mind seeing leave.

At the same time,

Few more gaps and gains I can see covered in the January or Summer transfer window - and then Ole your time is up.

I get that he isn't a trophy winner - but I do believe he is a United supporter with United at his heart who has managed United and got it back to a near perfect level. I'd just rather he finish building it up to that 95% perfect level rather than that 85% type feeling it currently is at now. As I say maybe that can be done by the January transfer window for the impatient and the summer for the patient.

Trophies for me will come. I'd rather win Trophies continues for a decade than win a trophy once every 4 years. I feel like we are getting closer to that - so I am patient.
100% on point.

The biggest and best proposition about Ole is
"if it clicks, we have more than 20 more years of him at the helm"
This alone is such a great incentive to support him.

We just have to cross our fingers it clicks, if we start winning titles, we won't be looking to change managers every 7 years ( for a winning manager) or 3 years for a non successful manager.

We should all rally behind him, it will take time but eventually it will fall into place. Then we will have a Fergie 2.0 in longevity.
 

Ramshock

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40 players have left United since Ole has come.

Great stuff.

It's the only reason I'm a bit patient with him.

Few more players I wouldn't mind seeing leave.

At the same time,

Few more gaps and gains I can see covered in the January or Summer transfer window - and then Ole your time is up.

I get that he isn't a trophy winner - but I do believe he is a United supporter with United at his heart who has managed United and got it back to a near perfect level. I'd just rather he finish building it up to that 95% perfect level rather than that 85% type feeling it currently is at now. As I say maybe that can be done by the January transfer window for the impatient and the summer for the patient.

Trophies for me will come. I'd rather win Trophies continues for a decade than win a trophy once every 4 years. I feel like we are getting closer to that - so I am patient.
The only reason you are a bit patient with him.

I find this pandering to the ole out mob pathetic if I am quite honest.
 

RedSky

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We know that football is not just about result. Might as well just see the final score, or even better, just see the League table on May.

A good play will most likely gives good result. And in the long-term, this is more sustainable than scrapping the win through mostly individual players quality. SAF maintained domination through a good play, not by just stacking 80+m players. For a start, I've never seen any top teams in the past and current who can't maintain possession as badly as us now.
How long do you think this has been an issue for? Our long term results have been pretty damn good in the league under Ole. Are you talking about performances this season?
 

NZT-One

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Yep maybe play a team with Matic, Sancho and Lingard in the start instead of McFred. But we don’t see that do we. We also have Donny, Mata, Pogba and Martial. There’s plenty of players capable of playing good football but we choose to set up pragmatic and deliver crap football. But show u a clip where we string a couple passes together. Make us believe our 1 minute pump is the same as City’s or Liverpool’s 60 min drilling.
Matic played how many minutes? At the end of the game, didn't he? I mean fair enough, he did well and he is easily a better passer than any of our other CM options (Pogba not included) and Ole did very well for bringing him on the pitch to gain control but this is pretty unfair criticism. Imagine Matic playing the whole time, way more time to get easily ran rings around, watching players run away from him whatsoever. Matic ain't a solution anymore. And one particularly good action shouldn't make us forget all the issues we have with him.

Shameful making him lie like that.
Hardly any evidence for anything isn't it? The quote isn't even about training. It is about talking after the matches. So how do you take it as evidence against anything related to training. Also, wasn't the consensus that training isn't on him because he delegates it?

Ole and his team might be even great in training sessions, but it seems like other coaches are at least also great plus they get some stuff done, that helps their team in a certain way.

We know that football is not just about result. Might as well just see the final score, or even better, just see the League table on May.

A good play will most likely gives good result. And in the long-term, this is more sustainable than scrapping the win through mostly individual players quality. SAF maintained domination through a good play, not by just stacking 80+m players. For a start, I've never seen any top teams in the past and current who can't maintain possession as badly as us now.
Good post. I agree.

Interesting. Because we actually have the second highest average possession in the league so far.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/ballbesitz/wettbewerb/GB1
Never let facts get in the way of an already decided conclusion
Guys, a possession stat only shows who had the ball for how long. When there is a debate about us being very upgradable in possession, it is about what we use the possession for. Also it isn't very hard to have good possession when most teams will surrender the ball to you to lure you into their half to counter then. It was our strategy for a while when everybody still expected a mourinho-style United side who was prone to a having a go at. As most stats, it should be obvious that it shouldn't be looked at in isolation and some stats make more sense to be applied to individual matches than on groups of matches.

With LVG we were great at having high numbers in possession stats, nobody wants that, am I right? The art of possession is keeping it against the will of the opponent and using it to generate goal chances. And that is definitely not our strong suit.
 

Raven

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Matic played how many minutes? At the end of the game, didn't he? I mean fair enough, he did well and he is easily a better passer than any of our other CM options (Pogba not included) and Ole did very well for bringing him on the pitch to gain control but this is pretty unfair criticism. Imagine Matic playing the whole time, way more time to get easily ran rings around, watching players run away from him whatsoever. Matic ain't a solution anymore. And one particularly good action shouldn't make us forget all the issues we have with him.


Hardly any evidence for anything isn't it? The quote isn't even about training. It is about talking after the matches. So how do you take it as evidence against anything related to training. Also, wasn't the consensus that training isn't on him because he delegates it?

Ole and his team might be even great in training sessions, but it seems like other coaches are at least also great plus they get some stuff done, that helps their team in a certain way.


Good post. I agree.




Guys, a possession stat only shows who had the ball for how long. When there is a debate about us being very upgradable in possession, it is about what we use the possession for. Also it isn't very hard to have good possession when most teams will surrender the ball to you to lure you into their half to counter then. It was our strategy for a while when everybody still expected a mourinho-style United side who was prone to a having a go at. As most stats, it should be obvious that it shouldn't be looked at in isolation and some stats make more sense to be applied to individual matches than on groups of matches.

With LVG we were great at having high numbers in possession stats, nobody wants that, am I right? The art of possession is keeping it against the will of the opponent and using it to generate goal chances. And that is definitely not our strong suit.
No. He specifically said maintaining possession. I agree that we can and should speed up our use of the ball, but that's a different discussion.
 

NZT-One

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No. He specifically said maintaining possession. I agree that we can and should speed up our use of the ball, but that's a different discussion.
Ok fair enough, I haven't understood it initially as restrictive as you but now you mention it, I see where you are coming from. Wouldn't be to suprised if he didn't meant to be so specific.
 

Isotope

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Matic played how many minutes? At the end of the game, didn't he? I mean fair enough, he did well and he is easily a better passer than any of our other CM options (Pogba not included) and Ole did very well for bringing him on the pitch to gain control but this is pretty unfair criticism. Imagine Matic playing the whole time, way more time to get easily ran rings around, watching players run away from him whatsoever. Matic ain't a solution anymore. And one particularly good action shouldn't make us forget all the issues we have with him.


Hardly any evidence for anything isn't it? The quote isn't even about training. It is about talking after the matches. So how do you take it as evidence against anything related to training. Also, wasn't the consensus that training isn't on him because he delegates it?

Ole and his team might be even great in training sessions, but it seems like other coaches are at least also great plus they get some stuff done, that helps their team in a certain way.


Good post. I agree.




Guys, a possession stat only shows who had the ball for how long. When there is a debate about us being very upgradable in possession, it is about what we use the possession for. Also it isn't very hard to have good possession when most teams will surrender the ball to you to lure you into their half to counter then. It was our strategy for a while when everybody still expected a mourinho-style United side who was prone to a having a go at. As most stats, it should be obvious that it shouldn't be looked at in isolation and some stats make more sense to be applied to individual matches than on groups of matches.

With LVG we were great at having high numbers in possession stats, nobody wants that, am I right? The art of possession is keeping it against the will of the opponent and using it to generate goal chances. And that is definitely not our strong suit.
I don’t think it needs to be spell out like this. But it seems like people just like winning argument by nitpicking.

Us when under pressure, we can’t maintain possession. It’s an obvious observation that don’t need stats. Possession when the opponent let you have the ball or just aimless recycle stats are useless. What the feck do we need to include that stats on how well we maintain possession?

But heyho…
 
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Olecurls99

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I agree with us being in a very challenging league. But the poster asked for trophies, not necessarily the premier ship. I agree with you, over a season, it is very difficult and it factors in being lucky in some situations where your opponents are not. So no debate about PL, almost no debate about CL because it is the best teams in Europe, but trophies are attainable elsewhere as well.
I think, it isn't the right thing to just ignore FA or EFL cup, it is silverware. Same goes for EL. We should challenge in the league and for these cups and if the season ends on a high note in the league and we will have one new pot in the cabinet, people won't be as fickle as they are today. Last season we could have had some silverware. But we were denied by Villareal, Leicester and City (2 times). Only one team belongs to the top4. What sticked out last year weren't tense fights against the Big Four where they were just a fraction better than we were. It was matches against smaller and small teams.

With our 8 year absence, I think, it doesn't shine a good light on people who are smug about potential trophies. I agree, Ole needs some silverware or very very good explanations for their absence (like bringing a weakened squad in FA semi final because focus on league game and then losing out on the league on the last two matchdays or something). I was pretty disappointed after Leicester and Villareal, that shouldn't be accepted in the same fashion again.
I don't think any United fan would be satisfied with the FA Cup, League Cup or Europa league. They're fine to win but as Louis and Jose found out, the only true barometer of success at United is how you do in the league.

I completely agree with Ole prioritising league matches over Cup matches. Winning one of the smaller cups would stop the 'can't get it over the line' rubbish but the league is the be all and end all.
 

Isotope

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How long do you think this has been an issue for? Our long term results have been pretty damn good in the league under Ole. Are you talking about performances this season?
It’s been an on going problem. Our possession is easily crumbled under pressure.

For instance, you see that under SAF, we could see out games (when we need to) by maintaining possession. And that’s the basic standard of top teams.
 

Raven

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Ok fair enough, I haven't understood it initially as restrictive as you but now you mention it, I see where you are coming from. Wouldn't be to suprised if he didn't meant to be so specific.
He responded to me in a manner that would suggest he did.
 

Dve

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Exactly. Tactically nothing different, we're a mess.

I just want to enjoy the win.

When he manages a game well I'll say it.
We are so lucky to have you, the one knowledgeable enough to teach us about tactics. And stuff.
 

NZT-One

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I don't think any United fan would be satisfied with the FA Cup, League Cup or Europa league. They're fine to win but as Louis and Jose found out, the only true barometer of success at United is how you do in the league.

I completely agree with Ole prioritising league matches over Cup matches. Winning one of the smaller cups would stop the 'can't get it over the line' rubbish but the league is the be all and end all.
I am sure we would find some common ground on this topic. I mean, with our squad it shouldn't be either or, wouldn't you agree?

At the end of the day, this is pretty contextual, in case of injuries, stacked schedules, things obviously change but that is a given for me anyway. While League is bread and butter, we should do our best to get a cup and do so by putting good teams out there that are comfortably expected to win under normal circumstances. (That is something I wasn't so happy about last year, in some of the cup games we were so dysfunctional that nothing worked so in the end we had to sub on Rashford, Pogba and Bruno to get us something, I'd favor it the opposite way and have a comfortable team with a plan of starting strong and see a game out later on.)
 

Bilbo

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Guys, a possession stat only shows who had the ball for how long. When there is a debate about us being very upgradable in possession, it is about what we use the possession for
We've used that possession to score 13 goals in 5 games.

Can it be used better at times? Yes

Is this debate about our use of the ball going over the top? Yes

How this has evolved over time is that, when we weren't getting consistent results, the narrative was that this is a results business. Now that we are getting more consistent results, the narrative is that this means little without the performances to match. For many of our fans, it's simply a desire for improvement, which is understandable, but for many others it's simply part of the ongoing agenda. We do not need to be talking about our manager this much
 

Olecurls99

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I am sure we would find some common ground on this topic. I mean, with our squad it shouldn't be either or, wouldn't you agree?

At the end of the day, this is pretty contextual, in case of injuries, stacked schedules, things obviously change but that is a given for me anyway. While League is bread and butter, we should do our best to get a cup and do so by putting good teams out there that are comfortably expected to win under normal circumstances. (That is something I wasn't so happy about last year, in some of the cup games we were so dysfunctional that nothing worked so in the end we had to sub on Rashford, Pogba and Bruno to get us something, I'd favor it the opposite way and have a comfortable team with a plan of starting strong and see a game out later on.)
Oh yeah. I think we have a good enough second team that we can give it a good go in each cup.
 

Raveneye

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If we have both the most possession and the most goals scored in the Premier League so far (granted a small sample size of games), we're probably something right in terms of coaching. We play with people like Bruno, Pogba, Rashford and Ronaldo. Losing the ball through attempted trickery or Hollywood passes is part of our game.

We've conceded more than I'd like, granted. A CDM would shore that up, but a bunch of the goals have been wonder goals or just weird circumstances that no amount of training can fully prevent. And De Gea is starting to look like his prime again.
 

Womp

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There are very clearly aspects of the game we could and should be better at - retaining posession when pressed, controlling games, increasing the speed we use the ball and move it around at, pressing and movement off the ball etc. but we've got off to a very solid start to the season, even if the performances haven't been the best. If he's built a team that is capable of winning him major silverware even if his coaching ability very clearly isn't of the same level as Pep, Klopp, Tuchel etc. then he has still succeeded imo. More than one way to skin a cat and all that.

Given the football we play though, results are all we really have to put our faith in now - so if he doesn't continue getting results, could go south very quickly. As long as he is, regardless of his approach, he's doing well.

I'm sure he's aware that the pressure on him this season given the investment and time is huge, so hopefully he delivers and proves myself and others wrong.
 

captaincantona

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If we have both the most possession and the most goals scored in the Premier League so far (granted a small sample size of games), we're probably something right in terms of coaching.
The volume of repetition this arguement gets along with “we finished second last season and got to a final so we must be well coached” is really silly to me. It’s as if no one had a telly and we just look at stats on livescore after each game and say...we must be good!

We all have eyes. I presume we all watched every game last season and this season. Name me games in that period which we played well...you know...where afterward you said...Jesus we were good today. We have played 66 times I think. I can count Leeds twice, Southampton, once against City, 3-2 against pool in the FA Cup, RB and PSG in the CL and Sociadad and Roma in the EL. That’s 9 good/top performances for me - out of 66.

I remember watching those other 57 matches and not feeling like I’d watched good performances over all. So why would I then just look at the possession stats, shots on goal, goals scored and convince my own eyes they were wrong as the stats say we must be a good football team? I saw the matches so I don’t need Contextless metrics to correct my opinions.

I love Utd, I love Ole, I don’t like how we play football most of the time. It’s slow, we often lack intensity and we ride our luck. I happen to believe that could be corrected by better coaching in the same way we have tried to correct our set piece play( early days but looking better).

just cause someone doesn’t like how we have been playing doesn’t make them a glory hunter, fair weather, tactical bullshitter, coaching gimp, internet fan or whatever other names you lads sling at them around here.
 
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Kush

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Ole didn't get a new contract to stop him from being poached. There are human elements at play here. You need stability at the top of the organisation so if the club feel that the squad is in safe hands, which clearly they do, then a new contract is a complete no-brainer.
You're talking as if he was out of contract. He still had an year left on his deal. Questions regarding his ability to win silverware are genuine, whether you like it or not. Club could’ve been more prudent and waited until half-way point to gauge how we are going before handing him a new deal. This renewal was pre-mature just like the original one. There’s no guarantee Ole would’ve got full-time job in the first place, if we had waited until season was finished in 2019.

This is all a moot point because I’ve said in my previous post, our club is content with CL football and there isn’t an emphasis on winning silverware. So, Ole is their man which is evident by them handing him a 4 year deal before a ball was even kicked.
 

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The volume of repetition this arguement gets along with “we finished second last season and got to a final so we must be well coached” is really silly to me. It’s as if no one had a telly and we just look at stats on livescore after each game and say...we must be good!

We all have eyes. I presume we all watched every game last season and this season. Name me games in that period which we played well...you know...where afterward you said...Jesus we were good today. We have played 66 times I think. I can count Leeds twice, Southampton, once against City, 3-2 against pool in the FA Cup, RB and PSG in the CL and Sociadad and Roma in the EL. That’s 9 good/top performances for me - out of 66.

I remember watching those other 57 matches and not feeling like I’d watched good performances over all. So why would I then just look at the possession stats, shots on goal, goals scored and convince my own eyes they were wrong as the stats say we must be a good football team? I saw the matches so I don’t need Contextless metrics to correct my opinions.

I love Utd, I love Ole, I don’t like how we play football most of the time. It’s slow, we often lack intensity and we ride our luck. I happen to believe that could be corrected by better coaching in the same way we have tried to correct our set piece play( early days but looking better).

just cause someone doesn’t like how we have been playing doesn’t make them a glory hunter, fair weather, tactical bullshitter, coaching gimp, internet fan or whatever other names you lads sling at them around here.
You thought we played at a much higher level than many of our performances under Ole in the match against Leeds this season?

It's there a reason for that other than the scoreline?
 
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