Declan Rice

[bond19821982]

It's quite funny. On one side the caf only wants big name signings, EPL proven players who are constantly hyped.
On the other hand you guys complain that the board overpays and just randomly buys expensive players who don't really for into the team or your playing style.

Then you envy other teams who bought young, relatively unknown players and develop them into top players.

Look at Bayern first 11, Müller, Gnabry, Kimmich, Goretzka, Davies, Coman, Musiala were all rather unproven players that Bayern developed into top players. If United would have bought any of them at the time Bayern had bought these players, the vast majority here would have been totally underwhelmed and questioned the boards decision.
I remember well when Bayern got Gnabry and Coman in line to replace Robbery many here were saying it's a huge downgrade and will bring the end of Bayern's dominance.

Now Rangnick, who had a proven track record in building successful teams, suggests to buy some young, rather unknown players and immediately many here come out saying they are not good enough to wear the United shirt.

You should have learned your lessons from paying record transfer fees for Pogba, Maguire or Sancho.

Paying big was never the issue. It's that our managers lacked the tactical knowledge to get the best or we overpaid for bunch of average players.

Bayern is no way a comparison though. You are having a monopoly for the players from one of the most talented countries (football standpoint) and you can always take a chance or bully to sign players from lower league players.

 

[ForeverRed1]

Good player but very expensive. Go get 2 £50million midfielders instead.

 

[KennyBurner]

You say he's being smart - but who is there to go for? Drop some alternatives in other leagues, at his age with his seniority + skill set? There really aren’t [m]any. Rice is a very good player who has the price tag of one.

Your worst post in a while. It would be good for us to stay far away from him even if he was rated 40 million. There are many players like him who are good at protecting the defense but at a club like United we actually need a DM that can also dictate play and Rice cannot.

 

[giorno]

This might be the most ridiculous take I've ever heard. Did you ever watch him in his prime?

Yes i did. He was FAR too limited in attack to be be worth anything to a modern top side

 

[B. Munich]

Paying big was never the issue. It's that our managers lacked the tactical knowledge to get the best or we overpaid for bunch of average players.

I don't think this is the managers fault, at least they aren't the main culprits. Players need to fit into the system of play. If there isn't a system in place and managers with different playing philosophies are replaced randomly (Mourinho after LvG), it doesn't matter whether you spend big or not. You still never get the best out of these players like e.g. Pep is doing at Man City.

Bayern is no way a comparison though. You are having a monopoly for the players from one of the most talented countries (football standpoint) and you can always take a chance or bully to sign players from lower league players.

That's a lazy excuse. Gnabry played at Arsenal. When Bayern signed him a lot here posted how deep Bayern have fallen to downgrade their wingers from Robbery to Gnabry, Davies played in Canada and was even recommended to United before he signed for Bayern. Musiala played in the youth of Chelsea, Kimmich at League 2 outfit RB Leipzig.
Sané, Werner, Havertz or Gündogan didn't join Bayern, nor did Firmino, Pulisic or de Bryne.

Since 2009 Bayern is playing the same system and therefore they can easily identify the players that fit best into the club.
There is also always a core of players that ensure new arrivals are well integrated and adopt the Bayern mentality.

 

[DWelbz19]

Your worst post in a while. It would be good for us to stay far away from him even if he was rated 40 million. There are many players like him who are good at protecting the defense but at a club like United we actually need a DM that can also dictate play and Rice cannot.

Does that mean they're always bad, or this is an uncharacteristic drop?

Rice has limitations, but his progression as a player is constant. He definitely isn't one to dictate play but his progressive carrying of the ball is something he has that nobody else in the midfield does. His ball-carrying stats are actually better than Haidara's (whose main assets are getting the ball up the pitch pretty quickly).

Is Declan Rice a must-buy? I don't think so. Is Declan Rice a very good midfielder who seems to be getting underrated by some posters? Yes.

Whoever we buy, I think we need two central midfielders anyway. McFred isn't good enough to start, Matic is too old, and Pogba cannot be relied upon to stay fit for a full season.

 

[Bebestation]

Your worst post in a while. It would be good for us to stay far away from him even if he was rated 40 million. There are many players like him who are good at protecting the defense but at a club like United we actually need a DM that can also dictate play and Rice cannot.

This is what I don't see.

Every other alternative that people choose play more like Fred - trying to press the ball as high as CAM and low as CDM.

Rice doesn't play like that- he defends like how Carrick did by being in the right position at the right time; even if their passing is no where near the same.

I watch Tchouameni, Haidara and so many more, and they are constant running all over the place, making slide tackles on players that got past them whilst they were on the other side of the pitch pressing in the first place.

Like who exactly plays like Rice as he does purely sitting in front of the CB'S nearly most of the game?

Maybe Ndidi who won't be cheap either and maybe the Sporting Lisbon guy - but I wouldn't say there is alot to fight over, especially compared to the next Kante/Fred type presser that is available everywhere in every league.

 

[Cassidy]

Does that mean they're always bad, or this is an uncharacteristic drop?

Rice has limitations, but his progression as a player is constant. He definitely isn't one to dictate play but his progressive carrying of the ball is something he has that nobody else in the midfield does. His ball-carrying stats are actually better than Haidara's (whose main assets are getting the ball up the pitch pretty quickly).

Is Declan Rice a must-buy? I don't think so. Is Declan Rice a very good midfielder who seems to be getting underrated by some posters? Yes.

Whoever we buy, I think we need two central midfielders anyway. McFred isn't good enough to start, Matic is too old, and Pogba cannot be relied upon to stay fit for a full season.

Agree with most of this, however, I wouldn't recommend spending 100m on Rice or anything above 50m, at that price we can look for alternatives and likely sign 2 CMs for around the fee being banded around for Rice
Same could have been said about Maguire when we signed him too

 

[Cassidy]

This is what I don't see.

Every other alternative that people choose play more like Fred - trying to press the ball as high as CAM and low as CDM.

Rice doesn't play like that- he defends like how Carrick did by being in the right position at the right time; even if their passing is no where near the same.

I watch Tchouameni, Haidara and so many more, and they are constant running all over the place, making slide tackles on players that got past them whilst they were on the other side of the pitch.

Like who exactly plays like Rice as he does purely sitting in front of the CB'S nearly most of the game?

Do we even play anyone in this role?

 

[Bebestation]

Do we even play anyone in this role?

It's why I want him, have a proper anchorman style protector that can let another midfielder infront dictate play at ease or get forward and attack - especially in a midfield 3.

Our Casemiro, Our Busquets- not Our Modric, Xavi or Kroos.

 

[Cassidy]

It's why I want him, have a proper anchorman style protector that can let another midfielder infront dictate play at ease or get forward and attack - especially in a midfield 3.

Our Casemiro, Our Busquets- not Our Modric, Xavi or Kroos.

Every single one of these players added significantly to the forward play in their teams, some of them are even ones who dicated play, Rice isn't like them

 

[KennyBurner]

This is what I don't see.

Every other alternative that people choose play more like Fred - trying to press the ball as high as CAM and low as CDM.

Rice doesn't play like that- he defends like how Carrick did by being in the right position at the right time; even if their passing is no where near the same.

I watch Tchouameni, Haidara and so many more, and they are constant running all over the place, making slide tackles on players that got past them whilst they were on the other side of the pitch.

Like who exactly plays like Rice as he does purely sitting in front of the CB'S nearly most of the game?

Ndidi comes to mind. He is even better than rice at protecting the defense and stopping any threats. If there is one thing im very sure of its that Rice is an average player. He can carry the ball forward but for the teams we face him progressing the ball doesn't matter because he cant dribble or disguise any progressive passes. I still dont understand why any United fan would want this profile of a player after watching the likes of Carrick, busquets, motta etc. The only way we become an elite team is fielding an 11 that is comfortable on the ball, Im talking every position is comfortable on the ball.

 

[KennyBurner]

It's why I want him, have a proper anchorman style protector that can let another midfielder infront dictate play at ease or get forward and attack - especially in a midfield 3.

Our Casemiro, Our Busquets- not Our Modric, Xavi or Kroos.

This is a very bold claim from you about Rice. Everyone you've listed can play under pressure other than Rice. have we all forgotten how easy it was to pressure him during the worldcup. he was even outclassed by his partner that plays for leeds.

 

[NoPace]

Watched the Leeds game as it had the highest rating of games that day, so paid special attention to Rice:

Positives:
-Carries the ball forward incredibly well, though Leeds is the ideal opponent for that because they man mark so much that huge straight lines open up. Looks like Roy Keane at Forest with his ball carrying and simple but smart passing when he's doing it.
-Teammates rate him on the ball, give it to him when covered
-Excellent tackler when the ball is played into midfield by opposing defenders. Won several balls that created chances. Perfect for what Rangnick wants.

Negatives:
-Doesn't actually seem that interested in making himself available for the ball in midfield
-Maybe Moyes wants this, but he ended up so wide a lot that Lanzini was alone in midfield when they lost the ball that Leeds could run through the middle too easily


Overall:
-Good player, if playing for a big team he probably needs to play in a double pivot with someone who really wants the ball a lot like a Kovacic type, which we don't have. If England are lucky he'll go to City, learn passing football and England will have their first world class non-attacking midfielder since I don't know, the war?

 

[Bebestation]

Every single one of these players added significantly to the forward play in their teams, some of them are even ones who dicated play, Rice isn't like them

I mean fine I wasn't trying to say that he is comparable to them - it was more about how Modric and Kroos played before they got Casemiro vs how they played once they got Casemiro protecting them from behind.

Rice can do that for me with the style he plays. He does it for Soucek who is on the other side of the pitch whilst Rice can help the defenders a bit by attempting to eat the attack.

Anyway, he is a very hard player to convince people who don't rate him and who knows maybe you will be right.

 

[NoPace]

This is a very bold claim from you about Rice. Everyone you've listed can play under pressure other than Rice. have we all forgotten how easy it was to pressure him during the worldcup. he was even outclassed by his partner that plays for leeds.

Casemiro doesn't do much going forward on the ball itself, but he's quite good at little flicks and one twos and hitting Kroos and Modric with 5-10 yard balls. Rice could certainly get there, but he isn't yet.

What they share is the athleticism, hunger and tackling to press up the pitch while also playing DM.

 

[Dan600]

I understand why there is hype around Rice, but at £100M, could we not get both Phillips and Ward-Prowse for the same, maybe even with some change left over? Not saying we should sign both but just that I think there is better value for money out there. I'd personally be looking at Ward-Prowse over Rice given the quality of his set piece delivery, and Phillips has seemed far more composed on the ball than Rice to me in the PL. From the limited time I watched them in the Champions League I would even be looking at Ajax's Gravenberch and Sporting's Palhinha over Rice.

But yeah, unless he's gonna be costing £50-60M tops I think we should be looking elsewhere, we need to be wiser with our money.

 

[romufc]

We need to learn from our mistakes. anything more than £60m we should just not even bother and walk away. I get he is a good player but he is nowhere near the level of a £100m player.

If a price of £100m is quoted, I start comparing with Modric, Kroos, Kimmich type players but can to all.

De Jong who is probably better than Rice went for less so we should get our scouts working to find a player that suits.

 

[Cassidy]

I mean fine I wasn't trying to say that he is comparable to them - it was more about how Modric and Kroos played before they got Casemiro vs how they played once they got Casemiro protecting them from behind.

Rice can do that for me with the style he plays. He does it for Soucek who is on the other side of the pitch whilst Rice can help the defenders a bit by attempting to eat the attack.

Anyway, he is a very hard player to convince people who don't rate him and who knows maybe you will be right.

I never said I didn't rate him by the way. I think he is a good player, just not 100m good or anything above 50m.
Also, I think our midfield might demand a bit more from him, especially against the press

He is a good player to sign, with another complementary midfielder for a reasonable fee. At 100m Id rather we go and find 2 more suitable midfielders for the same combined price or a little bit more

 

[Mike Smalling]

We need to learn from our mistakes. anything more than £60m we should just not even bother and walk away. I get he is a good player but he is nowhere near the level of a £100m player.

If a price of £100m is quoted, I start comparing with Modric, Kroos, Kimmich type players but can to all.

De Jong who is probably better than Rice went for less so we should get our scouts working to find a player that suits.

100%. You would hope we have learned our lesson from recently overpaying massively for English players in Maguire, AWB and possibly Sancho.

 

[OrcaFat]

What? No it isn't. Pretty sure 100m is roughly our yearly match day revenue.

Apologies, I wasn’t clear.

When we paid £3.75m for Keane it was a record fee for any player to an English club (more than Blackburn paid for Shearer around the same time). So it’s equivalent in the sense of the record now being £100m.

No-one is saying we will pay that much, I’m pretty sure we won’t. Then again, we would have loved to get Keane for £2m but you know the rest of that story.

 

[Lash]

Apologies, I wasn’t clear.

When we paid £3.75m for Keane it was a record fee for any player to an English club (more than Blackburn paid for Shearer around the same time). So it’s equivalent in the sense of the record now being £100m.

No-one is saying we will pay that much, I’m pretty sure we won’t. Then again, we would have loved to get Keane for £2m but you know the rest of that story.

Ah, I see what you mean now. Gotcha.

 

[sp_107]

Why |80M on |Rice when we can get some good DM's for less money because of their current contract situation or less market value

Zakaria / Camara / Touchameni / Haidara / Savic / Bellingham / Dejong

 

[OrcaFat]

Why |80M on |Rice when we can get some good DM's for less money because of their current contract situation or less market value

Zakaria / Camara / Touchameni / Haidara / Savic / Bellingham / Dejong

I think the general idea you suggest is much more likely than us blowing a massive wad on Rice. We’ll be after as many free transfers (especially famous players who are past it) cut price, bargain basement players we can get.

As for the players you list, some of them would be cheap but, I fear, most would be not quite as cheap as one might think and none of them are Prem-proven.

 

[Ogaranya]

The era of having technically deficient CDM whose job is only to tackle is long gone, modern managers don't use such midfield profile again.

We should be more interested in a deep lying playmaker who is also competent in defensive duties, Scholes was not scholes during his playing days because he can tackle, he was Scholes because he can tackle and also create chances from deep midfield and also he can dictate the tempo of the play from deep and also press resistant, Rice is not that, he is simply an English Sissoko, paying £100m will be a huge mistake.

Get Bissouma for around £40m if his case is settled by summer and he is cleared, and then Nevez for around £35m, a midfield pivot of Nevez and Bissouma will revitalize us and enable Bruno to roam freely in his 10 position.

 

[Beans]

I think the general idea you suggest is much more likely than us blowing a massive wad on Rice. We’ll be after as many free transfers (especially famous players who are past it) cut price, bargain basement players we can get.

As for the players you list, some of them would be cheap but, I fear, most would be not quite as cheap as one might think and none of them are Prem-proven.

Ralf has said that he never signs players in their 30s and is only looking to bring in players under a certain age, I think he suggested even 24 was too old.

Of course at a top team he might make a few exceptions, but he’s looking for the next thing.

 

[OrcaFat]

Ralf has said that he never signs players in their 30s and is only looking to bring in players under a certain age, I think he suggested even 24 was too old.

Of course at a top team he might make a few exceptions, but he’s looking for the next thing.

Yes, he has a lot of sense. Our board are the ones who keep buying the old fellas as we get them cheap and they have marketing value. We can only pray that they listen to RR!

 

[giorno]

Casemiro doesn't do much going forward on the ball itself, but he's quite good at little flicks and one twos and hitting Kroos and Modric with 5-10 yard balls. Rice could certainly get there, but he isn't yet.

What they share is the athleticism, hunger and tackling to press up the pitch while also playing DM.

Not true. He doesn't do much in the build up, but once the get to the final third he's a big part of the attack with distribution and off ball runs

 

[croadyman]

Good player but very expensive. Go get 2 £50million midfielders instead.

Yeah should go get a CDM and CM for that money

 

[NoPace]

Not true. He doesn't do much in the build up, but once the get to the final third he's a big part of the attack with distribution and off ball runs

Eh, I think that's overstating it.


Mostly set pieces. Any athletic DM playing next to the positionally deep Kroos and the box to box Modric would get a few goals going forward. Oriol Romeu might not, but Partey, Brozovic or Phillips would get as many in open play in that midfield 3 with their team's all around quality. But not as many on set pieces, he's quite good at attacking those for a DM.

He just has a bit more license than guys like Fabinho does by virtue of Kroos so rarely ever making runs in behind, and not being asked to 100% of the time stop counters

 

[giorno]

Eh, I think that's overstating it.


Mostly set pieces. Any athletic DM playing next to the positionally deep Kroos and the box to box Modric would get a few goals going forward. Oriol Romeu might not, but Partey, Brozovic or Phillips would get as many in open play in that midfield 3 with their team's all around quality. But not as many on set pieces, he's quite good at attacking those for a DM.

He just has a bit more license than guys like Fabinho does by virtue of Kroos so rarely ever making runs in behind, and not being asked to 100% of the time stop counters

Sure. That still doesn't change the fact he's an important piece for real madrid's attack

 

[Kostov]

Yup. Unless those players only have a year left on their contract, we're not getting anyone of any real quality for less than £40m. A player with the talent needed to play in midfield at a very high level is going to cost a lot. I don't think we can afford to take punts on cheap players. We need players that can come in and instantly provide quality to the first XI.

Stop playing smart. English players playing for English clubs are demonstrably and by every metric much more expensive than overseas talent. Maguire ring any bells? Just becuase Fred didn't pan out doesn't mean other purchases won't
If we pay more than 80 million for Rice, we need to have our heads examined.

Leicester bought Maguire the same time we bought Lindelof for 20 fecking milion less. English man from an English club for 20 million cheaper. Does that prove anything about your point? Plenty of overpriced players all over Europe, especially for a parody run club like Manchester United. 50m for Fred proves that perfectly.

 

[OrcaFat]

Leicester bought Maguire the same time we bought Lindelof for 20 fecking milion less. English man from an English club for 20 million cheaper. Does that prove anything about your point? Plenty of overpriced players all over Europe, especially for a parody run club like Manchester United. 50m for Fred proves that perfectly.

To add to that, I think all players, English or not, cost more for us than other clubs. The very fact we are interested seems to put 25% on the price at least. We rarely seem to get good value.

Not sure how we can get around it. The choice seems to be to cough up or buy players running out of contract or players nobody else really wants. It shouldn’t be true but it really seems to be that way.

Maybe I’m just paranoid and confused.

 

[Bebestation]

To add to that, I think all players, English or not, cost more for us than other clubs. The very fact we are interested seems to put 25% on the price at least. We rarely seem to get good value.

Not sure how we can get around it. The choice seems to be to cough up or buy players running out of contract or players nobody else really wants. It shouldn’t be true but it really seems to be that way.

Maybe I’m just paranoid and confused.

This is what I'm saying aswell. Players cost more for us than any other club because we go about telling everyone that we are the biggest club in the world just because we may be the richest.

Amad's transfer fee was shocking to me when we agreed to pay 41 million euros after just 76 mins of first team football for atalanta.

 

[lenny_1248]

we agreed to pay 41 million euros

18+19

 

[Deery]

I was thinking about the Amad transfer last night it really doesn’t make any sense, we spent so much money on him and he doesn’t seem to fit in the team at all.

When we needed a midfielder and a starting right winger it just seems a crazy transfer, another one that has Woodward written all over it..

 

[lloyd2wayne]

@devilish England took the lead in the euros at 2 mins and then the whole team went to park the bus as their tactic due to the managers decision.

It was nothing to do with just the midfielders - it was the whole team playing like a Mourinho team as soon as Shaw scored the goal at 2" mins.

Let's say its true that Rice was the reason that Italy controlled the game - England let in only 2 goals in the whole Euro 2021 tournament (I remember something about no shots on target until a certain point too), so just as people say he did shit all, he also did something too.

Let me see.. people want Tchouameni? Hoping that he doesn't turn out to be like Schneiderlin or Pogba? Our French flops? Hope he doesn't turn out like Greizmann the talk of the redcafe for 2 years who has been a massive flop as well playing in the same league he excelled at? The hype that Ndombele had at Monaco aswell and he can't even do sh*t at Spurs, every time he has one good game everyone dances their hope up once every 2 months. The hype of Ousamane Dembele and some guys still want him after costing millions and millions.

Hate this England players are overrated sh*t, acting like all these other players are always consistent. My arse.

Literally no Italian CM has been good enough in the PL either except Jorginho who is a Brazilian. Di canio & zola were more CAM & forwards.

Literally Pep has the option of turning City to a whole new Spanish team if he has wanted - but he went out of his way to buy walker, Stones, Grealish, Sterling whilst utilising both Foden and Palmer from his youth team.

And then we are supposed to think that utilising English players at an English club is useless.

And no, this act that people know what our transfer budget is bullshit aswell.

A CDM that can hold his position like Matic is not just a player we need to improve on, it's a player we do not have in the squad and stops us being able to play 3 man midfield formations.

Literally so many players are being linked who are more an upgrade on Fred than a replacement of Matic. Running all over the pitch chasing after the ball than protecting the defensive line like Matic does.

What about the free transfers? What about Tielemans? What about Kessie? What about Zakaria? A player like Tielemans would work wonders in midfield with Rice with each player covering each others weaknesses - and we have to pay 60 mil for a french midfielder who just might leave us on a free like Pogba is doing?

Not for me.

The only CM/CDM I want over Rice is Frenkie De Jong because they both have a history of playing in the defensive line and the midfield line - rather than pressing box to box players like Tchouameni who is more a Fred due to the way he is seen defending on the opposite side of the pitch in the positions you find CAM and then chasing back to slide tackle the players that have gotten a free role right in front of the CB'S that he was never covering.

He’s not all that, get over it. No mental gymnastics will make him a world class player.

 

[Berbaclass]

I was thinking about the Amad transfer last night it really doesn’t make any sense, we spent so much money on him and he doesn’t seem to fit in the team at all.

When we needed a midfielder and a starting right winger it just seems a crazy transfer, another one that has Woodward written all over it..

That’s been most of our signings.

 

[Berbaclass]

We really should have got him in the summer and used Lingard in the deal. Missed opportunity.

 

[Bebestation]

He’s not all that, get over it. No mental gymnastics will make him a world class player.

Why should I listen to you?

One of the main reasons I kind of like him is actually because of how some people don't get him, understand him or rate him.

It makes me feel that he is a bit of an intelligent player with world class off the ball playing ability that some people struggle to follow because Rice is playing an intelligent game that some people just can't follow and understand.

I feel like there is people who just follow the ball around for 90 mins when watching a football match and can't spot what Rice brings to the team because they are doing exactly that - following the football and the football only. Rice doesn't play like that and some people simply can't follow what he is doing.