Who is to blame? - Super thread

devilish

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I rarely open new threads these days because most of the arguments have already been discussed. However I am noticing many finger pointing at one aspect of what's going wrong with Manchester United. While there's truth in what most are saying, I do believe that the issue is far more complex and involves way more people then simply the players etc.

Thus I am going to make a list of what I think is to blame. Starting from the least to the most to blame. You're free to argue pro and against that

8. Rangnick

Rangnick is a fantastic football person. While there are a number of managers who had build great sides some far more successful then Ralph's teams ever were, Rangnick had literally built great clubs. He's a person whose top to bottom vision is second only to that of the likes of prime Sir Alex. That's a valuable asset to have especially in a football world were jobs are often super specialised. Managers had become head coaches, there are DOFs, there are chief scouts, analysts etc. Rangnick is one of the few people left who can do each and every job. His gegenpressing is the way to go. It allows clubs to build a successful side without having to spend ridiculous money on world class players per position while still playing attacking football.

However I do question the wisdom of implementing such demanding tactic with one of the laziest and entitled squads in the EPL mid way into the season especially when we simply lack the personnel to do so and that our players haven't pressed for the past 3 years. Cavani-Ronaldo are ancient, AWB look lost in the opponent's half of the pitch while Maguire has less pace then a frigging tortoise. You don't need to be a genius to acknowledge that this 4-2-2-2 system can't work here, at least, not with the present side

7. SAF


I blame the great man on two things. First of all he left an ageing side and a ridiculously outdated system behind (no DOF, technical director, sporting director etc). That was fine for him as the guy was a one man army but it was set to tank the moment he retired (which would have been sooner rather then later). Secondly its evident that he still have a huge say at OT. At age 80 and with him not being involved in football on a day to day basis that is silly. Football had moved on, the guy had become too sentimental and what worked in his time won't work now.

6. The fans


We fans are Manchester United's last bastion. Most of the people out there are in for the money (salary) or the fame associated being linked with us (pundits etc) but we're the ones who will stick to the club and throw money at it no matter what. Thus we should have a mind of our own and stop applauding mediocracy. We can't win all the time and that's a fact. However there's standards that need to be met and kept no matter whose the employee is. We have too many blood suckers at the club for us to allow others to do the thinking for us.

5. Recruitment

Time and time again we had been promised that we'll be sorting this issue for good. The result of years of reform was a cautious recruitment team who often overspend (salary or/and fee) on proven players who are either not good enough (Maguire, AWB etc) or whose on their big last pay cheque (Ronaldo, Varane, Cavani). Players are human beings. Those not good enough know it and will do anything to defend their highly paid position (leak information, cheat and get people sacked) while players heading towards the end of their career are either impatient for that last trophy or will take care not to get that injury that they would have to carry for the rest of their lives. Not to forget that what one can do in his 20s is not what can one can do in late 30s either

4. Contract guys

Why do we give so much salary to average players? What's the point of it? Players on a huge salary are so difficult to get rid and would be forced upon the next manager. Also what's the brilliance between letting players walk on free instead of selling them before? We risk losing 100-120m worth of talent this year alone!

3. Players

We've got one of the laziest and quite frankly mediocre squads in the EPL, with players insisting in making Championship level mistakes. United leak like a sieve and no one ever takes responsibility of what's going on. That's disgusting.

2. The board


Where do I start? Ah yes, over 1 Billion pounds spent and 4 managers sacked (+ 2 interim) and there's absolutely nothing to show for it. We allowed a failed Cardiff manager to spend 415m on players, it took us 3 years searching for a DOF only to discover Murtough at Carrington and we gave Fletcher 2 promotions in few months. Now there are even rumours of players being able to bypass the manager and speak directly to the board. How silly is that?

1. The owners

I don't hate the owners as much as the typical United fan does. I do think that they have invested in the club and they tried to keep themselves at an arm's length from football matters which is a good thing. However there comes a time when enough is enough. This club had been throwing tons of their own money in the bin for years. Surely a responsible owner would at least bother to look that up and make necessary changes to stop that from happening. Ours simply don't. I know that the likes of Woodward had produced profit on a year basis however waste is still waste and its bad.
 

SER19

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Posted this elsewhere re Ferguson and the absurd aiming of blame towards him.

'You don't get to simultaneously blame Ferguson and the Glazers. The board have been shown up as utterly incompetent, self interested businessmen and the fact that Ferguson managed to wrangle any degree of control while keeping them in check and keeping us successful is a miracle in itself. This in vogue trend of blaming Ferguson is lazy, embarrassing rubbish. What other manager in the world do you place the demand on to babysit the board and oversee the state of the club as well as win games? Because it can't be both, either you wanted Ferguson to surrender power and relinquish control to this incompetent mob earlier, while he was still manager, or you wanted to be successful for all those years we were. Rubbish, one dimensional thinking, the same as the utter myth that wont flush that he wasn't tactically sound, despite winning 13 titles and hitting 7 CL semi finals, winning it twice. Oh, that was just charisma and man management. Give him a dutch sounding name and you'd be creaming yourself in front of youtube highlights.'

Overall it comes from top down and the loss of Ferguson led to a Woodward and Glazer led drop in standards which has permeated through the club, and is now upheld by players who know little else. Average guys piggy backing on the success and reputation built by Ferguson and real footballers
 

Tallis

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Perhaps we can have a little more definition around what’s wrong. Do you mean, in general, since SAF left or this season. I think a debate on the latter is more interesting as the former probably will result in only one conclusion.
 

Born2Lose

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I think when SAF was here, the players knew his power was absolute so if he gave them some leeway on somethings they knew not to take the piss. When he left and the manager became much more disposable the players started taking advantage.

I always remember a story about Moyes falling out with the players because he told them they couldn't have chips for a pre game supper, it's not that surprising we've ended up where we have.

Rio Ferdinand: 'David Moyes p****d off the lads by taking away our chips' claims former Manchester United defender

When SAF left I've always felt the stupidest move was not appointing Moyes, but to give him the power to dismanlte one of the most successful backroom teams the club has ever had.
 

Tallis

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I think it’s naive to assume that our players are some special mercenaries and have a different mentality from clubs who have had success recently. This has become the press narrative and fans will lap it up, I am sure.
 

UpWithRivers

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All of the above minus Ragnick. I mean how can anyone get blame after 5 games. Its ridiculous. Plus Ill add 1 more - The press. Sure there are leaks and sht hasnt exactly gone well but the press make up 90 percent of it and all of it is targeted to hammer the sht out of us and make it a million times worse. Its just constant bashing.
 

Ixion

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I don't see Ole's name, Jose's name...but I see Rangnick's name...
 

KingCavani

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A lot of these tiers don't even make sense. Recruitment, the contracts, the board, the owner - You can't just separate all that out as they all bleed into each other.

Ferguson deserves a lot more blame than he gets but our fans consider it sacrilege to say anything negative about the man. Even putting aside the Rock of Gibraltar and shielding of the Glazers, the "no value in the market" nonsense as City propelled themselves into a superpower - his recruitment, even for what little United were spending was just not good enough from 2007 on. It left us with an aging squad with inflated expectations. Most of the big hitters were finished at the top level within two years of his departure. Those who we moved on did nothing of note anywhere else. The only top player left behind was De Gea.

I'd certainly rank him ahead of the fans. I don't know how you can blame the fans. Any PL club with a huge following is going to struggle to force the owners into doing anything. Even Newcastle fans weren't able to organise anything meaningful against Ashley and they have nothing like the national and international following United have. Fans are just powerless at a club this big. A lot of them did famously take a stand and to emphasize why Fergsuon should be ranked higher - He demonized them and portrayed them as traitors when he knew full well what they were protesting was legitimate.

People can dress it up however they want. Ferguson has been as good a friend as any to the owners who everyone can see are the biggest problem at our club. To absolve him of blame like some try to do is nothing short of cultish behaviour.
 
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JebelSherif

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I think when SAF was here, the players knew his power was absolute so if he gave them some leeway on somethings they knew not to take the piss. When he left and the manager became much more disposable the players started taking advantage.

I always remember a story about Moyes falling out with the players because he told them they couldn't have chips for a pre game supper, it's not that surprising we've ended up where we have.

Rio Ferdinand: 'David Moyes p****d off the lads by taking away our chips' claims former Manchester United defender
To be fair, it was not just the charisma of the man - as the op states 'football has moved on'. A Fergie type manager circa 1990 would just not work now and it is down to one specific thing: the Bosman ruling. The players have the power now, I would say too much power. Furthermore, there is the whole internet to contend with that was in its infancy in 1990. So you have players poncing about on social media and doing what the heck they like and especially if they are older, they can't really be brought into line easily.

It will be interesting to see how the Aubameying thing pans out at Arsenal, but he will probably just end up at Newcastle on silly money anyway. Lukaka seems to have been dragged back into the fold at Chelsea, by Tuchel - but who knows what Abromovitch has said (threatend) to him and his people, behind the scenes. It will be interesting to see if Guiardiola can keep the lad Foden on the straight and narrow at Man City in the next few years - I think he might, but given a weaker man in charge, whom the team (and Foden) don't look up to, he could easily go down the Gazza/Best route & he has been on the naughty step a few times recently. Although I hope not, for Englands sake.

Which brings it back to Utd. Why have United ended up with so many preening prima donnas? I don't really know - but buying Ronaldo, who is the most preening of the lot, was down to one phonecall by one man. So I agree with point 7.
 

Marcelinho87

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I think we are going through what Liverpool did a weird DNA nostalgia trip where everything has to have this "United DNA" and the club has to have these ex players in roles even though they have no qualifications to do so.

Basically until we get over this whole thing we're fecked... it undermines ANY manager that comes in and sets the club back massively.
 

redIndianDevil

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The only thing I blame SAF for now is still hanging around and influencing decision making, he has to leave or become completely unattached with the board.

As for the fans, I'd blame them for sticking with morons like Mourinho for so long. And in general being patient and accommodating average managers because we got lucked out SAF some 20 years ago.

I'd blame Woodward or whoever who made the silly pitch to Klopp that we are a Disneyland. While they had the correct idea to go after Klopp, they probably should have gotten to know more about him through research and made a professional pitch.
 

Giggsy13

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Anyone blaming Sir Alex for our problems now should be facing a permanent ban. He made the club what it is now and it has been widely reported by many credible journalists like Stone that he had virtually no more power at the club. He’s a figurehead and a legend enjoying his retirement. Piss off OP for even including Sir Alex. Piss off to anyone who’a gullible enough to believe that he’s still leading any decisions at the club.

After 27 years, he owed this club nothing else when he retired and any competent club run by good owners would have had a proper succession plan in place. This falls firmly onto the glazers. The fact you made a list and included Sir Alex shows you don’t have a clue. You spout nonsense. The simplest argument is usually the most sensible one and it’s the GLAZERS and only them that are the problem.
 

Giggsy13

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:lol:

Jesus when I said it was like a cult I didn't even think it was this bad. My days...
It has nothing to do with being a cult, it’s about being self aware and actually having an understanding of why the club is even the massive draw it is now. Clueless supporters like yourself blaming an 80 year old legend for our club’s problems need to sit down and shut it. You’re cowards bleeping on about it on red cafe, have the guts to say it in person then. Blind and coward supporters like you don’t have it in you to do that.
 
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Giggsy13

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A lot of these tiers don't even make sense. Recruitment, the contracts, the board, the owner - You can't just separate all that out as they all bleed into each other.

Ferguson deserves a lot more blame than he gets but our fans consider it sacrilege to say anything negative about the man. Even putting aside the Rock of Gibraltar and shielding of the Glazers, the "no value in the market" nonsense as City propelled themselves into a superpower - his recruitment, even for what little United were spending was just not good enough from 2007 on. It left us with an aging squad with inflated expectations. Most of the big hitters were finished at the top level within two years of his departure. Those who we moved on did nothing of note anywhere else. The only top player left behind was De Gea.

I'd certainly rank him ahead of the fans. I don't know how you can blame the fans. Any PL club with a huge following is going to struggle to force the owners into doing anything. Even Newcastle fans weren't able to organise anything meaningful against Ashley and they have nothing like the national and international following United have. Fans are just powerless at a club this big. A lot of them did famously take a stand and to emphasize why Fergsuon should be ranked higher - He demonized them and portrayed them as traitors when he knew full well what they were protesting was legitimate.

People can dress it up however they want. Ferguson has been as good a friend as any to the owners who everyone can see are the biggest problem at our club. To absolve him of blame like some try to do is nothing short of cultish behaviour.
Stinks of someone who just started supporting the club 5 years ago. Childish post and childish to assume that because we support an absolute legend in Sir Alex that we’re a cult. Again you can sit behind a computer to spout this nonsense, but someone like you would never have the guts to say that to a group of real United supporters. Blaming Sir Alex for our current problems after he retired 9 years ago, absolute wankers.
 

KingCavani

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It has nothing to do with being a cult, it’s about being self aware and actually having an understanding of why the club is even the massive draw it is now. Clueless supporters like yourself blaming an 80 year old legend for our club’s problems need to sit down and shut it.
Being solely responsible for the rise doesn't absolve blame for the fall. Obviously there are bigger issues than Ferguson but he made many decisions that contributed to the current mess. Denying that is denying reality.

You’re cowards bleeping on about it on red cafe, have the guts to say it in person then. Blind and coward aupppeters like you don’t have it in you to do that.
Are...are you challenging me to a fight?!
 

youmeletsfly

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The real truth is, nobody knows and nobody should actually give a feck who's fault is it. We can just hope there's a good plan in place for the future. It makes 0 sense to blame X and Y, other than concentrating on improvement.

If it's the board, then good luck, it's just bad management and from bad management they'll learn and do better in the future, as proven by RR's appointment that should be followed by a same type of manager, which shows long term planning for once.

If it's the players, that's normal(I'd still say feck them) and other players will come in the future. The current crop of players have played under different managers but under the same club atmosphere. The real deal will start once RR's replacement comes and that's why RR won't take any harsh decisions on any of them.

The fans, especially the match going ones have always been at fault by blindly supporting whoever is in charge or on the pitch, because it's some sort of elegant tradition. When you pay to see entertainment, you should stand up and scream when you don't like it.

The contract guys have some fault for offering current players massive wages, same with new ones. But, maybe United is no longer an attraction for new players and the only way of doing it is by paying money.

The owners don't really give a feck as they come from a different culture, I don't understand why fans expect them to be hands on, it's unreal.

Meanwhile I just hope this fecking moaning on the forum stops, jeez, don't people have anything more positive to do with their lives?

No matter who's fault is, on the pitch it's very clear. We don't have the players to play any sort of style other than hit on the counter and it will be a long while until that changes. People should accept it and shut up.
 

r3idy

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Don't think you can silver bullet this. The more this goes on the more you can that an institution there is something NOT right at United in many parts of the organisation.

- A legacy god like figure still exerting his influence over the club (SAF)

- Mind boggling transfers and contract renewals, e.g. Fellaini, Lingard, Mata, Jones, DDG, Di Maria, Falcao, Smalling

- Letting the bricks and mortar assets effectively rot i.e. Old Trafford and Carrington, while the rest of the teams associated with the club play at Leigh Sports Village and The Cliff. Where is the cohesive strategy.

Maybe the Glazers gave too much power to Woodward and were apathetic to their responsibilities as owners rather than just being absent landlords. Woodward as the leading figure of one of the leading sporting institutions globally was out of his depth, he needed support and was either to blind to ask for it or to naive.

What I will never fathom is, as fans we believe (prob rightly so) that the owners are in it for themselves i.e. $$$ Surely the penny must drop at some point you need to get it right ON The pitch to make the Benjamins off it.

Hopefully with Richard Arnold taking the helm we can see a better balance between commercial activity the pursuit of footballing excellence.
 

Ixion

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Blaming Fergie is a complete non-starter for me as he didn't intend to retire when he did, it was forced about by family circumstance so he wasn't able to properly prepare for leaving.
 

redcafe_reader

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6. The fans

We fans are Manchester United's last bastion. Most of the people out there are in for the money (salary) or the fame associated being linked with us (pundits etc) but we're the ones who will stick to the club and throw money at it no matter what. Thus we should have a mind of our own and stop applauding mediocracy. We can't win all the time and that's a fact. However there's standards that need to be met and kept no matter whose the employee is. We have too many blood suckers at the club for us to allow others to do the thinking for us.
I can only say this is very spot on, especially the first and last sentence. Fan need to think for themself based on what they saw on the pitch.
 

Infra-red

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Woodward and the Glazers are ultimately responsible and therefore ultimately to blame for everything that has gone wrong at United in the past decade, including the current crisis.

A useless CEO and useless owners.
 

KingCavani

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Stinks of someone who just started supporting the club 5 years ago. Childish post and childish to assume that because we support an absolute legend in Sir Alex that we’re a cult. Again you can sit behind a computer to spout this nonsense, but someone like you would never have the guts to say that to a group of real United supporters. Blaming Sir Alex for our current problems after he retired 9 years ago, absolute wankers.
Haha you couldn't be further from the truth. I see you didn't even attempt to refute any point I made which is unsurprising.

I have said this to plenty of United supporters. You are really angry about this. I guess that's what I get for having the audacity to criticise the leader. Ignorance is strength.
 

Giggsy13

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Being solely responsible for the rise doesn't absolve blame for the fall. Obviously there are bigger issues than Ferguson but he made many decisions that contributed to the current mess. Denying that is denying reality.



Are...are you challenging me to a fight?!
Stop being a drama Queen. When you go after supporters for defending Sir Alex and call them a cult, take the heat. If you post nonsense, take the heat. Blaming Sir Alex for our problems now is batshit crazy. He’s 80 years old and owes this club nothing else. He put 27 years of his life into making the United the giant it is now yet a small group of you think he’s controlling the club behind the scenes and making it worse. I suppose that goes to his legend for some of you to think he’s still helping make decisions but every credible journalist has long debunked that theory. The Glazers are to blame for this mess for not getting out of the way and letting footballing men be in charge.
 

Giggsy13

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Haha you couldn't be further from the truth. I see you didn't even attempt to refute any point I made which is unsurprising.

I have said this to plenty of United supporters. You are really angry about this. I guess that's what I get for having the audacity to criticise the leader. Ignorance is strength.
You’re not a real United supporter, end of.
 

KingCavani

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Stop being a drama Queen. When you go after supporters for defending Sir Alex and call them a cult, take the heat. If you post nonsense, take the heat. Blaming Sir Alex for our problems now is batshit crazy. He’s 80 years old and owes this club nothing else. He put 27 years of his life into making the United the giant it is now yet a small group of you think he’s controlling the club behind the scenes and making it worse. I suppose that goes to his legend for some of you to think he’s still helping make decisions but every credible journalist has long debunked that theory. The Glazers are to blame for this mess for not getting out of the way and letting footballing men be in charge.
I call out cultish behaviour when I see it. Saying any dissent should be met with a ban is cultish behaviour by any objective measure. There's no conversation to be had with people such as that.

Who said anything about what he's doing now? It's almost like the past can affect the future. He did things when he had power that contributed to this club's fall. The recruitment from 2007 on, the shielding of the Glazers from any scrutiny, the selection of Moyes - They were his calls to make and they've had an impact at the club to this day.

You have a lot of negative things to say about the Glazers. Ferguson wouldn't be pleased!
 

Giggsy13

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The only thing I blame SAF for now is still hanging around and influencing decision making, he has to leave or become completely unattached with the board.

As for the fans, I'd blame them for sticking with morons like Mourinho for so long. And in general being patient and accommodating average managers because we got lucked out SAF some 20 years ago.

I'd blame Woodward or whoever who made the silly pitch to Klopp that we are a Disneyland. While they had the correct idea to go after Klopp, they probably should have gotten to know more about him through research and made a professional pitch.
Every credible journalist has debunked the theory that Sir Alex is influencing any decisions at the club. He’s a legend and a figurehead much like Sir Bobby.
 

Ahmer Baig

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The sooner we stopped living in past the better it would be for Man Utd to progress. Liverpool is a fine example. Do we really want to wait for 30 years for our next PL trophy?
 

bringbackbebe

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Blaming Fergie? The 2013 squad was really good till Moyes/LVG did what Moyes/LVG did. All of this is hindsight bias.

We have to stop looking back as to what went wrong and start looking forward to see how we can get to where to want to be? First step would be a squad clear out.
 

tomaldinho1

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Why blame an interim manager who has managed a handful of games :lol:

1. Recruitment (managers and players)
2. The rest

All clubs go through cycles, it's not that crazy we've had this dip post SAF and it happens at other clubs. We need to really stop trying to say x,y or z is to blame and look forward now. Hopefully that's what Ragnick is a sign of, finally leaving the 'United DNA' behind and becoming, albeit long overdue, a modern football club.
 

Giggsy13

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I call out cultish behaviour when I see it. Saying any dissent should be met with a ban is cultish behaviour by any objective measure. There's no conversation to be had with people such as that.

Who said anything about what he's doing now? It's almost like the past can affect the future. He did things when he had power that contributed to this club's fall. The recruitment from 2007 on, the shielding of the Glazers from any scrutiny, the selection of Moyes - They were his calls to make and they've had an impact at the club to this day.

You have a lot of negative things to say about the Glazers. Ferguson wouldn't be pleased!
I’ll entertain this idiotic suggestion one more time. So Ferguson who ran the club how he saw fit for 27 years with trophies and success is to blame for the current structural problems at the club or with the way power was transferred in 2013? After 27 years he didn’t owe the club anything further. He recommended Moyes, the owners who had no expertise in building a successful club themselves listened. If they had any sense, which they did not, they would’ve took some lessons from elsewhere and tried to modernize the club at that time but they were lazy because success came easily under Sir Alex.

Sir Alex had no obligation to further assist the club in helping modernize the structure in 2013. He was done and earned his retirement. You can rightly blame him for suggesting Moyes, but if we had a club that thought ahead and had a succession plan in place then they could have politely turned his recommendation down but they didn’t because they’re clueless buffoons a lot like yourself. Ignorance is bliss? Well you are the very definition of ignorance.
 

KingCavani

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I’ll entertain this idiotic suggestion one more time. So Ferguson who ran the club how he saw fit for 27 years with trophies and success is to blame for the current structural problems at the club or with the way power was transferred in 2013? After 27 years he didn’t owe the club anything further. He recommended Moyes, the owners who had no expertise in building a successful club themselves listened. If they had any sense, which they did not, they would’ve took some lessons from elsewhere and tried to modernize the club at that time but they were lazy because success came easily under Sir Alex.

Sir Alex had no obligation to further assist the club in helping modernize the structure in 2013. He was done and earned his retirement. You can rightly blame him for suggesting Moyes, but if we had a club that thought ahead and had a succession plan in place then they could have politely turned his recommendation down but they didn’t because they’re clueless buffoons a lot like yourself. Ignorance is bliss? Well you are the very definition of ignorance.
Do you understand the concept of collective responsibility?

Pointing out Ferguson's mistakes doesn't absolve the Glazers, Woodward, the most recent managers or anyone involved in the current regime. Whatever else mistakes have been made Ferguson's have still undeniably been a factor. You can put all the spin on the Moyes appointment all you want - Ferguson had total say on the decision because he ensured the club was structured around him. When he was the most influential man at the club he could have modernized the setup himself, knowing he was soon leaving. He did not. Another failing.

To say he had no obligation is true. Van Gaal and Mourinho didn't have an obligation for what came after but they still left a disjointed mess and deserve blame for it. Ferguson left a squad with Rio, Vidic, Evra, Carrick, Rooney and RVP among the most important players. All of them, every one was all but finished within three years. Half of them were finished by the time Moyes rocked up. The replacements were subpar - Rafael, Kagawa, Hernandez, Welbeck, Cleverley etc. all went to on have mediocre careers at best. There was nothing in that team to build a future around and it spoke to the shocking investment that was made from 2007 on. Poor investment that everyone could see, poor investment that the fans protested but poor investment that Fergsuon assured everyone was actually great.

Keep up the personal attacks. It doesn't make you seem any less pathetic.
 

el3mel

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It's the board ultimately. They hired wrong people in the wrong positions and signed the wrong players. If we had had a proper plan of rebuilding post Moyes sacking, we would have been where we're now.
 

Norman Brownbutter

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Posted this elsewhere re Ferguson and the absurd aiming of blame towards him.

'You don't get to simultaneously blame Ferguson and the Glazers. The board have been shown up as utterly incompetent, self interested businessmen and the fact that Ferguson managed to wrangle any degree of control while keeping them in check and keeping us successful is a miracle in itself. This in vogue trend of blaming Ferguson is lazy, embarrassing rubbish. What other manager in the world do you place the demand on to babysit the board and oversee the state of the club as well as win games? Because it can't be both, either you wanted Ferguson to surrender power and relinquish control to this incompetent mob earlier, while he was still manager, or you wanted to be successful for all those years we were. Rubbish, one dimensional thinking, the same as the utter myth that wont flush that he wasn't tactically sound, despite winning 13 titles and hitting 7 CL semi finals, winning it twice. Oh, that was just charisma and man management. Give him a dutch sounding name and you'd be creaming yourself in front of youtube highlights.'

Overall it comes from top down and the loss of Ferguson led to a Woodward and Glazer led drop in standards which has permeated through the club, and is now upheld by players who know little else. Average guys piggy backing on the success and reputation built by Ferguson and real footballers
I blame him because it’s his fault the glazers are here at all. Him and that fecking horse.
 

royboy16

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I rarely open new threads these days because most of the arguments have already been discussed. However I am noticing many finger pointing at one aspect of what's going wrong with Manchester United. While there's truth in what most are saying, I do believe that the issue is far more complex and involves way more people then simply the players etc.

Thus I am going to make a list of what I think is to blame. Starting from the least to the most to blame. You're free to argue pro and against that

8. Rangnick

Rangnick is a fantastic football person. While there are a number of managers who had build great sides some far more successful then Ralph's teams ever were, Rangnick had literally built great clubs. He's a person whose top to bottom vision is second only to that of the likes of prime Sir Alex. That's a valuable asset to have especially in a football world were jobs are often super specialised. Managers had become head coaches, there are DOFs, there are chief scouts, analysts etc. Rangnick is one of the few people left who can do each and every job. His gegenpressing is the way to go. It allows clubs to build a successful side without having to spend ridiculous money on world class players per position while still playing attacking football.

However I do question the wisdom of implementing such demanding tactic with one of the laziest and entitled squads in the EPL mid way into the season especially when we simply lack the personnel to do so and that our players haven't pressed for the past 3 years. Cavani-Ronaldo are ancient, AWB look lost in the opponent's half of the pitch while Maguire has less pace then a frigging tortoise. You don't need to be a genius to acknowledge that this 4-2-2-2 system can't work here, at least, not with the present side

7. SAF

I blame the great man on two things. First of all he left an ageing side and a ridiculously outdated system behind (no DOF, technical director, sporting director etc). That was fine for him as the guy was a one man army but it was set to tank the moment he retired (which would have been sooner rather then later). Secondly its evident that he still have a huge say at OT. At age 80 and with him not being involved in football on a day to day basis that is silly. Football had moved on, the guy had become too sentimental and what worked in his time won't work now.

6. The fans

We fans are Manchester United's last bastion. Most of the people out there are in for the money (salary) or the fame associated being linked with us (pundits etc) but we're the ones who will stick to the club and throw money at it no matter what. Thus we should have a mind of our own and stop applauding mediocracy. We can't win all the time and that's a fact. However there's standards that need to be met and kept no matter whose the employee is. We have too many blood suckers at the club for us to allow others to do the thinking for us.

5. Recruitment

Time and time again we had been promised that we'll be sorting this issue for good. The result of years of reform was a cautious recruitment team who often overspend (salary or/and fee) on proven players who are either not good enough (Maguire, AWB etc) or whose on their big last pay cheque (Ronaldo, Varane, Cavani). Players are human beings. Those not good enough know it and will do anything to defend their highly paid position (leak information, cheat and get people sacked) while players heading towards the end of their career are either impatient for that last trophy or will take care not to get that injury that they would have to carry for the rest of their lives. Not to forget that what one can do in his 20s is not what can one can do in late 30s either

4. Contract guys

Why do we give so much salary to average players? What's the point of it? Players on a huge salary are so difficult to get rid and would be forced upon the next manager. Also what's the brilliance between letting players walk on free instead of selling them before? We risk losing 100-120m worth of talent this year alone!

3. Players

We've got one of the laziest and quite frankly mediocre squads in the EPL, with players insisting in making Championship level mistakes. United leak like a sieve and no one ever takes responsibility of what's going on. That's disgusting.

2. The board

Where do I start? Ah yes, over 1 Billion pounds spent and 4 managers sacked (+ 2 interim) and there's absolutely nothing to show for it. We allowed a failed Cardiff manager to spend 415m on players, it took us 3 years searching for a DOF only to discover Murtough at Carrington and we gave Fletcher 2 promotions in few months. Now there are even rumours of players being able to bypass the manager and speak directly to the board. How silly is that?

1. The owners

I don't hate the owners as much as the typical United fan does. I do think that they have invested in the club and they tried to keep themselves at an arm's length from football matters which is a good thing. However there comes a time when enough is enough. This club had been throwing tons of their own money in the bin for years. Surely a responsible owner would at least bother to look that up and make necessary changes to stop that from happening. Ours simply don't. I know that the likes of Woodward had produced profit on a year basis however waste is still waste and its bad.
Some valid points mentioned.I’d add another, the “boys club”,I feel there’s too many inexperienced personnel working at the club that shouldn’t have been in their roles Giggs,Ole and Carrick spring to mind.While I appreciate they need to learn and get experience,none of them were good enough,we should have experienced coaching staff taking up important roles for a huge club like Utd.
 

Sanchez7

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The owners have spent a LOT of money. Woodward and co are the ones to blame for this mess.
 

UnsungHero

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For me, it's down to Woodward's poor management of the club.

He was never prepared to accept his limitations and admit he's not a football man. With the money we have, he could have put in place a world class team of football men to run the club from top to bottom, just like City did.

Instead, we just limped along, throwing money around without a coherent plan.

For all the faults of the Glazers, and yes of course ultimately the buck stops with them, they have made significant sums of money available. Woodward has presided over this mess for the past 8 years or so.

Given the value of our squad, it's just infuriating beyond words what could have been. When people said we'd be like Liverpool of the 90's, I laughed it off, surely that can't happen.

Well it did. Thanks Woodward.