PL Title Race

[footballistic orgasm]

I'm not saying that money is the only factor in city's success, that would be foolish. They have a great manager, a good structure etc etc. But let's not forget, this is a club that spent 100m on a bench warmer. 100 fecking million! Yet we hear nothing from the media because it's just sort of accepted now that this is what city do!

He started in most of their games this season though, so he's not the bench warmer that you are trying to portray in this post.
We can agree that he hasn't been very influencial so far (which is normal for basically every player that arrives when Pep is the coach), but that's it.

 

[footballistic orgasm]

We did last year, beat them 3 on the spin. And the CL final we outplayed them and deserved it, but yes, theyre so well coached.

They will hit a wobble though, its how they deal with it that will matter

You didn't though, you were however more clinical.

 

[DoneDaDa]

You didn't though, you were however more clinical.

They indeed did outplay them. If anything the score flatters City since it could’ve been 3-0.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

You didn't though, you were however more clinical.

We beat City pretty comprehensively in that final. Also hard to argue we were more clinical given Werner missed 3 chances by himself first half.

 

[footballistic orgasm]

We beat City pretty comprehensively in that final. Also hard to argue we were more clinical given Werner missed 3 chances by himself first half.

And City didn't miss chances in the first half before Chelsea scored?
What's with the revisionism going on here about Chelsea clearly being the better team in that final? Where are the stats that suggest this?
Offcourse Chelsea had goal situations but not much clear cut occasions, and so did City. And as usual/expected, City also had most of the ball.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

And City didn't miss chances in the first half before Chelsea scored?
What's with the revisionism going on here about Chelsea clearly being the better team in that final? Where are the stats that suggest this?
Offcourse Chelsea had goal situations but not much clear cut occasions, and so did City. And as usual/expected, City also had most of the ball.

They had basically two chances - Sterling got behind James and shot from a very acute angle and it was saved, and Foden had a shot blocked by Rudiger.

There's no revisionism - Chelsea were by far the better team in that final. Possession doesn't equate to performance, especially as City were trailing for the whole second half and despite that Chelsea had the best chance to score during that period.

 

[Niemans]

Ancelotti did it with 2 different clubs. Mourinho, Heynckes, and Hitzfeld also won it with different clubs.

Ancelotti's is rightfully regarded as one of CL's best ever, he did it first with a Milan that hasn't been competitive in the CL final in almost 10 years. And he also won Madrid their first in a decade. But his overall league record is not as impressive as Guardiola's.

Pep's only CL titles were won with a Barcelona that had won it recently and Messi came along in the meantime, and the fact he couldn't replicate the success with Bayern is damming. He is the only manager that failed 3 years running to take Bayern to one single final. Even Van Gall somehow made it to one final, and his squad nowhere near as stacked as the one Pep inherited.

In his second season at Bayern, in the semi-finals he arrived with many injured players against one of the best Barcelona.
The 3-0 first leg was very deceptive, minute 70 and 0-0 with better feelings for Bayern, simply messi's quality shattered the match.
In the second leg it ended 3-2 and Bayern deserved much more

In the third season, also in the semi-finals in the second leg, against Atletico they played one of the best games I can remember.
Far superior Bayern who deserved to pass widely, even Atletico's goal I think was offside.

Ancelotti was the next coach after Pep and Bayern were many levels below in all aspects.
So it is not surprising that he was fired.

If Ancelotti has few leagues won in so many years in top teams it is for a reason.

 

[kaiser1]

I'm not saying that money is the only factor in city's success, that would be foolish. They have a great manager, a good structure etc etc. But let's not forget, this is a club that spent 100m on a bench warmer. 100 fecking million! Yet we hear nothing from the media because it's just sort of accepted now that this is what city do!

How much does Pogba, Pulisic, Kai, Sancho and Kepa cost for their roles in their respective teams

 

[Pintu]

In his second season at Bayern, in the semi-finals he arrived with many injured players against one of the best Barcelona.
The 3-0 first leg was very deceptive, minute 70 and 0-0 with better feelings for Bayern, simply messi's quality shattered the match.
In the second leg it ended 3-2 and Bayern deserved much more

In the third season, also in the semi-finals in the second leg, against Atletico they played one of the best games I can remember.
Far superior Bayern who deserved to pass widely, even Atletico's goal I think was offside.

Ancelotti was the next coach after Pep and Bayern were many levels below in all aspects.
So it is not surprising that he was fired.

If Ancelotti has few leagues won in so many years in top teams it is for a reason.

Ancelotti was given one shot, 2017 and he failed. I don't know if the level dropped but one thing is sure, they were competitive in the most important games.

They trashed Arsenal (10-2) in the round of 16, and in the quarters they led Madrid 1-0 and they missed a penalty. And then they got very unlucky. Red card for Martinez and no red card for Casemiro. They lost that game 1-2 at home. In the second leg they won in Madrid 2-1 (offside goal by Cristiano) and took it to extra time despite again going down to 10 men.

But according to you Guardiola taking Bayern from 3 finals in 4 years to 0 finals in 3 years is only down to luck. His Bayern losing 4-0 at home to Ancelotti's Real is not his fault. That was the treble-winning bayern he inherited from Heynckes.

I believe there is more to it. Ancelotti was more capable of adapting and winning with less competitive teams, his 2007 Milan had many weaknesses and couldn't compete for Serie A, but he knew how to take the maximum out of it. His 2012/13 PSG squad was nowhere near the quality of 100 points Barcelona and he still could make it a context, they only went out on away goals.

 

[lex talionis]

All I have to say is…ten fingers.

 

[Wolf1992]

I believe there is more to it. Ancelotti was more capable of adapting and winning with less competitive teams, his 2007 Milan had many weaknesses and couldn't compete for Serie A, but he knew how to take the maximum out of it. His 2012/13 PSG squad was nowhere near the quality of 100 points Barcelona and he still could make it a context, they only went out on away goals.

I like Ancelotti, but he had the likes of Nesta,Maldini,Gattuso,Pirlo,Rui Costa,Cafu, Schevchenko, Seedorf, peak Kaka, and Inzaghi, it's not like he was managing Parma.
He went far in the UCL in most of his time at AC Milan, you don't achieve that with a less competitive team, plus he managed Bayern,Chelsea, and Real Madrid.

The only less competitive teams he managed were PSG and Everton.

He kinda underachieved with AC Milan in Serie A, even though he has the excuse of the deducted points due to Calciopoli.

 

[Ayoba]

How much does Pogba, Pulisic, Kai, Sancho and Kepa cost for their roles in their respective teams

Less than 100m.

 

[Banana Republic]

It’s sobering to see that at the halfway point in the season, we (Utd) are closer to Norwich on points, than we are to City (not taking games in hand into account).
In all honesty, for a large part of the season so far, we’ve also been closer to Norwich than City, in quality as well.

Although a lot can change over the course of half a dozen games, it looks like the mould is set for the rest of the league season.
City winning by a big margin, Chelsea and Liverpool battling it out for a distant 2nd place and currently, 4 teams (Arse, Spurs, WHU & Utd) in the race for 4th.
All I can see happening, is one of the those teams fighting for 4th place, might fall behind and realistically being out of contention.
Hopefully that’s not us.

.

 

[KingCavani]

I'm not saying that money is the only factor in city's success

It really is though.

 

[sangria]

I'm not saying that money is the only factor in city's success, that would be foolish. They have a great manager, a good structure etc etc. But let's not forget, this is a club that spent 100m on a bench warmer. 100 fecking million! Yet we hear nothing from the media because it's just sort of accepted now that this is what city do!

They were lower midtable before Sheik Mansour bought them. I doubt Guardiola would be interested were it not for the resources made available to him, not to mention the pay and other amenities, such as buying his brother a football club. The worst thing is, we can be pretty confident City are getting up to other stuff too, but they're covering up with legalities and an army of accountants and lawyers that no other organisation can match. So in addition to City being the biggest spending club in the world, they've got another level of spending behind that that we're not privy to. They're dodgy to the bone, and they know it, but they also know they can get away with it.

 

[Guy Incognito]

I'm not saying that money is the only factor in city's success, that would be foolish. They have a great manager, a good structure etc etc. But let's not forget, this is a club that spent 100m on a bench warmer. 100 fecking million! Yet we hear nothing from the media because it's just sort of accepted now that this is what city do!

They spent billions to change the club's structure for this very moment. That's why I find it difficult to compare Guardiola to Fergie or even Wenger.

 

[jakko]

Souness saying “this wasn’t the Liverpool of the last 4 years” - did last year not count? It hasn’t been that Liverpool for some time Graham. And the biggest myth there’s ever been is this idea Chelsea are at City’s level based on a Cup Final - they aren’t. They’ve never shown anywhere close to the consistency required. They were Leicester not bottling the last game of the season away from finishing 5th last year for fecks sake.

We finished 2021 with the second most points in the league, pretty good considering where Tuchel took over from.

 

[Reddevildans]

The one thing that I got to commend city for reluctantly is playing good football throughout the era of the takeover, regardless of manager. They seem to create more chances and dominate many more games than us despite having managers like Hughes, Mancini and Pellegrini who were not as good as Fergie or Jose (at the time).

Thier era of dominance will continue until pep fecks off. We won't challenge them at all until this happens unfortunately. The resources and structure in place is far more efficient than we have. The lesser of evils is city winning the league. Pep is a unique manager with a highly stubborn yet highly successful style. Despite not winning the ucl outside of Barcelona, he done wonders at city begrudgingly.

 

[WeePat]

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[Mickeza]

We finished 2021 with the second most points in the league, pretty good considering where Tuchel took over from.

You finished last season taking 16 points from 27 losing to West Brom, Arsenal and Villa and have won just 4 of your last 11 league games. Anyone who thinks you’re close to City is in absolute dreamland - hence why you finished 19 points behind last year and are 10 points off halfway through the season this year. And this annual PL table you’re talking about puts you a whopping 27 points behind City. It proves my point - you being in the race is a media fabrication - it’s not a big 4, or 3 or likely even two unless Liverpool can go back in time 3 years - it’s a big one. Nobody can match that consistency.

 

[gajender]

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Nah most seasons they would be 2nd and 3rd like this one and it won't be just 19 games on Jan 2 either and the gap would also be 6,7 points as well from the top . Teams rarely win title with 2ppg average .

 

[jakko]

You finished last season taking 16 points from 27 losing to West Brom, Arsenal and Villa and have won just 4 of your last 11 league games. Anyone who thinks you’re close to City is in absolute dreamland - hence why you finished 19 points behind last year and are 10 points off halfway through the season this year. And this annual PL table you’re talking about puts you a whopping 27 points behind City. It proves my point - you being in the race is a media fabrication - it’s not a big 4, or 3 or likely even two unless Liverpool can go back in time 3 years - it’s a big one. Nobody can match that consistency.

I never once said we were close to Man City, But its showing the improvement made under Tuchel considering where he took us over from.

 

[Pintu]

I like Ancelotti, but he had the likes of Nesta,Maldini,Gattuso,Pirlo,Rui Costa,Cafu, Schevchenko, Seedorf, peak Kaka, and Inzaghi, it's not like he was managing Parma.
He went far in the UCL in most of his time at AC Milan, you don't achieve that with a less competitive team, plus he managed Bayern,Chelsea, and Real Madrid.

Not from 2006 onwards. After Calciopoli they were not at all as strong. Sheva went away, Rui Costa too. Nesta played full-time only 1 of Ancelotti's last 3 seasons. He was injured most of the time 06/07 (but was available for the decisive run in the CL) and 08/09. Inzaghi too was very inconsistent and injury prone. But all in all, I don't consider him to be a better League manager than Guardiola. The Guardiola teams are better prepared to deal with a long 38 marathon.

The only less competitive teams he managed were PSG and Everton.

And Napoli. Since 2011, he's only had 3 full seasons with potential CL candidates. And he has won 1 CL and only been eliminated twice (by Juventus in 2015 and by Real in 2017).

Guardiola in the same period has coached potential CL candidates in 9 years and have been eliminated by clubs on half his budget or below repeatedly (Spurs, Lyon, Monaco). It took him 5 years and over 1 billion spending to replicate/beat the CL-result that Pellegrini had already done the year prior to his arrival.

In the last 10 years, many coaches acheived more than Pep in the Champions league. Zidane won 3 out of 5. Both Tuchel and Klopp reached the final with 2 different clubs, winning 1 each. Klopp took both Dortmund and Liverpool from nothing to CL-finals and to winning their respective leagues. Flick won a CL of all records, winning every single game in the tournement. So saying Pep is not the "best CL-coach ever" is really an understatment and it is not about Ancelotti. There are some more candidates.

 

[footballistic orgasm]

Talking about Ancelotti, he won the CL with a loaded Madrid team that had reached the CL semi finals often with Mourinho before he joined them.
As for Pep, it's not like he often lost to the teams when they were eliminated against with City. It's was often due to the away goal rule and often in weird circumstances.
All the great coaches say winning the league is more difficult than winning CL and other cup competitions because it requires a lot of consistency while cup competitions especially in knockout stages requires a lot of parameters and doesn't necessarily reflect what team is the best.

So trying to use the fact that Pep hasn't won the CL since 2011 as something to hold against his claim to being the best, makes no sense. Especially when these other great coaches have the biggest respect for Pep.

 

[abundance]

Ancelotti was given one shot, 2017 and he failed. I don't know if the level dropped but one thing is sure, they were competitive in the most important games.

They trashed Arsenal (10-2) in the round of 16, and in the quarters they led Madrid 1-0 and they missed a penalty. And then they got very unlucky. Red card for Martinez and no red card for Casemiro. They lost that game 1-2 at home. In the second leg they won in Madrid 2-1 (offside goal by Cristiano) and took it to extra time despite again going down to 10 men.

But according to you Guardiola taking Bayern from 3 finals in 4 years to 0 finals in 3 years is only down to luck. His Bayern losing 4-0 at home to Ancelotti's Real is not his fault. That was the treble-winning bayern he inherited from Heynckes.

I believe there is more to it. Ancelotti was more capable of adapting and winning with less competitive teams, his 2007 Milan had many weaknesses and couldn't compete for Serie A, but he knew how to take the maximum out of it. His 2012/13 PSG squad was nowhere near the quality of 100 points Barcelona and he still could make it a context, they only went out on away goals.

It goes both ways...
Ancelotti's Milan at its peak had a fantastic squad and they really should've had '04 and '05 CL in their trophy cabinet, they threw those in the sink with ridiculous breakdowns vs Depor and Liverpool.
Van Gaal's Bayern road to the final was very fortuitous, they lucked out massively against Utd. in the quarter finals and wouldn't even got past Fiorentina in the first KO stage without some huge referee blunders in their favour.

And regarding the actual coaching ability of the late Ancelotti... he couldn't even hold up the comparision with Sarri's work when he replaced him at Napoli so I can easily believe that he didn't look that bright at Bayern right after Guardiola.

 

[Andrew Wolf]

We beat City pretty comprehensively in that final. Also hard to argue we were more clinical given Werner missed 3 chances by himself first half.

Chelsea battered us that night in everything except possession. Kept City at arms length for the vast majority of the game and limited us to probably 3 or 4 half chances at best.

If we'd won that night, it would have been completely undeserved. Pep set the team up wrong and Tuchel very much had Pep's number

 

[Mark Wuhlberg]

City just have so much strength in depth, it doesnt matter if they miss key players.

This was posted on reddit a few days ago. This is our 'unbelievable' strength in depth:



You can check out squads from transfermarkt. We only have 17 first team players and they include Zack Steffen, Scott Carson and Zinchenko.

Tonight you had first team quality players like Bruno Fernandes, Rashford, Fred, Telles on the bench. The other day vs Newcastle, you brought on Cavani and 75m Sancho from the bench, we don't have a striker.

 

[Pintu]

Talking about Ancelotti, he won the CL with a loaded Madrid team that had reached the CL semi finals often with Mourinho before he joined them.
As for Pep, it's not like he often lost to the teams when they were eliminated against with City. It's was often due to the away goal rule and often in weird circumstances.
All the great coaches say winning the league is more difficult than winning CL and other cup competitions because it requires a lot of consistency while cup competitions especially in knockout stages requires a lot of parameters and doesn't necessarily reflect what team is the best.

So trying to use the fact that Pep hasn't won the CL since 2011 as something to hold against his claim to being the best, makes no sense. Especially when these other great coaches have the biggest respect for Pep.

What were the weird circumstances in the Monaco elimination? He was down at home 3-2 to Monaco with 20 minutes left, got bailed out by the referee, and won 5-3 but still couldn't defend that advantage in the return leg.

What were the weird circumstances that made him lose 3-1 to Lyon in Portugal? Is Lyon having a wage bill only 5 times smaller than his and being the 7th team of Ligue 1 that year too much for him? Did he need it to be Clermont to win?

It is not about winning the CL, as much as it is about at least when you ve outspent all your predecessors by hundreds of millions, to at least match their acheivements in your first 2/3 years.

Bayern reachs 3 finals in 4 years. Brings in Guardiola, 0 finals in 3 years. And 2 humiliating losses to Luis Enrique and to Ancelotti. These are facts.

City in the semifinals with Pell. Brings in Guardiola, and it takes him 5 years and over 1 billion in spending to replicate Pellegrini's results. No other coach in the world has ever been given 5 years in a job with this much spending power, it is very difficult to label him the best CL-coach when so many managers have got better CL results than him.

 

[Ayoba]

This was posted on reddit a few days ago. This is our 'unbelievable' strength in depth:



You can check out squads from transfermarkt. We only have 17 first team players and they include Zack Steffen, Scott Carson and Zinchenko.

Tonight you had first team quality players like Bruno Fernandes, Rashford, Fred, Telles on the bench. The other day vs Newcastle, you brought on Cavani and 75m Sancho from the bench, we don't have a striker.

Well done, you completely missed the point.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

This was posted on reddit a few days ago. This is our 'unbelievable' strength in depth:



You can check out squads from transfermarkt. We only have 17 first team players and they include Zack Steffen, Scott Carson and Zinchenko.

Tonight you had first team quality players like Bruno Fernandes, Rashford, Fred, Telles on the bench. The other day vs Newcastle, you brought on Cavani and 75m Sancho from the bench, we don't have a striker.

Really strange City not gone for bigger squad I guess they want to use youth more just in case.

I think City do not have a clear first 11 and rotates the front 3 a lot.

Liverpool got a clear 11 and rotates less although rotates the midfield a bit.

 

[sangria]

Really strange City not gone for bigger squad I guess they want to use youth more just in case.

I think City do not have a clear first 11 and rotates the front 3 a lot.

Liverpool got a clear 11 and rotates less although rotates the midfield a bit.

The OP omitted the youth from City's list whilst including the youth in the other lists. No wonder the City list looks smaller.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

The OP omitted the youth from City's list whilst including the youth in the other lists. No wonder the City list looks smaller.

Chelsea and us got the best depth though. Quantity over quality matters though.

Barkley and Loftus Check for example are pretty shitty. Fernandinho still better than both.

 

[sangria]

Chelsea and us got the best depth though. Quantity over quality matters though.

Barkley and Loftus Check for example are pretty shitty. Fernandinho still better than both.

The point is, City have as much quantity as the others, and more quality. But the poster's list hides the quantity to make it seem as though they don't have that quantity. A bit like how City hide their spending to make it seem as though others spend as much as them. There's what they want you to see, then there's a load behind the scenes that they pretend doesn't exist for them.

No one, not even United, can afford to spend as much as City to keep up both their quality and quantity.

 

[adexkola]

Chelsea and us got the best depth though. Quantity over quality matters though.

Barkley and Loftus Check for example are pretty shitty. Fernandinho still better than both.

Fernandinho is definitely not better, his legs are gone. If Rodri gets injured, City are fecked.

 

[footballistic orgasm]

What were the weird circumstances in the Monaco elimination? He was down at home 3-2 to Monaco with 20 minutes left, got bailed out by the referee, and won 5-3 but still couldn't defend that advantage in the return leg.

What were the weird circumstances that made him lose 3-1 to Lyon in Portugal? Is Lyon having a wage bill only 5 times smaller than his and being the 7th team of Ligue 1 that year too much for him? Did he need it to be Clermont to win?

It is not about winning the CL, as much as it is about at least when you ve outspent all your predecessors by hundreds of millions, to at least match their acheivements in your first 2/3 years.

Bayern reachs 3 finals in 4 years. Brings in Guardiola, 0 finals in 3 years. And 2 humiliating losses to Luis Enrique and to Ancelotti. These are facts.

City in the semifinals with Pell. Brings in Guardiola, and it takes him 5 years and over 1 billion in spending to replicate Pellegrini's results. No other coach in the world has ever been given 5 years in a job with this much spending power, it is very difficult to label him the best CL-coach when so many managers have got better CL results than him.

Nobody here has said anything about Pep being the best CL coach, but what's this whole "best CL coach" you keep trying to use? Either you're a good/great coach or you aren't. No one in their right mind thinks Ancelotti is a better coach than Pep.

Like i said, they lost to Monaco on goal aggregate. I don't know what you mean by they got bailed out by the referee in the first leg.

They lost to Lyon in Portugal, but how can you blame Pep for Sterling's miss in that game?

The weird circumstances was the defeat against Spurs (which they also lost due to the away goal rule), with the controversial Llorente goal and the last City goal that was disallowed.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

The point is, City have as much quantity as the others, and more quality. But the poster's list hides the quantity to make it seem as though they don't have that quantity. A bit like how City hide their spending to make it seem as though others spend as much as them. There's what they want you to see, then there's a load behind the scenes that they pretend doesn't exist for them.

No one, not even United, can afford to spend as much as City to keep up both their quality and quantity.

Well if we compare with Chelsea then Chelsea got more depth, but less quality on the wings and creative midfield.

Foden, Grealish, Sterling, Mahrez are players Chelsea do lack. I think Pulisic and Ziyech can play that role, but they are not as good.

Central midfield Chelsea got great quality, but they do not have someone like De Bruyne with so much creativity.

Chelsea play a different formation of course, but the problem they have is lacking those star players that can score or create.

Lukaku and Havertz should have been the ones, but both not been as good as expected.

 

[Thunderhead]

Nobody here has said anything about Pep being the best CL coach, but what's this whole "best CL coach" you keep trying to use? Either you're a good/great coach or you aren't. No one in their right mind thinks Ancelotti is a better coach than Pep.

Like i said, they lost to Monaco on goal aggregate. I don't know what you mean by they got bailed out by the referee in the first leg.

They lost to Lyon in Portugal, but how can you blame Pep for Sterling's miss in that game?

The weird circumstances was the defeat against Spurs (which they also lost due to the away goal rule), with the controversial Llorente goal and the last City goal that was disallowed.

Aguero also missed a penalty in the first leg of the spurs tie

 

[sangria]

Well if we compare with Chelsea then Chelsea got more depth, but less quality on the wings and creative midfield.

Foden, Grealish, Sterling, Mahrez are players Chelsea do lack. I think Pulisic and Ziyech can play that role, but they are not as good.

Central midfield Chelsea got great quality, but they do not have someone like De Bruyne with so much creativity.

Chelsea play a different formation of course, but the problem they have is lacking those star players that can score or create.

Lukaku and Havertz should have been the ones, but both not been as good as expected.

That's not my point though. My point is that the list the City poster posted hides the truth. If he posts the list again, with the City youth included this time (and maybe their 50 million left back), then we can start comparing like with like. But he starts by posting a misleading list, and you can't really have a discussion based on that.

 

[footballistic orgasm]

The point is, City have as much quantity as the others, and more quality. But the poster's list hides the quantity to make it seem as though they don't have that quantity. A bit like how City hide their spending to make it seem as though others spend as much as them. There's what they want you to see, then there's a load behind the scenes that they pretend doesn't exist for them.

No one, not even United, can afford to spend as much as City to keep up both their quality and quantity.

Who are these quality players that were hidden on that list?
They don't have more quality either. They're very well coached and that's the big difference.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

That's not my point though. My point is that the list the City poster posted hides the truth. If he posts the list again, with the City youth included this time (and maybe their 50 million left back), then we can start comparing like with like. But he starts by posting a misleading list, and you can't really have a discussion based on that.

Yeah Mendy is not in it I guess, but would have been.