The general attitude of our players

[Dion]

snip

I'm not going to quote this because it will get removed and I don't want the mods to have more work to do, but be better.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I'm not going to quote this because it will get removed and I don't want the mods to have more work to do, but be better.

What was wrong with what I said? Ronaldo was in court too, but was found not guilty.

 

[stubie]

I miss the days when we had players like Irwin and Hughes who would just come intro training and then home, game on a Saturday then home, never in the front pages, perfect example of how to handle money and fame.

 

[Dion]

What was wrong with what I said? Ronaldo was in court too, but was found not guilty.

If you think talking about the honesty levels of "these women" is remotely relevant or appropriate then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

If you think talking about the honesty levels of "these women" is remotely relevant or appropriate then I don't know what to tell you.

Lots of people lie about these things. It is relevant. The court need to look into that.

 

[Dion]

Lots of people lie about these things. It is relevant. The court need to look into that.

Like I said, do better. Be a better person, don't be this one.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Like I said, do better. Be a better person, don't be this one.

Being a better person is not to go hard on someone for being accused right?

He is not found guilty yet and might be innocent. Although it is high chance he has not treated her well even if there is no evidence for abuse.

 

[Dion]

I'm not going to speak in detail about this case because mods have a hard enough job as it is, but if you still think "these people aren't honest" after having a good chance to think about it is a remotely appropriate thing to say, then I'm quite done with you.

This is also worth considering

I also think it's worth pointing out that as an individual who doesn't have the power to incarcerate anyone, fine them, take away their liberties etc. you should not employ the same standard of proof required for something to be "proven guilty" that a court who can do all those things does. The same applies to businesses and employers. Your standard of proof should be proportionate to the consequences of you reaching that judgement.

You do have to respect the process of the courts and not jeopardise everyone's right to legal justice, but I think a lot of people misunderstand the "innocent until proven guilty" thing as you cannot form an opinion on someone or treat them a certain way until they have been prosecuted by a court. That is of course a total cop-out.

 

[Hugh Jass]

I think it is a problem for football in general. You have these guys earning millions. Even players playing for the lesser teams in the PL are still on two or three million a year. The affluence just goes to their heads.

I recall reading about Lingard that the second he got the big contract he dumped his girlfriend. That is what you are dealing with. How many of these footballer dump their wives for "upgrades." It is horrible really.

 

[Son]

Rashford has done more good than pretty much any footballer in our history so it’s not a generational thing at all.

Mason seems to have a psycopathic trait to his personality. It can make you a high achiever but at the same time zero morals and understanding about right and wrong if this is all correct which let’s face it is pretty obvious by now.

You can’t coach personality traits and some people sadly are just born like that not even their upbringing. You can’t do much apart from give them therapy.

We saw with England too the warning signs. That wasn’t normal behaviour no matter who wants to say it was just lads being lads. The guy has a problem in his head and good luck to him sorting it but it won’t be at our club I assume.

 

[Hugh Jass]

Rashford has done more good than pretty much any footballer in our history so it’s not a generational thing at all.

Mason seems to have a psycopathic trait to his personality. It can make you a high achiever but at the same time zero morals and understanding about right and wrong if this is all correct which let’s face it is pretty obvious by now.

You can’t coach personality traits and some people sadly are just born like that not even their upbringing. You can’t do much apart from give them therapy.

We saw with England too the warning signs. It’s not normal behaviour no matter who wants to say it’s just lads being lads. The guy has a problem in his head and good luck to him sorting it but it won’t be at our club I assume.

I was saying this at the time. It was worrying given he was such a high profile footballer.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

I also think it's worth pointing out that as an individual who doesn't have the power to incarcerate anyone, fine them, take away their liberties etc. you should not employ the same standard of proof required for something to be "proven guilty" that a court who can do all those things does. The same applies to businesses and employers. Your standard of proof should be proportionate to the consequences of you reaching that judgement.

You do have to respect the process of the courts and not jeopardise everyone's right to legal justice, but I think a lot of people misunderstand the "innocent until proven guilty" thing as you cannot form an opinion on someone or treat them a certain way until they have been prosecuted by a court. That is of course a total cop-out.

Preach.

The worrying thing for me about people’s views is how easily different they become based on the team the players is playing for. How many RedCafe posters are worrying about Mendy at Citehs innocence until guilt is proven.

 

[BluesJr]

Glad to see it being discussed. Needs to be done.

 

[Stgun]

Wonder whether Mourinho was the toxic one or he just couldn't withstand a toxic environment at our club.

 

[Son]

I was saying this at the time. It was worrying given he was such a high profile footballer.

Bit like Lance Armstrong and Tiger Woods in some ways. They are pretty pathetic individuals who need help.

Lots of insecurities and you can tell with Mason caught telling his girlfriend to call him whatever crass names in another video he’s insecure and it’s worrying behaviour.

That kind of personality leads to some of the worst things human beings are capable of historically so the facts are this lad probably won’t ever live a happy fulfilled life. Makes it very hard to I imagine.

 

[Raoul]

Lots of people lie about these things. It is relevant. The court need to look into that.

Source ?

 

[Hugh Jass]

Bit like Lance Armstrong and Tiger Woods in some ways. They are pretty pathetic individuals who need help.

Lots of insecurities and you can tell with Mason caught telling his girlfriend to call him whatever crass names in another video he’s insecure and it’s worrying behaviour.

That kind of personality leads to some of the worst things human beings are capable of historically so the facts are this lad probably won’t ever live a happy fulfilled life. Makes it very hard to I imagine.

Giggs as well. It takes a certain level of psychological pathology to be able to do what he did, knowing it will probably come out at some point, given his level of exposure.

Armstrong was fascinating. Even the dogs on the street knew he was doping and he would just deny it time and time again. "Where is the proof?" he would say. To be able to go ahead and do it and sleep well, takes a certain level of psychopathy. If it were me i just would not do it. But even if i did do it i would not be able to sleep at night.

 

[Raoul]

Being a better person is not to go hard on someone for being accused right?

He is not found guilty yet and might be innocent. Although it is high chance he has not treated her well even if there is no evidence for abuse.

Do you think defending someone who was just arrested for rape is a worthy hill for you to die on ?

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Do you think defending someone who was just arrested for rape is a worthy hill for you to die on ?

He is not guility yet. You guys attacking him before it is certain.

I imagine it can't be easy for Greenwood to deal with this.

 

[Raoul]

He is not guility yet. You guys attacking him before it is certain.

I imagine it can't be easy for Greenwood to deal with this.

I'm sure it isn't, but it seems like you're privileging his interests over those of the person he allegedly raped. Can you not see how this would come across as being a rape apologist to objective observers ?

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

He is not guility yet. You guys attacking him before it is certain.

I imagine it can't be easy for Greenwood to deal with this.

Redcafe never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I'm sure it isn't, but it seems like you're privileging his interests over those of the person he allegedly raped. Can you not see how this would come across as being a rape apologist to objective observers ?

No since I am not defending him if guility. Then I do not want him to play for us again.

 

[Raoul]

No since I am not defending him if guility. Then I do not want him to play for us again.

Yes, but people are arrested for doing horrific things all the time, which immediately sparks public outrage and sympathy for the victims. So why would this be any different ?

 

[JB7]

Wasn't the Greenwood thread locked because it was giving ridiculous viewpoints a platform? Is everyone just moving camp into another thread now?

 

[Raoul]

Wasn't the Greenwood thread locked because it was giving ridiculous viewpoints a platform? Is everyone just moving camp into another thread now?

Yes, this one will be locked shortly as well.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Yes, but people are arrested for doing horrific things all the time, which immediately sparks public outrage and sympathy for the victims. So why would this be any different ?

Yeah what is wrong with that? Just natural I say. Greenwood is our player and this is pretty sad.

 

[CloneMC16]

Wasn't the Greenwood thread locked because it was giving ridiculous viewpoints a platform? Is everyone just moving camp into another thread now?

Seems that way. The issue is, the discussion will probably move to other threads on the forum. It's going to be hard to stop people from posting about this. It's a serious issue that deserves to be discussed, but I understand that it's hard to moderate it.

 

[Hugh Jass]

Yes, this one will be locked shortly as well.

It will probably indirectly keep coming up in various threads tbh. Given the seriousness of it.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Yes, this one will be locked shortly as well.

Genuine question, what does locking do?

The original thread being locked has just decamped base views elsewhere instead of solving any issue. I only ask as closing the threads doing actually solve the issue from my perspective, if members of the forum are willing to justify the accused behaviour surely it’s better to see who those members are. Locking threads & silencing the subject kind of feels like turning the back to the issue. Quite a few threads on racism have been dealt with similarly.

 

[dpansheth]

He is not guility yet. You guys attacking him before it is certain.

I imagine it can't be easy for Greenwood to deal with this.

I know you are on a football forum etc, but have a bit of humanity and consider what the victim or people in similar circumstances Might feel about this.

 

[Raoul]

Genuine question, what does locking do?

The original thread being locked has just decamped base views elsewhere instead of solving any issue. I only ask as closing the threads doing actually solve the issue from my perspective, if members of the forum are willing to justify the accused behaviour surely it’s better to see who those members are. Locking threads & silencing the subject kind of feels like turning the back to the issue. Quite a few threads on racism have been dealt with similarly.

Well for one, it saves a lot of posters from getting banned for saying stupid things. It also lowers the temperature about, at least until something more conclusive is released about the case.

 

[DRJosh]

He is not guility yet. You guys attacking him before it is certain.

I imagine it can't be easy for Greenwood to deal with this.

How do you think other rape victims/survivors, who have had to endure to immense lifetime worth of emotional pain and stigmatisation, would react to your comment about "these women"? Honest question.

 

[BluesJr]

Well for one, it saves a lot of posters from getting banned for saying stupid things. It also lowers the temperature about, at least until something more conclusive is released about the case.

Then they deserve to be banned? It has to be allowed to be discussed.

 

[Wibble]

Then they deserve to be banned? It has to be allowed to be discussed.

It doesn't if it can't be discussed rationally.

Our preference is that is what happens in a single thread, if noting else to avoid the issue infesting other forums/threads.

However, as Raoul said sometimes we need to lock threads for the reasons he mentioned. Plus sometimes we close threads to prevent defamation or when comments could prevent someone getting a fir trial.