Film Martin Scorsese - Marvel movies are 'not cinema'

[caid]

I see comicbook movies more a continuation of the Cold War era films where the audience was always supposed to cheer for the virtuous Americans upholding liberty and virtue, and scowl at the evil foreigners, usually Russian or attempting an unremarkable Eastern European accent. Films like Rambo, etc.

Though I suppose Westerns were the precursor so you're not exactly wrong (i.e. the good guys vs. dem 'injuns!).

I kind of feel like thats a tiny bit of a misrepresentation of Marvel. The stories were kind of progressive when they were written, its trivial stuff now 60 years later but it just kind of seems like they're an ill fit for the box your trying to shove them in. Like all 3 Captain America movies are about him rebelling against a corrupt and detached american government. The 2nd film had a villain with a shit russian accent but he was looking for revenge for the avengers basically killing his family as an obvious metaphor for the american government dropping bombs on civilians. The justice porn, vigilante angle fits much more than the Chritopher Reeve truth, justice and the american way shtick which just isn't used.
I think their closer to old school adventure movies personally. The kind Indiana Jones paid homage to. I dont think theres any real world meaning or relevance to be taken from the most recent thor movie beyond jeff goldblum is neat.

 

[Oldyella]

Perhaps an interesting parallel are Westerns? I can't really name that many 'blockbuster' Westerns though other than the Spaghetti Westerns and maybe some John Wayne ones.

Definitely how I view them. Westerns were all the rage for a period, and slowly people's tastes changed and we saw less of them. Still see them but far less than studios previously churned out.

 

[Oldyella]

I kind of feel like thats a tiny bit of a misrepresentation of Marvel. The stories were kind of progressive when they were written, its trivial stuff now 60 years later but it just kind of seems like they're an ill fit for the box your trying to shove them in. Like all 3 Captain America movies are about him rebelling against a corrupt and detached american government. The 2nd film had a villain with a shit russian accent but he was looking for revenge for the avengers basically killing his family as an obvious metaphor for the american government dropping bombs on civilians. The justice porn, vigilante angle fits much more than the Chritopher Reeve truth, justice and the american way shtick which just isn't used.
I think their closer to old school adventure movies personally. The kind Indiana Jones paid homage to. I dont think theres any real world meaning or relevance to be taken from the most recent thor movie beyond jeff goldblum is neat.

Very true. Compare these to the Tobey Maguire spiderman movies from Sony, that had Americans throwing garbage at the villain and saying how they wouldn't be beaten in the first movie, and trying to hold off doc octopus in the 2nd. Could just be people being a lot more cynical nowadays and scripts match that.

 

[Cascarino]

It's seldom pointed out that they're also justice-porn to placate the masses with little packet squirts of virtue in a world where the 0.1% are getting away with everything and driving everyone over a cliff in the process.

It's a pretty weird situation when one thinks about it. But also very natural. Personally I don't think it's a coincidence at all that these movies are coming to a head as hypercapitalism sucks the morals out of vast swaths of society and replaces them with serf-values. There's a lot of overlap with the peasant class in 'the old days' going to church and venting.

Mass consumerism. Mass zombification. Vast armies of people plugged into the theater seats more-or-less simultaneously worldwide like obedient acolytes whenever one of these movies drops, then emerging from the cavern and hi-fiving each other on social media.

While I think this is an insightful post, can’t this argument be applied to most forms of media/entertainment? You’re active in Star Wars threads, I’m not really a movie/tv person but I watch an unhealthy amount of football. Surely the same applies to those past times, they’re as much opium to the masses right? I’m not sure how your comment is specific to marvel films

 

[lsd]

Scorsese dissed Marvel movies and now we're all shitting on Marvel movies and posting clips of Marvel fans acting crazy.

I mean he criticised them in was it 2019? and Marvel fans are still hurting over it

 

[Shakesy]

Scorsese clearly has AIDS

@Peter van der Gea

 

[hellhunter]

Scorsese clearly has AIDS

@Peter van der Gea

Perfectly executed

 

[Shakesy]

Perfectly executed

Rather late than never, eh?

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Perfectly executed

Scorsese clearly has AIDS

@Peter van der Gea

Why are you executing a film director using AIDS? Just give him covid.

 

[Vidyoyo]

I kind of feel like thats a tiny bit of a misrepresentation of Marvel. The stories were kind of progressive when they were written, its trivial stuff now 60 years later but it just kind of seems like they're an ill fit for the box your trying to shove them in. Like all 3 Captain America movies are about him rebelling against a corrupt and detached american government. The 2nd film had a villain with a shit russian accent but he was looking for revenge for the avengers basically killing his family as an obvious metaphor for the american government dropping bombs on civilians. The justice porn, vigilante angle fits much more than the Chritopher Reeve truth, justice and the american way shtick which just isn't used.
I think their closer to old school adventure movies personally. The kind Indiana Jones paid homage to. I dont think theres any real world meaning or relevance to be taken from the most recent thor movie beyond jeff goldblum is neat.

Sorry I didn't mean to suggest they rely on the same political references but rather that they're a continuation of the same Good vs. Bad Guy premise that made westerns and cold war era movies so popular. The actual politics tend to fit with whatever the audience is particularly bothered about at any moment in time, which usually translates into the good guy battling against those same forces and the audience cheering them on to do so (like literally cheering apparently). I see all these movies as basically being built around this same structure.

 

[hungrywing]

Brilliant take. I've been talking to a friend along these lines and how especially the Marvel movies really dull critical thinking in teens and kids and reinforce this whole "good guy with a gun" mentality in America and make people think everything is as simple as finding that larger than life "hero" (IE Trump for many). I really think Marvel movies are deteriorating the power of art while reinforcing unintelligent consumerism.

It's sad to see theatres canceling showings of a classic film like West Side Story and a brilliant noir novel made into a movie in 2021 in Nightmare Alley just to try to grift out more profit. But hey, nothing matters more than profit-making, the ultimate virtue in a society like this.

It's interesting(?) how the 'lone hero' Hollywood trope contributed greatly to the US's current cultural situation. (I think the automobile is another culprit)

@R.N7 once proposed an idea that only filmmakers who had seriously proven their chops on multiple levels (artistic, technical, philosophical) should be allowed to work. Like a driver's license but for filmmaking. Preserve free speech/expression, just raise the bar way higher. We kind of already do with with 'college degrees' and the job market; just do it with PhDs and filmmaking.

While I think this is an insightful post, can’t this argument be applied to most forms of media/entertainment? You’re active in Star Wars threads, I’m not really a movie/tv person but I watch an unhealthy amount of football. Surely the same applies to those past times, they’re as much opium to the masses right? I’m not sure how your comment is specific to marvel films

Hmm. I don't think I meant it to be. Did it come across as such? I tried to illustrate the 'this has been going on forever, of course' angle with the analogy to churchgoing. Vidyoyo had already covered the most of the mass-market/escapism angle and I was just adding a little dollop onto that; AKA "there's also a bit of churchgoing in all of it". If this were an academic environment, maybe saying 'justice porn tailored to a globalized sensitivity' instead of just 'justice porn'? I do think the sheer scale of them being 'global market events' and the globalization of values across borders could be new specific aspects worth pondering.

(Also, have you seen me absolutely rip into the Star Wars sequel trilogy and how it was made by a soulless money-man (woman) without a creative bone in her body, very much akin to how our club's been run by a similar creature for the past decade? Not making a point, just venting on how some money-people think they can just assemble 'expensive shit' into a working product)

 

[Cascarino]

Hmm. I don't think I meant it to be. Did it come across as such? I tried to illustrate the 'this has been going on forever, of course' angle with the analogy to churchgoing. Vidyoyo had already covered the most of the mass-market/escapism angle and I was just adding a little dollop onto that; AKA "there's also a bit of churchgoing in all of it". If this were an academic environment, maybe saying 'justice porn tailored to a globalized sensitivity' instead of just 'justice porn'? I do think the sheer scale of them being 'global market events' and the globalization of values across borders could be new specific aspects worth pondering.

(Also, have you seen me absolutely rip into the Star Wars sequel trilogy and how it was made by a soulless money-man (woman) without a creative bone in her body, very much akin to how our club's been run by a similar creature for the past decade? Not making a point, just venting on how some money-people think they can just assemble 'expensive shit' into a working product)

Ahh fair point, I missed the nod to churchgoing, in that case I retract my comment and pretty much agree with you. And I had seen your SW comments (and agree with them), I was mistakenly thinking of your and the others points solely through the prism of it being unique to marvel films, and was wondering what separated it from other forms of entertainment,

The bolded is also interesting, and also something I agree with. The way in which they've become ubiquitous is pre

 

[caid]

Sorry I didn't mean to suggest they rely on the same political references but rather that they're a continuation of the same Good vs. Bad Guy premise that made westerns and cold war era movies so popular. The actual politics tend to fit with whatever the audience is particularly bothered about at any moment in time, which usually translates into the good guy battling against those same forces and the audience cheering them on to do so (like literally cheering apparently). I see all these movies as basically being built around this same structure.

I think i'm a bit defensive when it comes to them really. I read a lot of these stories in the 80's when i was 5 or 6 and in a lot of cases i think they're kind of wholesome in a roundabout way that only a comic book nerd would care about. Maybe thats a common theme to those giving scorcese grief years after a throwaway (pretty accurate) comment. They're beloved childhood memories that people are irrational about. Maybe it kind of traps people in a different era where the stories had a different meaning to today when they're far more cynical and safe and blinds them to negative influence they have now.

I also think hollywood has gotten better at manipulating emotions. Theres a kind of string music thats incessantly used in sentimental, sweet scenes and my eyes start to water as soon as the music starts. It can be the most cynical, badly written, dogshit movie and i'll have a lump in my throat regardless. Its kind of annoying how movies have almost trained emotions they can trigger on command for me. Dystopian really.

 

[Moby]

You really shouldn't be supporting film studios the same way as a sporting team.

Who exactly owns and finances your favourite football teams and pays the wages for your amazing idols to be able to perform at your club? Being snobbish about big corps while losing their nuts for players covered from head to toe in sponsors.

 

[Withnail]

It's a fecking cinema though. Be quiet, you cnuts.

This.

 

[MiceOnMeth]

Cried watching Endgame the other day. Bringing the total number of movies I've cried while watching to 3.

Endgame, Titanic and.. Click

The fact they stuck the landing for Endgame is pretty phenomenal. To give a satisfactory conclusion to a 20+ movie interbranching saga while planting the seeds for the future is no small feat.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

 

[SalfordRed18]

Infinity war.

 

[Roane]

Definitely how I view them. Westerns were all the rage for a period, and slowly people's tastes changed and we saw less of them. Still see them but far less than studios previously churned out.

Read an article a while back that said something along the lines of westerns being popular in say America and even UK but the Chinese market is what is making films blockbusters.

Basically the cgi ladened stuff is what will get made as it generates the most money globally.

 

[Vidyoyo]

 

[FrankDrebin]

 

[RedDevilRoshi]

Infinity war.

That’s the only exception out of God knows how
many Marvel films there have been. Would like to see more endings like the one in Infinity War but don’t know if it will happen. That meme picture does have a lot of truth behind it tbf.

 

[hungrywing]

This fellow, who wrote this freaking book, loved the MCU.

Eat it, you Americanized pizza-muncher. Or should it be Americanized-pizza muncher.

 

[lsd]

That’s the only exception out of God knows how
many Marvel films there have been. Would like to see more endings like the one in Infinity War but don’t know if it will happen. That meme picture does have a lot of truth behind it tbf.

Was that not always like end of part one and everyone knew there was another film coming?

 

[entropy]

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[Vidyoyo]

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I know it's a joke but it's still somewhat true. I watched Back to the Future over Christmas and I was like, man this seems like a genuinely rich film by comparison to a lot of comic-book movies. The film builds our relationship to the characters in the first 20 minutes, setting up a quandary that the audience is rewarded for getting through, offering a lot of humour and pathos as it plays out (thinking his dad going from nerdy dweeb to nerdy dweeb who has the courage to biff Biff's nose).

I've said before (I think) but comic-book movies are bereft of this because they rely too much on the audience naturally siding with the hero before the fact. They do nothing to convince you to care about them within the story. The writing is lazy.

 

[Sweet Square]

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Overall agree as most big budget films now just look like tv shows(My guess would be they are designed to look good on a tv screen). Although Michael Mann has shown that digital can be very impressive(The night scenes in Miami Vice and Collateral are some of the best I've seen).

Somewhat true. I watched Back to the Future over Christmas and I was like, man this seems like a genuinely rich film by comparison to a lot of comic-book movies.

Even fecking Die Hard looks like a richly deep film when you consider it's about a normal bro who just wants to get shit done so he can enjoy some time with his family.

I've said before (I think) but comic-book movies are bereft of emotion because they rely too much on the audience naturally siding with the hero before the fact. They do nothing to convince you to care about them via the story.

Watched one of the Sam Raimi Spider Man films during Christmas and the difference between it and a standard modern day superhero film was kinda of insane. Also depressing because there was a time where super hero film weren't shite.

 

[Sweet Square]

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[SuperiorXI]

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Is he advocating for this eventuality? The guy that was involved in Good Will Hunting?

 

[BusbyMalone]

Yeah, I watched the first Sam Raimi Spider-Man film the other day again, and it has so much charm to it. Some of the visuals are obviously a little dated, and you can very much tell that they're on sets that look a little ropey in some shots, but who cares? To me, that's what makes them so special. It's a nice escape from the immaculately made, uber-expensive, almost "perfect" worlds that are now the norm.

Similar to Burton's Batman. That film looks fecking incredible! Yes, they're obviously sets, but again - that's the charm of these movies. At the risk of sounding a little twee, that's the "magic" of cinema and filmmaking to me. I adore that look. There's obviously more than one way to make a film, and CGI can be used to great effect and is a tool that I'm not automatically against, but you do lose a lot when it's relied on so readily.

 

[Mike Smalling]

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Filmmaking has largely gone backwards in terms of visuals. Movies that rely heavily on CGI just look fake most of the time. The golden age was the 00's, where practical effects and CGI were combined. The best example is The Lord of the Rings, where you had actual people, in actual costumes, walking around in actual landscapes and set. Compare that to the CGI nightmare that was The Hobbit trilogy.

 

[SuperiorXI]

Filmmaking has largely gone backwards in terms of visuals. Movies that rely heavily on CGI just look fake most of the time. The golden age was the 00's, where practical effects and CGI were combined. The best example is The Lord of the Rings, where you had actual people, in actual costumes, walking around in actual landscapes and set. Compare that to the CGI nightmare that was The Hobbit trilogy.

Agreed on the LOTR/Hobbit point. I wish filmmakers would go back to siding more with real visual effects rather than CGI... a lot of the time when creative people are limited by something the end result is better.

 

[hungrywing]

Agreed on the LOTR/Hobbit point. I wish filmmakers would go back to siding more with real visual effects rather than CGI... a lot of the time when creative people are limited by something the end result is better.

That reminds me: when I first heard about the 'Gorilla walkers in the next Star Wars movie' I allowed myself to hope that we were getting an awesome jungle-seige on a real-location mountain fortress with crazy fighter combat and jedi awesomeness all around.

Then Rian Johnson happened.

 

[HTG]

Agreed on the LOTR/Hobbit point. I wish filmmakers would go back to siding more with real visual effects rather than CGI... a lot of the time when creative people are limited by something the end result is better.

Won’t happen unless the people working on the cgi stuff start unionising.

 

[SuperiorXI]

Won’t happen unless the people working on the cgi stuff start unionising.

That or there's some kind of shift in the trends of cinemagoers... I honestly don't see the appeal of heavy CGI, it looks stupid and it's hardly 'acting' when you can fix any little thing with the computer...

 

[berbatrick]

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[Sweet Square]

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[Kevin]

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Delighted with this news. Enjoy your snobby michellin star french cuisine movies on the small screen old men.

 

[berbatrick]

Delighted with this news. Enjoy your snobby michellin star french cuisine movies on the small screen old men.

too lazy to do this properly, but ...

 

[Vidyoyo]

I am also delighted. Keep the riff raff in the Odeons and Cineworlds, I say.