The cafe is very aware that United needs a DM that can PASS and dribble yet this thread is always active. I don’t understand it?
Declan Rice
- Thread starter roonster09
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Gotta wonder how much people have seen of Rice when his defensive positioning and mobility are being questioned.
I think Declan Rice is a top top DM but he is not worth more than £50m. I don't care about English tax or anything, he isnt.
He is playing for a West Ham team that are set up defensively, Soucek holding his hand in the midfield with Fornals and Bowen tracking back.
When you move to a team where the DM is isolated, is he that good? can he get about the pitch?
Can he play in a team that faces a low block and find the killer pass? I have not seen that from him.
Finally, saw him at the Euros and we did well and everyone gassed him up, we never really controlled games, Italy came and dominated that midfield. He is not anywhere near the standards of say a Veratti, Rodri, Fabinho and those are the levels of players we need.
He is playing for a West Ham team that are set up defensively, Soucek holding his hand in the midfield with Fornals and Bowen tracking back.
When you move to a team where the DM is isolated, is he that good? can he get about the pitch?
Can he play in a team that faces a low block and find the killer pass? I have not seen that from him.
Finally, saw him at the Euros and we did well and everyone gassed him up, we never really controlled games, Italy came and dominated that midfield. He is not anywhere near the standards of say a Veratti, Rodri, Fabinho and those are the levels of players we need.
Who is near that standard we could get though and I mean realistically
I feel the exact same - never really been convinced by him. My biggest take away is would he offer us something different than what we already have? Its a no from me. Go out and get 1-2 midfielders with that money who can really offer us passing range and keeping possession. I'd take Ruben Neves all day.
Ruben Neves, Ndidi. Tchouameni - there are a bunch.
Would say why aren't we really pushing for them but then remember who owns us
We have seen enough to know he won’t be world class. That’s for sure.
This is the problem with us, we want players that are known, ofcourse they are hard to get.
Did anyone know Rodri will get to this level? City knew he fits the bill and their scouts said, he is the one.
Liverpool with Fabinho, no one knew he has the quality, but their scouts did.
What our our scouts doing? scouting Declan Rice... I mean everyone who has an idea about the PL knows about Rice's quality.
Real Madrid scouted and got Cammavinga as he fits their bill
23 years old, excellent defensive positional sense, tall, strong, quick, very mobile, surprisingly well balanced, two-footed, competent if not particularly incisive passing, carries the ball forward extremely well (99th and 98th percentile for total carry distance and progressive carry distance respectively).
He has his downsides but idea that he's weak either positionally or in terms of mobility is particularly strange if you've watched him play. He's known for his positional sense and mobility.
I believe Neves is on our list of targets - but i'd imagine not for this transfer window. Tchouameni and Neves will likely leave their cub in summer window. And you add to that list Zakaria and Kamara.
I mean he is better than McT but is he £80m better? I don't know.
We need a midfielder who can pass, something Neves is very capable of doing so. But again its taken us years to realize this so maybe there is something about him the club don't like?
I have a very big problem on how our scouting system works and how they report back.
It's literally what he's best at? He swept up countless attacks against us.
I know that. I’m saying watching him overall not worth the money quoted. You think he’s gonna be a world class DM like Kimmich, Casemiro, Verrati, Kante etc?
Nowhere in my post did I say he isn’t good defensively, he was very good against us defensive wise. His overall game and 100 million don’t go together.
Personally I think he's more of a B2B midfielder rather than a purely sitting DM.
Yeah the scouting is probably the root of the problem here.
We really have to bring in players with good technical ability - in terms of keeping the ball and passing range - i think that's vital. Every City midfielder is technically excellent on the ball. Neves for his age, form this season and transfer fee would be a no brainer imo - i think he would fit in really well in our midfield.
This season he has added driving forward with the ball, taking shots on and even scoring more goals but I would say he’s more of a DM while Soucek is the B2B in the West Ham team. When paired with Noble though he gets forward more.
That's weird that you say he reminds you of Gareth Barry because for me Gareth Barry's best asset was his passing; which is arguably Rice's most average.
*In a very structured counter attack system. I feel like you are mistaking straight line speed and ball carrying with general mobility, he's a big dude which has advantages (especially in Moyes' system) but the disadvantage is he's not rapid off the mark and he's less agile. He's fast when he gets going but then so is someone like Lukaku and no one thinks of him as mobile.
I don't think he's a bad player by any means and the age is obviously a positive but he's not worth anything close to what WHUM want for him and I don't see how anyone can say with certainty he's great positionally when none of the big teams play like West Ham. DM's in a structured setup can look great, we only need to think back to how good Schneiderlin looked before we signed him.
I used the scouting reports you can generate on fbref to compare him in the PL 20-21 and 21-22. The figure listed is the percentile - ie, where he ranks against other midfielders in each category. For example, "65" would mean that he is better than 64% of midfielders in that category.
Anyone can do the analysis, but I just note that there is a striking development between the two seasons, and that stats points towards a major improvement in his performance this season compared to last. Above all, his passing stats are much stronger, and his carrying stats too.
Anyone can do the analysis, but I just note that there is a striking development between the two seasons, and that stats points towards a major improvement in his performance this season compared to last. Above all, his passing stats are much stronger, and his carrying stats too.
| Stat (percentile) | 20-21 | 21-22 |
| npxg+xa | 42 | 25 |
| shots | 46 | 27 |
| Passes attempted | 38 | 65 |
| pass completion% | 67 | 94 |
| Prog passing dist | 44 | 75 |
| Key passes | 27 | 36 |
| Passes into final 3rd | 45 | 88 |
| Passes into PA | 45 | 80 |
| progressive passes | 29 | 47 |
| Passes under pressure | 39 | 55 |
| Shot-creating actions | 37 | 32 |
| Goal-creating actions | 26 | 65 |
| Tackles | 66 | 42 |
| Tackles won | 69 | 67 |
| Dribbled past | 86 | 90 |
| Pressures | 23 | 11 |
| Pressures success % | 54 | 79 |
| Blocks | 62 | 63 |
| Interceptions | 88 | 99 |
| Touches | 36 | 61 |
| Touches in att 3rd | 25 | 41 |
| Dribbles completed | 58 | 61 |
| Dribbles success % | 99 | 42 |
| Players dribbled past | 53 | 73 |
| Carries | 42 | 73 |
| Prog carrying distance | 73 | 98 |
| Progressive carries | 66 | 93 |
| Carries into final third | 69 | 94 |
| Carries into PA | 65 | 94 |
| Miscontrols | 51 | 80 |
| Dispossessed | 73 | 65 |
| Aerials won % | 86 | 88 |
| Aerials won | 76 | 66 |
Exactly, but the way they go about it shows levels. Fernandhino was having a brilliant season, the club realised he is getting on and scouted someone that can do that job, got him in, rotated him for a season to get him up to speed, now he is a top DM.
They tried that with Torres but Barca offered alot of money so they sold him.
They have done that with Alvarez now, instead of getting with the hype of Vlahovic, Haaland after failing to land Kane, they decided to scout and get a ST who can fit their profile.
Liverpool do it too, get Fabinho then 2 years ago realised they need a winger, so they got Jota not a big name like floating about, they trusted their scouting system and got players that will improve them.
We wait for the most obvious transfer and wait for their stock to hit all time high then get them.
Thats what we are doing with Neves too.
Also, I remember Tielemans after his loan spell at Leicester was available for 40m but we didnt scout him enough to realise he could be good too.
I think @sullydnl posted them previously but with the more attactive datavizzy that are easier to get an impression from?
Yep, earlier in the season:
Last season:
This season:
Last season:
This season:
Will be interesting to see if that improvement holds across the season.
Yeah, for 100m, I'm just not seeing what other people see in him.
We could do better.
We could do better.
I'd rather rangnick sings us 3 cm's for 100m.
Cheers.
Lets buy another overpriced british player, and justify it with a bunch of stats. Like we have not done that before 
Declan is McTominay playing football slower.
Jesus Christ
I really like Rice and think he would be a good signing. 100M is nuts though.
50 or 60M would be good value IMO.
50 or 60M would be good value IMO.
I’m torn between jumping on board with hype over Rice and sticking with my belief that 100m should instead be spent on several players to address several deficiencies.
At the bottom of it all is a business decision, much like the decision to spend 80m on Maguire. So much hype had surrounded Maguire that it became a business imperative that United make that very public splash for a CB I think every one of us knows in our heart of hearts was never an 80m CB. Maguire is a good CB, no doubt, but it’s fair to say he’s not an 80m — which I think is still the top spend of all time for a CB, possibly in inflation-adjusted numbers as well.
Is Rice really the most valuable central midfielder of all time? Doubtful at best. But the public statement of intent spending 100m on him would be very clear.
The Glazers have been talked into massive buys before, Maguire, Wan-Bissaka and Pogba being the most recent. But they also agreed to Sanchez. Yet it’s arguably the case that all four were disappointments, though only Sanchez was a complete flop.
At the bottom of it all is a business decision, much like the decision to spend 80m on Maguire. So much hype had surrounded Maguire that it became a business imperative that United make that very public splash for a CB I think every one of us knows in our heart of hearts was never an 80m CB. Maguire is a good CB, no doubt, but it’s fair to say he’s not an 80m — which I think is still the top spend of all time for a CB, possibly in inflation-adjusted numbers as well.
Is Rice really the most valuable central midfielder of all time? Doubtful at best. But the public statement of intent spending 100m on him would be very clear.
The Glazers have been talked into massive buys before, Maguire, Wan-Bissaka and Pogba being the most recent. But they also agreed to Sanchez. Yet it’s arguably the case that all four were disappointments, though only Sanchez was a complete flop.
What is the absolute max that you think should be paid for Rice?
Rice is 100% a united player, he is the right age, has a real presence and is improving each year . He is a leader too something we have badly lacked. Listen to how Roy Keane bigs him up, he is exactly what we need.
Its a shame British players prices are hiked up, but if we want him we are gonna have to pay up. Clearing wage bill of Lingard, Martial, Pogba, Hendo, Cavani and Mata will be a good start.
If we dont buy him rent boys will and we will regret it.
I think he wants the move too, following his post match comments.
Hopefully see him in red shirt in the summer.
Its a shame British players prices are hiked up, but if we want him we are gonna have to pay up. Clearing wage bill of Lingard, Martial, Pogba, Hendo, Cavani and Mata will be a good start.
If we dont buy him rent boys will and we will regret it.
I think he wants the move too, following his post match comments.
Hopefully see him in red shirt in the summer.
I disagree---- he is every bit a united player and is improving every season in a overperforming west ham team. He stands out for his physicality, mobility, ball retention and leadership something our midfield has not seen since the days of Keano. He is a big part of the hammers recent upsurge. Keano himself says Rice is the man we want.
Your major point is the price, Chris feckin wood went for 25million..inflated prices dominate the market now but if you want a player thats going to help the team and play a huge part for the next 9-10 years we are just gonna have to pay up the 100 million, cos if we dont Chelsea will.
He's a solid player, but for £100m you'd want more than a few interceptions and straight line running. Attacking players who create goals always go for the big money, people like Rice don't.
Who is even the most expensive DM in world football these days? Frankie De Jong at 75m euros. Pogba is/was twice the player of Rice and he went for £89m.
Lets face it, If West Ham stick to their guns he's going nowhere until he's 25/26 at least. People can get giddy in here all they like, but there's similar players elsewhere who are much better value.
Look at Bruno Guimaraes from Lyon. Similar player, going for possibly 30/40m? now that's somebody we should be targetting.
That's just the passing part of the report though.
Firstly, Newcastle are owned by a state, £25m for them is equivalent to £1m to another club. They have just been taken over and will spend money willy nilly as we saw with City when they got taken over.
Secondly, looking at Rice and McTominay, the stats are similar considering we the way people talk about McTominay, he is a relegation level midfielder.
https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...1-2022&player_id2=d93c2511&p2yrfrom=2021-2022
Let me just put some stats
| MCt | Rice | |
| Pass attempts per 90 | 47 | 55 |
| Pass accuracy % | 89 | 85 |
| Progressive passes per 90 | 4.2 | 3.7 |
| Passes under pressure | 8.14 | 8.7 |
| Tackles | 2.4 | 2.2 |
| Pressures | 15.9 | 13.7 |
| Interceptions | 1.48 | 3.05 |
Rice carries the ball better than McTominay but those stats are not someone £100m better than what we have even with 100% inflation.
Leadership, so you can see he is a leader but will ignore what Ole, Ralf have said about McTominay being a leader?
I've learnt that with new players, people see what they want to see. Everything is golden and they ignore the realities, until they get into our side.
Yep, we over rate players at a different club. The whole fan base has goes mental when they see McTominay in the team ahead of golden boy Donny, yet the stats are similar if not better than Rice's who some fans on here think is worth £100m?
I am sure people are losing the plot, £100m for a McTominay? He is a leader because he wears the armband at West Ham? But wont accept our managers saying McT is a leader?
I guarantee if we spent £100m on Rice, 2 years later everyone will be like "and we spent £100m on a player that can only pass sideways"
Good post. Do you have a similar stat comparing with Fred and Matic ?
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