So just abandon the idea that there should be a left wing party at all?
Keir Starmer Labour Leader
- Thread starter Damien
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I am referring to the next election.
It was a defeat wasn't it.
That would depend how you defined "recent"... I mean blair won 3 not that long ago in the grand scheme of things
That said 2017 was certainly the worst conservative campaign I can remember - the malfunctioning Maybot, dementia tax and Farrage et all taking the most brexity of brexit voters ... no matter how much Boris screws up I find it hard to believe the conservatives are going to be as bad as they were in 2017 again
In my opinion, yes, the UK (and US) electoral systems dictate that parties need to be broad coalitions to win power. This effectively means centre-left vs centre-right, in macro terms.
Now, that doesn't mean that if you are a true left-winger (or right-winger) you should give up the dream, it just means you have to move the effective centre over time. In practical terms, I think it necessitates focussing on one or two radical policies you want to see, and then relentlessly campaigning for them until they become part of the party platform. That's what the eurosceptic half of the Tory party did for twenty years, until they achieved their stupid Brexit dream.
Well that is what Labour are doing anyway but rather than the pretence of unity Biden went with Mandelson and his ilk have gone as they seem to be referring to it 'Kinnock style' to purge and attack.
By all accounts MPs from both sides in Labour don't think Starmer is doing a good job or going to win. So it's not about winning as they claimed it's just about purging.
No ideas other than old tricks long past their time.
But that surely depends on the idea that the US democratic party are left of centre, which I don't think they are.
Bring back the man who oversaw the worst electoral defeat in almost a century?
Yeah, Keir must be doing pretty badly
The centre ground of US politics is (unfortunately) further to the right than you imagine.
I'm only looking at the Labour Party from afar, I'm not a member or even a British Citizen, but I'm still grieving over Corbyn. In a way it seems as if the Labour Party are only allowed prevail if they don't go as far left as to be actual socialists, which defeats the purpose in my opinion and dilutes further the idea of Democracy. It's like liberal is acceptable, but anything left at all is just not tolerated.
Worst campaign for sure. But they started from a relatively high point, which is of course why the election was called.
I'm not sure that Johnson will have that luxury.
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What's the betting most of those in the negative percentages are those on the hard left being booted out of the party? Still makes up less of the overall feedback from his speeches.
Says a lot though that I'm still 50/50 as to whether he'll remain leader for the next GE or whether he is there only for the purpose of purging and restructuring the party. Plus, not sure a whole lot of what he said can be disagreeable to most people
I would say yes... until there is a majority left wing electorate!
Another ten years of Boris, should begin to tip the balance.
If he does, (say in his record breaking next ten years) then he loses, but you are quite right the Tory inner circle will have dispatched Boris well before then, or he might get fed up and fall on his sword..... yes you are right too much to hope for!
I think that will just skew the discourse and you'll end up like the US where people think the Dems and CNN are on the left.
To the left of right wing demagogues is not actually 'left'.
Who did he pick?
1966 & 2021 England squads and the British army.
Ah right… going for the ‘working class vote’… can’t blame him I guess, though does seem a bit silly.
As was 2010 and 2015, which was the point of my earlier post.
Who did the survey? Who did they ask? Just looks like a standalone twitter statement with no data?
Looks like he's doing well compared to his opposite number!
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/is-boris-johnson-incompetent
Do you really trust a poll whose results are ready a few hours after the event it is polling took place? The tweet doesn't give any further information, which is a very bad sign for it. I wouldn't be remotely surprised to find that it was some random online poll.
https://news.sky.com/story/starmer-...ur-leader-according-to-sky-news-poll-12421477
Opinium surveyed 1,330 people online this afternoon, showing them excerpts of the speech before asking them to vote.
Opinium surveyed 1,330 people online this afternoon, showing them excerpts of the speech before asking them to vote.
Left or Right in politics always depends upon where you are standing when you make the observation.
For me Boris is neither committed right or left, he's a politician normally 'running on empty' and he needs and is always seeking a 'cause' to hang his hat on. Whether it was in running for Mayor of London, or leadership of the Tories. Up to him gaining office as PM he could choose his cause, it wasn't Brexit originally, but he adopted it, in order to save the Tories from annihilation from Nigel Farage and UKIP not because he believed in it.
Boris's life expectancy as PM has, I believe, been (somewhat confusingly) extended by Covid, because as the 'johnny on the spot' PM his efforts have been generally accepted by a grateful public because he was 'deemed to doing his best' and now would not be the time to rock the boat. This something belatedly Starmer has begun to understand and realise it gives him chance to do some blood-letting in the Labour party, so when facing the next election he doesn't need to be continuously looking over his shoulder .... but admittedly the jury is still out on that!
Boris's dilemma going forward is that in perhaps trying to enhance his personal legacy, he will make a desperate bid to become the first UK PM to champion serious political change in pursuit of Climate Change goals, starting at the COP. However Boris also has made great play of 'leveling up' especially outside the South East, but achieving the Climate change goals he wants and doing the right amount of 'leveling up' to ensure the red wall voters stay with the Tories, will be almost impossible, he cannot succeed with both aims.
Hence the space between the two stools, of his own making, will become ever wider for Boris until it he either, takes a nose dive by accident, or falls on his sword, or like Caesar should have done, "beware the ides of March".
Meanwhile Starmer has to quietly set about convincing a normally slightly right of centre electorate, that he knows whats wanted and it lies to 'the left'.
Yeah, agreed. Winning the next general election would be an uphill task no matter who the leader was.
Unfortunately it looks like Starmer has reversed further down the hill, although as I think you may have already said when we have talked about this in the past, to those on the labour right that's acceptable provided he fulfils his main task of sidelining the left and getting the party back under the firm control of sensible centrist managers like Peter Mandelson.
To a degree it's relative, and everything is nuanced but there are principles and policies that have definite left or right wing characteristics. One can get confused with the media noise in any given moment, but if you pan out the left /right dichotomy is not that complicated. Think of historical figures, it's never that cryptic to ascertain their political agenda. As a rabid left winger, I can say without hesitation that Boris is not in any shape or from left wing, neither socially nor economically.
Anyway, my main concern with the Labour Party is that I worry about their relevance. As a milder version of the Tories I think they are an impediment to proper social reform.
I also worry with regard to Corbyn's treatment (and the Saunders Super Tuesday debacle) that Social Democracy will never actually achieve anything of note along the lines of The Master's Tools Will Never Dismantle the Master's House.
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I could introduce you to a few dyed-in-the-wool Tories who would give you an argument on that!
Do you think that is what Starmer is planning?
If the GE was to be called in say a couple of months time, you might expect the 'watered down' version to be rolled out by Labour, but surely to shift the Tories will require something more radical. In my opinion Labour has to go back to the great ideas of the post WW2 era, the Education Reform Act the NHS Act etc. but unlike the last GE this should be one or two 'great ideas' at a time and they should be focused on changing the future not not just the status quo. Labour made a great start at the last election and was actually beginning to influence a more radical debate, then Corbyn and Co. went off the rails started promising everything... and all at once. People who might have listened turned away shaking their heads and in red wall constituencies especially, held their noses and voted for the Tories, promising themselves it was only... this once.
IMO above all else Labour has to rise above left or right politics and precious beliefs (no matter how strongly held) and put something to the country that people can believe in, that makes sense, for now and the future, but above everything is seen to be 'doable' and where the vision of a promised land is viable only if someone can produce a route map.
I think it could only be dyed-in-the-wool Tories that could argue left wing status for Boris in fairness.
I think that's why Starmer was chosen. Internal Labour Party politics are killing the party. Again, I'm quite removed, but from what I saw Corbyn brought a lot of lefties back into the fold after the New Labour Torying and Starmer was chosen not just to replace Corbyn, but that renewed move to the left. I'm not sure they did promise everything quite so much as address the issues. Again. I only engaged in overviews, being a forriner.
I don't really understand how you can rise above the political spectrum, that's some sort of end of history type aspiration? I think regardless of your political affiliation, a dialogue across the spectrum is essential.
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Talk about reading a room
I dont think he's a great leader but he's the only one available who recognises the broad outline of where labour went wrong under Corbyn. I'd like to see labour as a broadly centre left social democratic Party and not a revolutionary socialist one, because I think that's where you can build an electoral coalition.
Ok. Just to be clear, my post was all about Starmer and his chances of winning a GE for Labour.
My view exactly.
I don't share all this doom and gloom about Labour. Politics tends to be cyclic and I am really hopeful that the veneer of Boris is getting pretty thin.
As a life long Labour voter, I was getting close to putting my X elsewhere because of my distrust of Corbyn and the direction the party was moving.
In the end I stuck with the party.
I certainly don't have the same concerns about Starmer.
Whether Labour can actually win the next election remains to be seen. But I am more optimistic than for a long time.
There was nothing revolutionary about anything Corbyn proposed. Its the same in the US, they are not radicals for wanting people in such a powerful economy to have food, shelter and housing.
Corbyn and Sanders' fiscal policies are to the right of the elected governments in the 1940s in Britain and the US. FDR had an upper tax bracket north of 90%.
How old are you do you mind me asking?
No you wouldn't, you're an oddly-obsessed-with-the-left centre-right in the political compass if ever I saw one. Like if Mandelson wasn't motivated by money and power
Yet Starmer seems to be mirroring the Labour platforms from 2010 and 2015 (to a lesser extent). Actually going even more right wing.
I can see words strung together here but I'm damned if I can understand the point you are making.No you wouldn't, you're an oddly-obsessed-with-the-left centre-right in the political compass if ever I saw one. Like if Mandelson wasn't motivated by money and power