Ralf’s 4-2-2-2

Was good to see how aggressive Lindelof was today instead of sitting back. Seemed like a different player.

Where does DvD fit into this new formation, back up with Lingard for the two no 10 roles?
 
I think it suits us. It takes advantage of our tonnes of 10s and Inside forwards.

Definitely need another CM though.
 
Yeah I liked what we did today with the formation. I think it suits the quartet we had up front and hope to see more of it.
 
The key to 4-2-2-2 is that the two number 10s (interiores) are press resistant because they need to receive the ball in half spaces under pressure.

City had Nasri and Silva.
Arsenal had Nasri/Hleb and Rosicky.
Villarreal had Cazorla, Cani, Riquelme, Valero
Malaga had Isco, Joaquin and Portillo

3 of those 4 were managed by Pellegrini.

For us, I think Pogba and Sancho are press resistant enough to play the role of a interior, but I worry about Bruno.
 
It'll be interesting to see how it works out but I'll have to be convinced it's a system that would get the best out of Sancho, Rashford and Bruno in the positions they were today.
 
db7c232b-efad-403b-ba17-536574ab9495.jpg


Fred really impressed with his clever positioning, but it was wasted on the likes of Maguire.

Notice how their #6 is tied down by needing to close Bruno on the left flank and the other midfielder similarly needs to stay with McT where Fred created plenty of space to receive the ball, turn towards CP goal and transition into lightening attack, but Maguire is totally incapable to read any of it and slows us down with toothless horizontal pass to Lindlof, completely killing our momentum.

Horrible decision-making
 
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It's genius. Unlocks the attacking prowess of Dalot and Telles and forces them to stay switched on all game.
It puts Bruno and Sancho in pockets which makes heavy use of their great ball control.
It gives Ronaldo a partner that he so desperately needs.
It makes use of all our talent - Greenwood, Martial, Cavani, Amad, Elanga, Rashford and Ronaldo all have good roles in the team.
It keeps the McFred sauce in midfield (great defence).
It takes the creative pressure off of Scott (he's atrocious on the ball)
 
The key to 4-2-2-2 is that the two number 10s (interiores) are press resistant because they need to receive the ball in half spaces under pressure.

City had Nasri and Silva.
Arsenal had Nasri/Hleb and Rosicky.
Villarreal had Cazorla, Cani, Riquelme, Valero
Malaga had Isco, Joaquin and Portillo

3 of those 4 were managed by Pellegrini.

For us, I think Pogba and Sancho are press resistant enough to play the role of a interior, but I worry about Bruno.

Pogba is press resistant? I think some people are really underrating Bruno. IMO he will come into his own under Rangnick. This style of play is built for him.
 
:lol: ffs enter the pseudo intellectual tactical geniuses. Genius to play your preferred formation, sure.
 
Pogba is press resistant? I think some people are really underrating Bruno. IMO he will come into his own under Rangnick. This style of play is built for him.
in the context of our squad I'd say he's one of our better players at keeping the ball under pressure, yes. He's by no means great as he can be dispossessed cheaply but, as a whole, we don't really have any top tier press resistant players so the standard isn't that high.

I hope you're right but I think Bruno's very weak under pressure. A lot of the time he has to play act to get the ref to blow the whistle because he loses the ball too easily.
 
db7c232b-efad-403b-ba17-536574ab9495.jpg


Fred really impressed with his clever positioning, but it was wasted on the likes of Maguire.

Notice how their #6 is tied down by needing to close Bruno on the left flank and the other midfielder similarly needs to stay with McT where Fred created plenty of space to receive the ball, turn towards CP goal and transition into lightening attack, but Maguire is totally incapable to read any of it and slows us down with toothless horizontal pass to Lindlof, completely killing our momentum.

Horrible decision-making
Good post, I’ve thought for a while we’re really bad at that progressive pass into midfield, hope we improve now.
 
Me too. Hope Ralf puts an end to it. We know he hates it
How can professional players not see the pass? I play football once a week and can literally always see those kind of balls.
 
The key to 4-2-2-2 is that the two number 10s (interiores) are press resistant because they need to receive the ball in half spaces under pressure.

City had Nasri and Silva.
Arsenal had Nasri/Hleb and Rosicky.
Villarreal had Cazorla, Cani, Riquelme, Valero
Malaga had Isco, Joaquin and Portillo

3 of those 4 were managed by Pellegrini.

For us, I think Pogba and Sancho are press resistant enough to play the role of a interior, but I worry about Bruno.
Pogba is anything but press resistant. Not because of his ability and physicality but because more of whatever going on in his head depending on the day.

And probably gone after this season, not sure why we would count him in long term at all.
 
I think, for this formation, Rashford and Ronaldo are probably the worst options United have, which is a good thing. Swapping Rashford for Cavani should be a big improvement on what we saw today.
 
db7c232b-efad-403b-ba17-536574ab9495.jpg


Fred really impressed with his clever positioning, but it was wasted on the likes of Maguire.

Notice how their #6 is tied down by needing to close Bruno on the left flank and the other midfielder similarly needs to stay with McT where Fred created plenty of space to receive the ball, turn towards CP goal and transition into lightening attack, but Maguire is totally incapable to read any of it and slows us down with toothless horizontal pass to Lindlof, completely killing our momentum.

Horrible decision-making
Ralf will pour over the footage with his analysts and I hope we see less of this. Perfect place to receive the ball and turn there for Fred.
 
Early days but I liked what I saw today. Suits the squad we have. Still leaves 4 positions for the forward thinking players, allows us to have width and utilise space at the same time...and addresses the issue all season of there being a big gap in front of our defence all the time.

It probably harms someone like Rashford who likes to cut in from the left as he wont get nearly as much chance to do that...but then it'll still harm him less than being played on the right wing 90% of the time.

I mean considering that was the first time we tried it and it;s a pretty big departure from what we have been doing, and we've had basically 1 training session to even discuss it never mind work on it, I don't think it could have been any more positive as a start. Just have to see how it plays out in other games and after we've worked on it a bit.

Someone rounded like Greenwood I can see loving it.
 
Thats the end of AWB as a RB if we do utilise the 4222 formation, the full backs getting forward will be critical for it to work, Shaw should be fine but AWB has no chance!

I think it makes sense, but i would worry that it narrows the pitch for us and causes 2 problems:

1. our only options are to come in side and play through the middle, with us having no width, would that make us easier to defend against?
2. presumably if you were playing against us you'd load up the wings when you've got the ball and double up against the full backs?
 
Pogba is anything but press resistant. Not because of his ability and physicality but because more of whatever going on in his head depending on the day.

And probably gone after this season, not sure why we would count him in long term at all.
You're right that his inconsistency also plays a part in whether he can keep the ball under pressure at times, but everyone of our players has been inconsistent, to be fair. Even with his inconsistencies, we don't have many - or anyone, really - who's any better or consistent at keeping the ball under pressure.

Rangnick talks about control, and, if he can get us to consistently control games, I feel like Pogba will be a big benefactor of that. I actually think AWB will, too. People are writing him off but his ability to win the ball high up the pitch is something Rangnick might love.
 
db7c232b-efad-403b-ba17-536574ab9495.jpg


Fred really impressed with his clever positioning, but it was wasted on the likes of Maguire.

Notice how their #6 is tied down by needing to close Bruno on the left flank and the other midfielder similarly needs to stay with McT where Fred created plenty of space to receive the ball, turn towards CP goal and transition into lightening attack, but Maguire is totally incapable to read any of it and slows us down with toothless horizontal pass to Lindlof, completely killing our momentum.

Horrible decision-making
You're picking out one instance in a game and then saying Maguire did it the whole game. I hate this type of "analysis". Sure, Maguire can be slow on the ball, but passing through the line or making those passes is not what I would pick out about Maguire to complain about.
 
The key to 4-2-2-2 is that the two number 10s (interiores) are press resistant because they need to receive the ball in half spaces under pressure.

City had Nasri and Silva.
Arsenal had Nasri/Hleb and Rosicky.
Villarreal had Cazorla, Cani, Riquelme, Valero
Malaga had Isco, Joaquin and Portillo

3 of those 4 were managed by Pellegrini.

For us, I think Pogba and Sancho are press resistant enough to play the role of a interior, but I worry about Bruno.
I actually think Bruno can be and is press resistant...but it is his inability to calm the fuk down that he need to work on!
 
You're picking out one instance in a game and then saying Maguire did it the whole game. I hate this type of "analysis". Sure, Maguire can be slow on the ball, but passing through the line or making those passes is not what I would pick out about Maguire to complain about.
It is not just Maguire and it is not just one time. You want me to collect all examples and do a complete analysis? People are paid to do those kinds of things. I was just trying to show an example and you attack me - why? You think this is not a systemic issue with our team and we are quick in transition, our players are not slowing down game with meaningless back and side- passes? Is that your reading of our games?
 
I think martial might be better suited in this formation to partner Ronaldo than rashford. Martial's ball control is just so much better, especially in tight spaces and he likes playing those 1-2 pass and move plays. Rashford for the most part is a bit brainless and is more suited as a sub when the game is stretched and we need some pace.
 
I actually think Bruno can be and is press resistant...but it is his inability to calm the fuk down that he need to work on!
You could be right, mate. The big thing with Rangnick seems to be "control" so if he can calm Bruno down and get him playing in a more measured and, well, controlled manner, I think he'll be twice the player. Everything doesn't need to be Hollywood. Sometimes keeping the ball is the best approach in opening teams up and maintaining pressure in the oppositions half.
 
It is not just Maguire and it is not just one time. You want me to collect all examples and do a complete analysis? People are paid to do those kinds of things. I was just trying to show an example and you attack me - why? You think this is not a systemic issue with our team and we are quick in transition, our players are not slowing down game with meaningless back and side- passes? Is that your reading of our games?
It’s just gonna take time. Fist thing Ralphy said was that he doesn’t like square passes...he dug out Fred and McT a bit after the game for it.

it will take time. Once the backline recognise that forward passing through lines is essential to keeping their place in the team they will cop on amazingly quick.

This is the most refreshing thing about today- two new full backs playing well means Shaw and Bisakka need to cop the fuk on or they can be replaced...Bailly and Varane are genuine competition for Maguir and Lindelof and both look like they could play in this system...Elanga coming on...Greenwood...if Rashford is not on it...take him out....real feeling that players can be swapped and will be swapped in this system and it will enhance rather than detract from the performance. This is a long way from the predictable old favorite approach under Ole. Exciting times.
 
Feel like we’re over analyzing the numbers a bit here. Is a 4-2-2-2 really that different from a 4-2-3-1

Both systems use Rashford’s runs in behind and in both systems the “Winger” positions almost as an attacking mid. (Remember when Pogba played in the left half space and Bruno in the right half space with Greenwood as the second forward?)

The devil is really in the details in this case. Almost have to rewatch the whole game to catch all the little details but

CB position seemed different. Zaha, Benteke didn’t really have any chance to work the channels (did CBs man mark them?) and the aerial balls, knock downs were very well.

McT and Fred seemed to time their presses/ runs very well.

The extremely obvious difference was wing back like positioning from both our fullbacks and the two CBs + two DMs allowed them to get forward more.
 
It is not just Maguire and it is not just one time. You want me to collect all examples and do a complete analysis? People are paid to do those kinds of things. I was just trying to show an example and you attack me - why? You think this is not a systemic issue with our team and we are quick in transition, our players are not slowing down game with meaningless back and side- passes? Is that your reading of our games?
Where am I attacking you? I'm just telling you I don't like that type of "analysis" where you use one instance to make a sweeping statement. So, yes, I'd expect more examples from an analysis that makes such a sweeping statement specifically that pinpoints a player. And secondly, yes, it has been a systemic problem whether it be the defenders or the midfielders. So, my issue with your post was about making it seem like its only Maguire. And finally, I'd go so far as to say it is one of Maguire's strengths to see and make those passes (well at least in comparison to our other defenders), and as you've given the example of today's game, I'd guarantee he made or attempted more of those passes than not today.
 
Feel like we’re over analyzing the numbers a bit here. Is a 4-2-2-2 really that different from a 4-2-3-1

Both systems use Rashford’s runs in behind and in both systems the “Winger” positions almost as an attacking mid. (Remember when Pogba played in the left half space and Bruno in the right half space with Greenwood as the second forward?)

The devil is really in the details in this case. Almost have to rewatch the whole game to catch all the little details but

CB position seemed different. Zaha, Benteke didn’t really have any chance to work the channels (did CBs man mark them?) and the aerial balls, knock downs were very well.

McT and Fred seemed to time their presses/ runs very well.

The extremely obvious difference was wing back like positioning from both our fullbacks and the two CBs + two DMs allowed them to get forward more.

The shift to 4-2-2-2 is designed to make the full-backs the provision of width. By contrast, our 4-2-3-1 attempts to make both the LW/RW and the RB/LB the provision of width, which has led to our classic problem under Ole of cluttering the wide area of the field. Cluttering invites opposition players, which in turn makes for more traffic to play through...........in that tiny section of the field. It's so, so counterproductive.
 
Where am I attacking you? I'm just telling you I don't like that type of "analysis" where you use one instance to make a sweeping statement. So, yes, I'd expect more examples from an analysis that makes such a sweeping statement specifically that pinpoints a player. And secondly, yes, it has been a systemic problem whether it be the defenders or the midfielders. So, my issue with your post was about making it seem like its only Maguire. And finally, I'd go so far as to say it is one of Maguire's strengths to see and make those passes (well at least in comparison to our other defenders), and as you've given the example of today's game, I'd guarantee he made or attempted more of those passes than not today.

Definitely not.

Maguire likes two passes. Well, three. Square ball, long and direct to left forward and lofty switch to the right. It is Lindelof, rather, that is more progressive in sliding ground passes between lines into the half-spaces to progress the transition.