Mauricio Amadaeus Pochettino | Chelsea sack watch

[Bekkalokk]

Where does this narrative comes from? I mean can people at least elaborate on this bit since it gets brought up a lot but it's yet to be explained to people why Poch has reached his potential and has shown everything he has to show while Ten Hag is this guy with a ridiculously high ceiling compared to Poch. I mean is there anything substantial to prove that or at least explain it.

It's weird, especially considering Pochettino took a Spurs-team not much stronger than this Ajax-team, to a CL-final.

 

[L1nk]

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Surely it has to be concluded that nobody really knows what's going on here, briefs and false reporting all over the place

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

What if the board knows that too and thinks "why should we pay £10m when PSG want it as much as us?"

Then it becomes a waiting game with United being the biggest losers, again.

 

[JPRouve]

We have different outlooks on it. I believe Poch did a fantastic job and overachieved. He would go to the highest ever PL finish one season, and then beat that record the following year. He made them established CL quality and displaced Arsenal when no one ever thought that would happen.

We do have a different outlook. And Arsenal displaced themselves, we are not going to pretend that it had anything to do with Pochettino. From 15/16, Arsenal had terrible transfer windows and plummeted.

 

[RashyGiggsy]

Why is everyone, pundits included, so confident that Pochettino will succeed? I am not overly impressed with his CV. He had one good year at Tottenham, and PSG is in Ligue 1, which is not exactly the most difficult football league to win. He took over a PSG team that has either won or finished second in Ligue 1 for each of the past 11 years. And now, he has Messi along with Neymar and Mbappe.

Is Poch going to come in to United and clean house like Van Gaal or Mourinho did - in a desire to create his own team? Ole, for all his faults, did a good job of building a solid base.

I am more intrigued by Erik ten Hag. For one, Ajax, like United has an excellent youth system that brings players through into the senior team. Ten Hag is accustomed to this. I feel better about a manager that will build with a solid foundation, rather than bring in big names. Plus, ten Hag has stuck around and succeeded everywhere he has managed, whereas Pochettino has only really succeeded where he has stumbled into good situations that already existed. I'm just not sold on Pochettino.

 

[JPRouve]

What if the board knows that too and thinks "why should we pay £10m when PSG want it as much as us?"

PSG don't know it, so it would be surprising if United does.

 

[charlenefan]

Why is everyone, pundits included, so confident that Pochettino will succeed? I am not overly impressed with his CV. He had one good year at Tottenham, and PSG is in Ligue 1, which is not exactly the most difficult football league to win. He took over a PSG team that has either won or finished second in Ligue 1 for each of the past 11 years. And now, he has Messi along with Neymar and Mbappe.

Is Poch going to come in to United and clean house like Van Gaal or Mourinho did - in a desire to create his own team? Ole, for all his faults, did a good job of building a solid base.

I am more intrigued by Erik ten Hag. For one, Ajax, like United has an excellent youth system that brings players through into the senior team. Ten Hag is accustomed to this. I feel better about a manager that will build with a solid foundation, rather than bring in big names. Plus, ten Hag has stuck around and succeeded everywhere he has managed, whereas Pochettino has only really succeeded where he has stumbled into good situations that already existed. I'm just not sold on Pochettino.

Poch doesn't promote youth players? Guess you missed him shipping out the likes of Soldado and Abebayor to play Kane? Or chuck Alli straight in after his move from MK Dons?

Spurs was a good situation for him to come into? Are you having a laugh or do you just not know what you're talking about?

 

[VP89]

We do have a different outlook. And Arsenal displaced themselves, we are not going to pretend that it had anything to do with Pochettino. From 15/16, Arsenal had terrible transfer windows and plummeted.

He had seasons finishing above United and City, then above those 2 + Chelsea, then above Chelsea.

All whilst spending less. This isnt about Arsenal alone, it was just an example. It is about how he built a team to overperform with relatively less resources to the big dogs he was competing against.

But lets just agree to disagree. At 49 with his managerial career ahead of him, he most certainly hasnt seen his ceiling. Young managers learn a lot and make mistakes just like young players too.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Then it becomes a waiting game with United being the biggest losers, again.

Maybe. I just think Glazers can stump up £10m and not exactly miss it but they haven't got as rich as they are by giving in to another party. They'll need to be convinced.. and hopefully will, as our runs in tournaments this year could easily net us more than that £10m.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

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Surely it has to be concluded that nobody really knows what's going on here, briefs and false reporting all over the place

Yep, no one has a clue what’s going on at the moment. Tweets coming out one minute saying one thing only to be completely contradicted by another tweet the next.

 

[glazed]

Indeed but it seems the 'selling' club can still decline the offer

As far as I know there is no legal difference between player contracts and anybody else's. It's just that there is no transfer window for non-players.

 

[pascell]

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Surely it has to be concluded that nobody really knows what's going on here, briefs and false reporting all over the place

As I said yesterday, I feel all the hysterical chatter about Pochettino being interested in the job and potentially being appointed immediately, was all coming from his agent.

I think we're going to go down the interim route as a chance for the recruitment team to breath and do their due diligence on any permanent appointment, as a lot can happen from now until the end of the season that could swing it in the favour of ten Hag or Pochettino.

The next permanent managerial appointment is massive for our football club, we need to get it right and it is also the first appointment of the newly formed transfer/recruitment structure. If they get it wrong, then that will have the fans back up straight away which they won't want.

 

[lsd]

Why is everyone, pundits included, so confident that Pochettino will succeed? I am not overly impressed with his CV. He had one good year at Tottenham, and PSG is in Ligue 1, which is not exactly the most difficult football league to win. He took over a PSG team that has either won or finished second in Ligue 1 for each of the past 11 years. And now, he has Messi along with Neymar and Mbappe.

Is Poch going to come in to United and clean house like Van Gaal or Mourinho did - in a desire to create his own team? Ole, for all his faults, did a good job of building a solid base.

I am more intrigued by Erik ten Hag. For one, Ajax, like United has an excellent youth system that brings players through into the senior team. Ten Hag is accustomed to this. I feel better about a manager that will build with a solid foundation, rather than bring in big names. Plus, ten Hag has stuck around and succeeded everywhere he has managed, whereas Pochettino has only really succeeded where he has stumbled into good situations that already existed. I'm just not sold on Pochettino.

Poch's main attribute is bringing in younger players into the first team.

PSG is the wrong team for him and I doubt he has much say in team selection.

He is younger than Ten Hag yet vastly more experienced and has proved himself in several leagues especially the Premier League.

There is not one attribute where Ten Hag can be called a better Manager than Poch.

 

[largelyworried]

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Surely it has to be concluded that nobody really knows what's going on here, briefs and false reporting all over the place

Its like with player transfers, when the clubs go through intermediaries, if they get rebuffed, they just say there was no formal approach. I'd be amazed if United hadn't at least put the feelers out to see what PSG and Poch's positions are from people close to them.

 

[JPRouve]

He had seasons finishing above United and City, then above those 2 + Chelsea, then above Chelsea.

All whilst spending less. This isnt about Arsenal alone, it was just an example. It is about how he built a team to overperform with relatively less resources to the big dogs he was competing against.

But lets just agree to disagree. At 49 with his managerial career ahead of him, he most certainly hasnt seen his ceiling. Young managers learn a lot and make mistakes just like young players too.

He had an excellent starting eleven full of players that were highly rated even before he joined. At the end of the day what matter is the player that you actually have not the money spent, bags of cash don't play Football. Pochettino is a good coach and helped his players achieve their potential but he didn't do anything that warrants your rating or faith in his unlimited ability to develop. Also he didn't improve significantly during the 6 years spent at Spurs which was the initial point, the point wasn't whehter he is a good coach or not.

On a side note it's worth mentioning that Paul Mitchell was credited as the main influence regarding team building at both Southampton and Tottenham, things went downhill when he left.

By curiosity, do you think that Ole is going to improve in the next decade and reach a new level, he is only 48?

 

[crossy1686]

If Manchester United hadn't expressed and interest in Poch he might have got the sack in the next few games and you could have got him for free?

Or it now gives PSG a reason to sack him and finally get Zidane in

 

[JPRouve]

Poch's main attribute is bringing in younger players into the first team.

PSG is the wrong team for him and I doubt he has much say in team selection.

He is younger than Ten Hag yet vastly more experienced and has proved himself in several leagues especially the Premier League.

There is not one attribute where Ten Hag can be called a better Manager than Poch.

Why would Pochettino be the first manager under QSI not have a say in team selection?

 

[stefan92]

Like every other domains what matter is experience, it's not as if managers have unlimited development. After 12 years you are most likely what you are, it's the same for everyone.

And yet someone like Jupp Heynckes build his strongest team in his last full season as a manager (Bayern 12/13, who were colse to perfection), when he was well in his sixties and had decades of experience.

Development is possible, even at a high age.

 

[lsd]

Why would Pochettino be the first manager under QSI not have a say in team selection?

You think he can turn round and say he wants to give other players a chance over Neymar and co ?

 

[JPRouve]

And yet someone like Jupp Heynckes build his strongest team in his last full season as a manager (Bayern 12/13, who were colse to perfection), when he was well in his sixties and had decades of experience.

Development is possible, even at a high age.

Heynckes didn't develop at a high age, Heynckes was one of the best manager in the world in the 90s, what he did was maintain that level for an incredible amount of time into his 60s.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

We have to accept that there is a real possibility that Ed Woodward has barricaded himself in his office and is watching Sancho's goal on repeat whilst singing "Carricky at the wheel" and sticking his fingers in his ears ah la Maguire.

 

[bosskeano]

This would certainly be the way to make a splash if this is a demand he would make before taking the job....shortlist of mids to purchase starts and ends with Jude and Frenkie

https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/footba...-bellingham-to-man-united_471002.html?newsnow

 

[JPRouve]

You think he can turn round and say he wants to give other players a chance over Neymar and co ?

If Neymar and co. weren't the best and most consistent performers, yes.

 

[stefan92]

Heynckes didn't develop at a high age, Heynckes was one of the best manager in the world in the 90s, what he did was maintain that level for an incredible amount of time into his 60s.

He further developed his man management skills and adapted to more modern concepts to play the game (especially pressing, Barca-inspired positional/possession play).

That is the reason WHY he was able to stay this long in the game (or better returned to the top).

 

[acnumber9]

He had an excellent starting eleven full of players that were highly rated even before he joined.

Did he though? Were Danny Rose and Kyle Walker highly rated? His most used centre back after Vertonghen was Federico Fazio. Ryan Mason and Nabil Bentaleb started 54 league games between them. Nacer Chadli was first choice. Were they all excellent or highly rated? You’re overrating that Spurs squad he inherited.

 

[JPRouve]

He further developed his man management skills and adapted to more modern concepts to play the game (especially pressing, Barca-inspired positional/possession play).

That is the reason WHY he was able to stay this long in the game (or better returned to the top).

But he didn't reach a new level, his ceiling was Champions League winner. The fact that he was able to adapt is something that was part of his arsenal during his first decade at management. Or are we saying that Heynckes didn't show his qualities at Bayern and Real Madrid in the 80s-90s? Manager rarely show a new side of themselves into their second decade of management and Heynckes didn't, he just kept doing what he was already doing, he did it with smaller clubs and again with Bayern.

 

[VP89]

He had an excellent starting eleven full of players that were highly rated even before he joined. At the end of the day what matter is the player that you actually have not the money spent, bags of cash don't play Football. Pochettino is a good coach and helped his players achieve their potential but he didn't do anything that warrants your rating or faith in his unlimited ability to develop. Also he didn't improve significantly during the 6 years spent at Spurs which was the initial point, the point wasn't whehter he is a good coach or not.

On a side note it's worth mentioning that Paul Mitchell was credited as the main influence regarding team building at both Southampton and Tottenham, things went downhill when he left.

By curiosity, do you think that Ole is going to improve in the next decade and reach a new level, he is only 48?

But his squad wasnt better than the big teams he finished over (over a sustained period) and nor was it spending as much. He unlocked the potential in so many of these players to get them at levels that they have nor shown under other managers. Be it Alli, Kane, Sissoko, Dembele, etc.
He also did this at Southampton, he made Fonte and Lovren look really good, and same for Lambert and others. People thought at the time they were quality players, two of whom earned moves to big clubs. He makes these players realize their potential so I find it under appreciation when you say he just had a good team.

The top 5-6 clubs all have good teams with the richest for having most depth. He still over achieved statistically in points and league finish for a sustained period. I find that way more impressive than token cups and the mark of a manager with high potential in the future.

To answer your Ole point - I think he returned to United a better manager to what he was at Cardiff. He said himself he learned from novice mistakes there.

I think Rodgers for example is a better manager today than his early Liverpool days too. He also has spoken of growth as a manager, picking things up at Celtic of possession tactics etc.

And I think Poch will also improve from the level hes shown at Spurs. That improved level from what he already showed will likely be strong pedigree for a big club. Not necessarily Ole though because his level is already quite low as a coach. He just isnt a coach by his own admission, but nonetheless he would improve relative to his younger self over time.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

By curiosity, do you think that Ole is going to improve in the next decade and reach a new level, he is only 48?

Reaching a new level is statistically very unlikely.

Most good-to-great managers peaked before 50. And most declined rather badly (Mourinho is a textbook example).

Then you have some outliers (like SAF - the obvious example) who maintained a very high level for a long time after peaking.

But jumping up a level as you're approaching 50...has to be pretty rare.

 

[JPRouve]

Did he though? Were Danny Rose and Kyle Walker highly rated? His most used centre back after Vertonghen was Federico Fazio. Ryan Mason and Nabil Bentaleb started 54 league games between them. Nacer Chadli was first choice. Were they all excellent or highly rated? You’re overrating that Spurs squad he inherited.

I'm not talking about the team he inherited, I'm talking about his best team which is why I said that he helped them but he didn't do it with poor players. The likes of Lloris, Vertonghen, Adelrweireld, Eriksen, Walker, Dembélé, Wanyama, Alli, Kane or Son were rated without him and while he should be credited for helping them achieve their potential, the way people talk about them you would think that it was a bunch of talenteless players that were only helped by Pochettino.

I try to be balanced and give him his credit while also recognizing that he was given some good material to work with and people just keep adding some hyperbolic statements.

 

[Santoryo]

It's weird, especially considering Pochettino took a Spurs-team not much stronger than this Ajax-team, to a CL-final.

My point exactly. Hearing people talk one would think Ten Hag had shown miracles at Ajax while Poch just coasted through with an elite club without producing trophies or anything extraordinary when in truth is that he did some great things with Tottenham.

 

[JPRouve]

Reaching a new level is statistically very unlikely.

Most good-to-great managers peaked before 50. And most declined rather badly (Mourinho is a textbook example).

Then you have some outliers (like SAF - the obvious example) who maintained a very high level for a long time after peaking.

But jumping up a level as you're approaching 50...has to be pretty rare.

That's my point and that's mainly due to when manager start their career, around 50 years old they often have at least a decade at high level there isn't much growth left. There may be some exceptions like Zidane who started and may improve beyond that or even ten Hag who only started to manage at a good level 8 years ago but even he could be close to his ceiling.

 

[stefan92]

But he didn't reach a new level, his ceiling was Champions League winner. The fact that he was able to adapt is something that was part of his arsenal during his first decade at management. Or are we saying that Heynckes didn't show his qualities at Bayern and Real Madrid in the 80s-90s? Manager rarely show a new side of themselves into their second decade of management and Heynckes didn't, he just kept doing what he was already doing, he did it with smaller clubs and again with Bayern.

Then let's agree to disagree whether we can use him as an exampke for late development. You see the ability to adapt as a permanent quality, while I do rate it as ongoing development, both points of view are fair I guess.

 

[Compton22]

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[JPRouve]

Then let's agree to disagree whether we can use him as an exampke for late development. You see the ability to adapt as a permanent quality, while I do rate it as ongoing development, both points of view are fair I guess.

To me there is contradiction in your logic because the existence of an ongoing development demonstrates that the quality to adapt is already present, the ongoing development is an adaption to your environment. The alternative being that you don't have an ongoing development and adapt instantly out of nowhere?

 

[bosnian_red]

Poch's main attribute is bringing in younger players into the first team.

PSG is the wrong team for him and I doubt he has much say in team selection.

He is younger than Ten Hag yet vastly more experienced and has proved himself in several leagues especially the Premier League.

There is not one attribute where Ten Hag can be called a better Manager than Poch.

Well Ten Hag has 2 league titles and is on pace for the 3rd straight, would've likely been 4 straight but they cancelled the 19/20 season with them top on GD. There isn't a single comparison to be made with the playing style both teams play, Ten Hag's teams play much better/more attractive football than Pochettino's. Ten Hag is pretty much done as much as anybody could possibly do with Ajax, and in style. The way they press and play as a team is far better, more controlled and more sustainable than what Pochettino did with Spurs IMO. He's exactly the type of manager that goes to a Barcelona/Bayern and proceeds to do really well with them (like Nagelsmann). But Nagelsmann had his doubters on here too I guess. As did Klopp. People just like to hate on the progressive managers who do great at smaller clubs in an attractive style for some reason.

 

[acnumber9]

I'm not talking about the team he inherited, I'm talking about his best team which is why I said that he helped them but he didn't do it with poor players. The likes of Lloris, Vertonghen, Adelrweireld, Eriksen, Walker, Dembélé, Wanyama, Alli, Kane or Son were rated without him and while he should be credited for helping them achieve their potential, the way people talk about them you would think that it was a bunch of talenteless players that were only helped by Pochettino.

I try to be balanced and give him his credit while also recognizing that he was given some good material to work with and people just keep adding some hyperbolic statements.

It’s just the way you said before he joined. I would argue that he got considerably more out of Walker and Rose than anyone did before or since in the case of Rose. Walker was considered a joke player. Dembele had been a flop at Spurs and Alli and Eriksen haven’t exactly gone from strength to strength since he left. Though an argument can be made their decline had already begun. He’s not a miracle worker, but he improved many of those players.

 

[JPRouve]

It’s just the way you said before he joined. I would argue that he got considerably more out of Walker and Rose than anyone did before or since in the case of Rose. Walker was considered a joke player. Dembele had been a flop at Spurs and Alli and Eriksen haven’t exactly gone from strength to strength since he left. Though an argument can be made their decline had already begun. He’s not a miracle worker, but he improved many of those players.

I was talking about the players themselves not Spurs. Alli and Eriksen regressed under Pochettino. And typically there is an exaggeration in the way you talk about these players, they weren't flops and jokes during Villas Boas first season, they were young players developing and as I already said in both of the post you quoted, yes Pochettino helped them which is to his credit but he had talented players and prospects.

That's what I mean, I don't say something hyperbolic and I get hyperbolic answers. Isn't it enough that I consider him to be a good coach that has helped talented players? Or do I have to claim that Tottenham were shit, that he built from the team alone from scratch and that all these players would have wasted their careers without him?

 

[Halftrack]

Poch's main attribute is bringing in younger players into the first team.

It definitely isn't. He brought a grand total of two players through at Spurs: Winks and Skipp, and Skipp barely played. "Ah, but Kane" you'll say, but then I'll just point out that Kane was brought into the first team setup by AVB, and made a starter by Sherwood. Poch then spent a good two months threading old ground, trying to get Soldado and Adebayor firing, before coming to the same conclusion Sherwood had done six months earlier and handed the starting spot to Kane.

 

[DutchCruijff]

He wants the job. Just look at him in the press conference, looks really tense. Wouldn't be surprised if he's feeling anxious that he might miss out on the job again.

I am surprised how much he adores Man Utd and the Premier League.

He definitely could risk missing out again though. Valverde or someone of that ilk could be successful.

 

[acnumber9]

I was talking about the players themselves not Spurs. Alli and Eriksen regressed under Pochettino. And typically there is an exaggeration in the way you talk about these players, they weren't flops and jokes during Villas Boas first season, they were young players developing and as I already said in both of the post you quoted, yes Pochettino helped them which is to his credit but he had talented players and prospects.

That's what I mean, I don't say something hyperbolic and I get hyperbolic answers. Isn't it enough that I consider him to be a good coach that has helped talented players? Or do I have to claim that Tottenham were shit, that he built from the team alone from scratch and that all these players would have wasted their careers without him?

You’re entitled to hold any opinion you desire. I’m just questioning aspects of it. As is the point of a forum. We’ll have to agree to disagree on how players like Rose and Walker were viewed I’m afraid.