Who is to blame? - Super thread

[Foxbatt]

Generally - board, of course.

But right now ball is in Rangnick's court. He is the manager, he needs to start being decisive. I can understand t hat coming in he wanted to take it easy, so he wouldn't cause too many problems, but that didn't work anyway and his has mutiny on his hands. Time to act.

Very first thing he needs to do is to remove Maguire from captainship. Harry is clearly completely incapable of leadership. He was never able to gel the dressing room but the fact itself that the dressing room is so divided is proof in itself that he has failed. Preventing such mess is literally captain's job, so whether you like him or hate him, obviously he failed. So he needs to step down, there is no other logical choice. I don't know who should replace him. Normally, when you have GOAT Ronaldo in squad, it should obviously be him, but considering already divided squad, I would probably give the armband to De Gea. After Ronaldo, De Gea is the most decorated player, absolute legend of the club, clear leader, and best player this season.

Once i see Maguire removed as captain I will believe that Rangnick has what it takes, otherwise he is coming off a spineless and indecisive. Time for playing nice is gone.

Yes if there is any division in the dressing room, then the Captain has failed. I see Ronaldo as the only option for now because only he has the stature in the club to do so. I do not think DeGea has it to be the captain.
Subbing your captain when he is gassed out is not an issue. Or resting him is no issue too. We had Robbo as club captain in his last year and he hardly played and SAF to a lot of people's dismay even dropped him from the FA Cup Final squad(I feel he should not have done it).

 

[owlo]

The owners. Probably better intentioned than we give them credit for. Definitely less competent. Should have sold up for £2bn or whatever it was, instead of pretending they understood and gambling further.

 

[kthanksbye]

I think in general the lack of accountability has been the problem with the club, from the people who hire managers, to the people who hire coaches, to the scouts who have been shocking since almost a decade now, to the people who negotiate prices for player purchase and even their contracts, it has been a huge mess since a long time now. The only accountability that happens is the manager every 2-3 years where we sack one and hire another without any long term vision of how the team is supposed to move forward.

 

[kthanksbye]

Who's responsibility is that we have two 36 yr old strikers at the club and the 3rd one is on 250k/week and does not want to play?
Who's accountable for spending 80m ona CB who became the captain of the club and has lower table strikers making him look like a Sunday league player.
Who takes responsibility for the fact that our RB was scouted from 50 other RBs and the one we ended up paying 50m for anyway had a breakthrough season with Palace in the PL itself and now it turns out he's incapable of completing a 10 yard pass.
Who is to be blamed that our 47m midfielder has no skill on the ball and is good for running around and breaking play.
Who takes responsibility for the fact that our last CM cannot get a game even when literally no other midfielder has performed well enough to claim a starting spot?
Our 85m wing forward is yet to score a league goal for us.
Two of our most promising lads from the academy have completely gone off the boil now.

 

[Hughie77]

Just look at the players who cross the white line. There's only half of them who got it the rest are stealing a living off the clubs name.

 

[Lentwood]

Ed Woodward, for me. The buck stops with him as the CEO. We are the worst-run club in the PL in my opinion, and that clearly can't reflect anything but poorly on the person who ultimately sits atop the corporate structure.

 

[ryansgirl]

Yes if there is any division in the dressing room, then the Captain has failed. I see Ronaldo as the only option for now because only he has the stature in the club to do so. I do not think DeGea has it to be the captain.
Subbing your captain when he is gassed out is not an issue. Or resting him is no issue too. We had Robbo as club captain in his last year and he hardly played and SAF to a lot of people's dismay even dropped him from the FA Cup Final squad(I feel he should not have done it).

True on all points especially about Ronaldo v De Gea as Captain. Love De Gea but he just doesn't have it for this kind of situation.

 

[BuzzKillington]

I rarely open new threads these days because most of the arguments have already been discussed. However I am noticing many finger pointing at one aspect of what's going wrong with Manchester United. While there's truth in what most are saying, I do believe that the issue is far more complex and involves way more people then simply the players etc.

Thus I am going to make a list of what I think is to blame. Starting from the least to the most to blame. You're free to argue pro and against that

8. Rangnick

Rangnick is a fantastic football person. While there are a number of managers who had build great sides some far more successful then Ralph's teams ever were, Rangnick had literally built great clubs. He's a person whose top to bottom vision is second only to that of the likes of prime Sir Alex. That's a valuable asset to have especially in a football world were jobs are often super specialised. Managers had become head coaches, there are DOFs, there are chief scouts, analysts etc. Rangnick is one of the few people left who can do each and every job. His gegenpressing is the way to go. It allows clubs to build a successful side without having to spend ridiculous money on world class players per position while still playing attacking football.

However I do question the wisdom of implementing such demanding tactic with one of the laziest and entitled squads in the EPL mid way into the season especially when we simply lack the personnel to do so and that our players haven't pressed for the past 3 years. Cavani-Ronaldo are ancient, AWB look lost in the opponent's half of the pitch while Maguire has less pace then a frigging tortoise. You don't need to be a genius to acknowledge that this 4-2-2-2 system can't work here, at least, not with the present side

7. SAF

I blame the great man on two things. First of all he left an ageing side and a ridiculously outdated system behind (no DOF, technical director, sporting director etc). That was fine for him as the guy was a one man army but it was set to tank the moment he retired (which would have been sooner rather then later). Secondly its evident that he still have a huge say at OT. At age 80 and with him not being involved in football on a day to day basis that is silly. Football had moved on, the guy had become too sentimental and what worked in his time won't work now.

6. The fans

We fans are Manchester United's last bastion. Most of the people out there are in for the money (salary) or the fame associated being linked with us (pundits etc) but we're the ones who will stick to the club and throw money at it no matter what. Thus we should have a mind of our own and stop applauding mediocracy. We can't win all the time and that's a fact. However there's standards that need to be met and kept no matter whose the employee is. We have too many blood suckers at the club for us to allow others to do the thinking for us.

5. Recruitment

Time and time again we had been promised that we'll be sorting this issue for good. The result of years of reform was a cautious recruitment team who often overspend (salary or/and fee) on proven players who are either not good enough (Maguire, AWB etc) or whose on their big last pay cheque (Ronaldo, Varane, Cavani). Players are human beings. Those not good enough know it and will do anything to defend their highly paid position (leak information, cheat and get people sacked) while players heading towards the end of their career are either impatient for that last trophy or will take care not to get that injury that they would have to carry for the rest of their lives. Not to forget that what one can do in his 20s is not what can one can do in late 30s either

4. Contract guys

Why do we give so much salary to average players? What's the point of it? Players on a huge salary are so difficult to get rid and would be forced upon the next manager. Also what's the brilliance between letting players walk on free instead of selling them before? We risk losing 100-120m worth of talent this year alone!

3. Players

We've got one of the laziest and quite frankly mediocre squads in the EPL, with players insisting in making Championship level mistakes. United leak like a sieve and no one ever takes responsibility of what's going on. That's disgusting.

2. The board

Where do I start? Ah yes, over 1 Billion pounds spent and 4 managers sacked (+ 2 interim) and there's absolutely nothing to show for it. We allowed a failed Cardiff manager to spend 415m on players, it took us 3 years searching for a DOF only to discover Murtough at Carrington and we gave Fletcher 2 promotions in few months. Now there are even rumours of players being able to bypass the manager and speak directly to the board. How silly is that?

1. The owners

I don't hate the owners as much as the typical United fan does. I do think that they have invested in the club and they tried to keep themselves at an arm's length from football matters which is a good thing. However there comes a time when enough is enough. This club had been throwing tons of their own money in the bin for years. Surely a responsible owner would at least bother to look that up and make necessary changes to stop that from happening. Ours simply don't. I know that the likes of Woodward had produced profit on a year basis however waste is still waste and its bad.

Points 5, 4, 2 & 1 are all the same person. And the true architect of our downfall, Ed Woodward. There’s been no vision or continuity of thought there at all all, we’ve just flip flopped from one quick fix to another and never stuck at any of them long enough to allow it to work. Managers fired at the first signs of problems, new manager comes in with a completely different approach and all of a sudden half of our side are dead wood again. It’s not just the changing of managers thats the issue. It’s the complete change in philosophy each time we change manager. I’ve no doubt at all we’ll give the gegen pressing a go for 18-24 months before we decide actually that’s a load of crap and go for a pep light approach with possession based football, rendering half the squad redundant and unsuitable again. 18-24 months later we’ll decide that’s a bust too and go back to our “United way” again.

Pick an ethos, stick with it and if it doesn’t work, find another manager with a similar philosophy who can make it work with the squad we have built.

Unlike many on here I don’t think there was a lot wrong with what Ole was trying to do, he just wasn’t a good enough manager to pull it off. A new manager with a similar philosophy could probably have come in and made a few tweaks, weeded out a few undesirables and we’d have been good to go.

 

[OleTheGreat]

It has always been our midfield. We haven't had a good defensive midfielder since Michael Carrick. It is freaking crazy that a club as big as United haven't recognized that we have a problem in midfield for so many seasons. If you asked any United fan, he/she will definitely agree that we haven't recruited a good midfielder (excluding PP and BF because they are attacking players rather than those with defensive qualities). This is one problem that has haunted us for a long long time and this is probably the reason we haven't improved and the forward players are getting frustrated because they aren't getting any supply. Bruno gets on the ball and tries something every time because we just cannot hold onto the ball otherwise. Fred, Mctominay should not start for United. They should either come off the bench or play against lower teams or in case we have an injury. Just get someone like Neves, Calvin Philips, Rice or Tchouameni and you will see the difference, they will potentially unlock the front 4 and the goals will rain and everything will fall in place. Also if Ralf Rangnick thinks 4-2-2-2 will work with this United squad, he's mistaken and will suffer the consequences.

 

[AndyMUFC86]

Anyone blaming Sir Alex for our problems now should be facing a permanent ban. He made the club what it is now and it has been widely reported by many credible journalists like Stone that he had virtually no more power at the club. He’s a figurehead and a legend enjoying his retirement. Piss off OP for even including Sir Alex. Piss off to anyone who’a gullible enough to believe that he’s still leading any decisions at the club.

After 27 years, he owed this club nothing else when he retired and any competent club run by good owners would have had a proper succession plan in place. This falls firmly onto the glazers. The fact you made a list and included Sir Alex shows you don’t have a clue. You spout nonsense. The simplest argument is usually the most sensible one and it’s the GLAZERS and only them that are the problem.

Amen, I couldn’t have put it better myself. It makes my blood boil when people try to fabricate some sort of blame onto the greatest manager of all time who gave us nothing but success

 

[Marwood]

I do agree with your assessment of the players I just find it difficult to give most blame the managers. Here are some quotes from Van Gaal that I think helps put into perspective how much blame they should receive.

Van Gaal told Voetbal International: 'Manchester United did not have the qualities to become champions and had an outdated selection with 10 players over 30, five over 35.

'So I told them I was going to rejuvenate and which players should come. I didn't get one of those.

'Then you end up in a different segment and as a coach you have to push your boundaries. You don't expect that at the richest club in the world.

'A turnover of £600m and can't buy the players you need. You should buy number one and not number seven.’’

He is saying they got him 7th choice targets, I am sure just like Mourinho that they wanted world class players or talents. I am assuming that they were told that it’s either these players or nothing. In that respect then I do agree that they are guilty of not caring about the clubs money. They should receive a lot of blame for accepting players they didn’t want.

Has LvG ever taken responsibility for anything that happened at United?

He's just a huge ego. Although I find him entertaining I can't buy into anything he's says because he blames everyone but himself.

He wanted Di Maria, was on record as saying so. He got him. Blind and Depay were surely his choices as well. The rest I suppose none of us know exactly how it works. But I don't buy this 7th choice stuff. Plus his sales were rubbish, that's definitely on him.

He was just a shocking appointment. Yeah the overall structure at the club is ultimately responsible but a top manager can overcome that and still perform. He set us back years

 

[mctrials23]

Pick an ethos, stick with it and if it doesn’t work, find another manager with a similar philosophy who can make it work with the squad we have built.

I agree but if we want to be at the top table again, that ethos has to reflect that of the top teams in the world. There is not a single team that competes for trophies on a consistent basis that doesn't play a reasonably similar style of football. They dominate possession, stifle the opposition and aim to recover the ball as quickly as possible when they lose it. They are highly technical and highly coached and every player knows their job on the pitch and that of the players around them. You can't just pick a style of football and expect that to compete with more complete styles that the likes of Liverpool, City and Bayern are playing.

Unlike many on here I don’t think there was a lot wrong with what Ole was trying to do, he just wasn’t a good enough manager to pull it off. A new manager with a similar philosophy could probably have come in and made a few tweaks, weeded out a few undesirables and we’d have been good to go.

This is the problem. Ole wasn't building anything that could compete at the top levels of the game. It was very hard to know what he was even trying to do most of the time but the only times we ever looked remotely effective was when we played on the counter attack. There are very very few top sides that play that style of football to any real end and they are always second tier sides trying to compete with far better funded sides.

Its the reason Ole shouldn't have been given the time he was. Even if he was far better at what he did (which he clearly wasn't), the style of football he tried to play was not something that would have us winning leagues or european cups.

 

[redshaw]

It comes from the top, so that's the board and the owner(s). Glazer hires these people and has kept them on that run the club poorly by hiring the wrong managers, not pursuing the better ones, rewarding average players with big contracts, keeping surplus players on. The whole family casual nature of the club has gone too far, there's a lack of seriousness and competence from the people that the Glazers have trusted and this sets the tone for the whole club.

You only have to go through the managers they've hired since Fergie. the people who run the club seem to have a knack of nearly everything they touch football related turns to shit. Said it before but it's like a day stock trader that loses 90% of their trades. We've had a billion wasted by fools that shouldn't be there. Even the law of averages should've had better results but they're so good at failing at this football thing.

 

[Drifter]

The buck stops with the Glazers, Woodward and players

 

[minoo-utd]

I agree but if we want to be at the top table again, that ethos has to reflect that of the top teams in the world. There is not a single team that competes for trophies on a consistent basis that doesn't play a reasonably similar style of football. They dominate possession, stifle the opposition and aim to recover the ball as quickly as possible when they lose it. They are highly technical and highly coached and every player knows their job on the pitch and that of the players around them. You can't just pick a style of football and expect that to compete with more complete styles that the likes of Liverpool, City and Bayern are playing.



This is the problem. Ole wasn't building anything that could compete at the top levels of the game. It was very hard to know what he was even trying to do most of the time but the only times we ever looked remotely effective was when we played on the counter attack. There are very very few top sides that play that style of football to any real end and they are always second tier sides trying to compete with far better funded sides.

Its the reason Ole shouldn't have been given the time he was. Even if he was far better at what he did (which he clearly wasn't), the style of football he tried to play was not something that would have us winning leagues or european cups.

 

[Beans]

I agree but if we want to be at the top table again, that ethos has to reflect that of the top teams in the world. There is not a single team that competes for trophies on a consistent basis that doesn't play a reasonably similar style of football. They dominate possession, stifle the opposition and aim to recover the ball as quickly as possible when they lose it. They are highly technical and highly coached and every player knows their job on the pitch and that of the players around them. You can't just pick a style of football and expect that to compete with more complete styles that the likes of Liverpool, City and Bayern are playing.



This is the problem. Ole wasn't building anything that could compete at the top levels of the game. It was very hard to know what he was even trying to do most of the time but the only times we ever looked remotely effective was when we played on the counter attack. There are very very few top sides that play that style of football to any real end and they are always second tier sides trying to compete with far better funded sides.

Its the reason Ole shouldn't have been given the time he was. Even if he was far better at what he did (which he clearly wasn't), the style of football he tried to play was not something that would have us winning leagues or european cups.

Well said, we've been dire to watch, we haven't be able to hold the ball when pressed for years. We need players with technical ability on the ball, who can actually punish a defender closing him down by going around him. We're so far away is scary.

 

[ManchesterManchester]

Has LvG ever taken responsibility for anything that happened at United?

He's just a huge ego. Although I find him entertaining I can't buy into anything he's says because he blames everyone but himself.

He wanted Di Maria, was on record as saying so. He got him. Blind and Depay were surely his choices as well. The rest I suppose none of us know exactly how it works. But I don't buy this 7th choice stuff. Plus his sales were rubbish, that's definitely on him.

He was just a shocking appointment. Yeah the overall structure at the club is ultimately responsible but a top manager can overcome that and still perform. He set us back years

Yeah your right about Di Maria and ok I will give you Depay and Blind haha. Although to be fair to him Depay has come good in the end but probably needed to leave to grow up and fulfil his potential.

Yeah I agree on the bad appointment. It hurts me to say Van Gaal was a bad manager though just because I think he’s a great character like you do. It would of been great if we had young Van Gaal but of course we had the best coach in the world when he was in his prime!

We will have to agree to disagree as to transfers being largely his fault . Not that it matters, wether it’s his fault or the boards, it’s not a good thing and results in the same outcome of us being screwed haha.