People can always mourn about this or that player is not Barca or Man Utd quality players. Barca/Xavi has an aging team mixed with young players from academy. They need reinforcement to help the team to get a top 4 spot with salary cap and also financial restriction. Traore is brought in for exactly that reason. He is on loan and reduced salary. I won't read too much on Traore's stats in wolves as play style is completely different than Barcelona. Traore performed well in his first game for Barcelona and I look forward to see him get even better under Xavi. No one say he will be a superstar. He is a just a Dembele replacement with lower salary and transfer fee. What i have been saying is he is not as useless as people claimed he is in redcafe.
How do Barcelona rebuild?
- Thread starter Bojan11
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
This isnt contradicting with anything I say in my initial post on him...
He would have to prove over a longer period of time that he can keep converting his speed into goals/assists and that his assist yesterday wasn't a one-off.. His numbers havent been great to say the least at Wolves, so Im not convinced of him yet. Though I have to admit he already proved more value for Barca in his first game than I would have given him overall.. Lets see how this goes..
They also have a form of club governance that absolutely will not tolerate miring in mediocrity. If Laporta doesn't deliver in a window of lets say two seasons, someone else will take his place. Barcelona fans cannot live with the thought of Madid pulling away from them in the sporting or financial stakes. The board and management of Barsa will steal, scrape, borrow and shithouse themselves into any deals or situations to stay at the top. You cannot really say the same about the Glazers and their picked men
It doesn't matter how many times a lie is repeated
Its still a lie
And what's the lie?
Any claim Pogba has been 'horrible' for United is objectively false and a total lie. Its not even debatable. Only Pogba haters and Souness buy into that nonsense
How do Barca rebuild?
By buying a LB, a RB and a CB in the summer.
Honestly, if they can gather the funds to sign those 3 and ship off some remaining deadwood they have a great XI and a decent bench.
Mazraoui, Pau Torres and Gaya?
By buying a LB, a RB and a CB in the summer.
Honestly, if they can gather the funds to sign those 3 and ship off some remaining deadwood they have a great XI and a decent bench.
Mazraoui, Pau Torres and Gaya?
I mostly just think the odds they don't get top 4 aren't very high. La Liga doesn't usually have four teams that are good enough to get top 4 with lots of points. And one of them is Atletico, who are doing terribly this year. Real Madrid and Sevilla have locked down two spots, but I doubt Betis can hold on. No other 'smaller' team is going to claw their way to a top 4 spot IMO.
Four signings seems like a lot to throw at this problem.
The good performance of a player depends on the factors that each person considers most important, therefore it is subjective.
And you say it's not even debatable. You believe that your opinion is the valid one because yes and you do not accept any kind of debate, and those who have another opinion are haters.
Isn't it better to give arguments because for you Pogba hasn't been horrible and to be able to debate? That this is what a forum is for, giving opinions with arguments.
I hope they don't sign Pau Torres and he also costs €50M.
Barcelona should enter the top 4 but have little margin for error, a little bad run and you are left out.
Betis have a tight schedule with the cup and the Europa League, they should lose some points.
Atletico Madrid playing like the last few games they have it complicated.
R.Sociedad and Villarreal have options but almost without being able to make mistakes.
I fully agree with the above. Having said that I feel a statement that Pogba has been horrible throughout his time at United is ridiculous and only made by extremely biased people. You can perfectly argue that he has been underwhelming or not delivered what one may expect for the sum of money United paid for him, but horrible overall.. Come on mate...
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It really isn't. There is nothing subective about performance.
Performance is not aesthetics.
The problem here is the likes of YOU are the one relying on opinion. I'm not. You are entitled to your own opinions. Never your own facts.
If you are saying in YOUR opinion he has been horrible. That's fine. I would then have reason to engage in a debate to find out why. I just wont bother because I know from experience its usually a pointless excercise trying to change opinion that way. Thus We can happily and comfortably agree to disagree.
As long as you are insisting though the he has indeed been "horrible". Which is what I inferred from your post I first replied to. I'm not standing for that. If my inferrence was wrong. I hold up my hands and admit I misjudged you.
This is the lame excuse people love to hide behind when what they are saying is objectively challengable. Espscially when ample evidence and ample discussions on the matter at hand have been had on this forum nigh hundreds of times.
Barcelona need to raid the free market.
They should be looking for the likes of Cristiansen, Mazaroui and Ginter for their defence. Kessie too
They should be looking for the likes of Cristiansen, Mazaroui and Ginter for their defence. Kessie too
I have more confidence in their rebuild as well. They have a board actually focused on the football, who have experience on this level. Their board and their fans don’t tolerate mediocrity. They have a style of football ingrained throughout their club, and they continue to produce young players along those lines, as we’re seeing now with what appear to be a decent crop of youngsters coming up.
The only one of those things we have is some decent young players coming up.
There are some things that can be measured and objectively rated, like speed.
Other aspects are far more depending on the context, like passing stats. A player can be tasked to try a lot of high risk passes, which results in a low success rate, but might - context considered - still be a lot better than another player who has a higher success rate, but makes critical mistakes in areas where he shouldn't.
And such things are subjective - is it right to take those higher risks? Should the player do something else?
And you can ask such questions about most objectively measured stats.
Wrong. You just have to plug the three numbers into the equation and you get Objective Performance.
Everyone who looks for the adjective they think is appropriate.
I don't value the performance of a player for what he has cost, is Pogba's performance different for having cost €110M or would he have come for free? No, the performance is the same, what he has cost does not change anything.
And with the quality of a player exactly the same thing happens. It doesn't matter if you're Messi and miss 10 easy passes or Luuk De Jong and miss those same 10 passes. The only difference is that if you are Messi, it is more strange and surprises people, but the player's evaluation must be the same.
If you measure the performance of a player only by statistics then you can have objective data.
For me this is a huge mistake because there are a lot of contexts.
Aerial duels won: it is not the same if you are paired with Gavi ( 1.70) than with someone your height or taller.
Tackles: Same as before, depends on who you're up against.
Successful passes: It depends if you are alone or under pressure, if it is a 5-meter backward pass or a 50-meter long ball.
And so with many other things.
To judge a player you have to see what he does and see if he made a correct decision.
That is why I value Pogba's performance: horrible, disastrous, very bad, below what a club of the level of Manchester United is or that each person puts the adjective they want.
Pogba is not tactically intelligent, he does not occupy the spaces he should.
He goes down to defend after losing the ball very slowly.
He presses in a slow and disorderly way, in matches against modest rivals he is seen to be apathetic or lacking in desire.
With the ball, he slows down the game, gives more touches than necessary and gives rivals time to position themselves.
Shots on goal from far away or from bad positions or better placed teammates. In short, making bad decisions that do not appear in the statistics.
And now it would be nice to know your opinion about why he doesn't seem horrible to you, that you haven't given it yet.
The way you describe you look at Pogba from a purely performance perspective, excluding expectations and bias (not possible for any human, but ok), makes it even weirder that you would label his stint at United overall as 'horrible'.
Its the only data that actually counts whilst measuring performance. Statistics don't lie. People who interprete them, do.
That is where many make the biggest mistake of all. It's the context that turns statistics into meaningful objective information. It can NEVER render the statistical data meaningless
A very poor example. You are making the entirely unwarranted assumption a much shorter player can't beat a much shorter one aerially. Players like Pele and Fabio Cannavaro two name two put this notion to bed.
The accurate way of looking at such data is he consistently do you win aerial duels, no matter the opponent.
Same as above. If prime Roy Keane or Kante came up against Pogba or Carrick in a tackle contest, for example. I'm certain the smaller guys would win by a land slide.
Another example of how meaningless context less data is. Unless we break down successful passes into length, direction and chance creation for example. We can NEVER get a clear picture of passing ability. Context enables data to become information.
Its because of context and data that I can objectively state you are just wrong. No ifs, buts or maybe's. Its not at all debatable.
This is not true at all.
Pogba is always damned with what ever he does by those who just don't like him.
If he stays deep and close to his midfield partner. They blame him for staying too deep and not affecting the game further forward enough. Not taking risks. Not wanting responsibility.
When he breaks forward to try and force things further upfield, attempts to score with his solid long range shooting, attempts to pass riskily, take people on in midfield in an attempt to run things/ake things happen. He is then accused of tactical naivety. Shirking of defensive duty and ego tripping. Wanting to glorify himself by doing too much ad self indulgence. Of giving the ball away too easily with needless risk. By the same people who eagerly tolerate this same risk taking that cedes possession repeatedly from Bruno Fernandes.
If he ever He keeps things simple in the middle of the pack. He is immediately accused of not caring and not wanting to impose himself.
He runs back to work and defend. He is accused of being too dumb to understand he is of no use defensively the first sign of trouble like a penalty. He should leave it to defenders and the Fred's. When he does just that and leaves those types to chase back and defend. How dare he is the next rant. He clearly doesn't care and lacks desire.
The excuses and goal post shifting never ceases. Its always double standards when it comes to him. That is how idiotic myths like "he plays differently for France" and that "he was carried defensively at Juventus" got birthed and have grown into unkillable beasts. Like this laughable one that he has been horrible at United.
A guy who has been in the EPL team of the year. Consistently in the top 2 of chance creation and goals from midfield.
Plus being heavily involved in anything thar has lead to a trophy at United in his stay here. We arr supposed to believe he has been as influence less as a demebele at barcelona....
This is a lie. More often than not he gets abused for giving away fouls for trying to recover balls he has lost needlessly.
You mean by the self same people who say "its just (insert small team name here). When they can see Pogba is having a solid game...
This is arguably the worst claim of the lot. If it were true he wouldn't consistently be in the top 2 of chances creators at United. Would not consistently have the most progressive passes and would have the worst passing and pass completion statistics of United's midfielders.
Honestly when it comes to Pogba. You haters can't help yourselves....in your eyes he will forever be a glorified Delle Alli of the last 3 seasons.
Fact is it doesn't matter. We don't have too see eye to eye. This is a Barca rebuild thread. Unless he joins Barca. We need not discuss him in here any longer.
There is a reason why the whole football industry is shifting to data analysis for player recruitment, instead of relying on scout's opinion. I can't even remember how many scouts Arsenal let go.
Barca just need some time to clear the senior players with expensive and long contract. Pandemic is ending soon and their income will be back to their original level. There are a lot of players want to play for Barcelona.
Barca just need some time to clear the senior players with expensive and long contract. Pandemic is ending soon and their income will be back to their original level. There are a lot of players want to play for Barcelona.
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Judgments must be made based on performance. Not to other factors.
1- See and examine the tactical, technical, physical and mental qualities of a player and his future potential.
2- Training to develop the aforementioned qualities.
3- Effort: Fighting for the things we want, is the vigor or energy we use to achieve a goal or perform some action, it is essential to achieve the most difficult goals.
4- Will: When everything is difficult, give the maximum and a little more, believe and have faith.
These are the foundations of a player's development and performance and Pogba doesn't even come close to meeting them on several of them.
Simply out of curiosity, which teams are based on data and which data are more specifically?
Statistics if you do not interpret them in their proper context and analysis are useless. And there are also many other factors that are not quantifiable, such as positioning and decision-making.
It is the same thing that I have been saying but there are also many factors that are not quantifiable and that make opinions subjective and not objective.
But since the opponent is not going to matter, if you systematically play against people who are much shorter than you and who are not good in the air, you will have a better stat.
Later, when you face taller players and then you don't win as many aerial duels, then the surprise comes, all because you don't analyze the context and the situation well. Simply because you have seen a percentage of a stat.
And the context is subjective, and that means that an objective data is translated into a subjective evaluation.
For example, a player has 90% passing accuracy. I can say that most of these passes are easy and another person think that they are more complicated and that is where the subjectivity of objective data comes from. And that's why a player with 90% passing accuracy can be worse than one with 80%.
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That is the problem, it depends on the player in front of you, a small player like Kante is not the same as a small player like Xavi or Iniesta. Hence the context.
In addition to analyzing why you have won or lost the duel, in which direction the ball was coming if I had an advantage or he had it at the precise moment of the tackle.
You say that " he is top 2 in goal chances created and goals from midfield. If it were true he wouldn't consistently be in the top 2 of chances creators at United. Would not consistently have the most progressive passes and would have the worst passing and pass completion statistics of United's midfielders. “
And you think that the context is not important here?
How many goals have been free kicks or penalties? To create those goalscoring chances has he missed a lot of passes or has he been very effective?
The passes that he has hit and missed were what he should have done at the time or did he take unwarranted risks?
Well, that is context and it is subjective and statistics without context can give you an erroneous vision.
What other people think and say about him is their own problem, not mine. My opinion is what I have said before and I take responsibility for that opinion, not for what other people say.
I am not a hater of anyone or any player, I simply have the most honest opinion possible, even though I may be wrong.
I am not a data scientist or data analyst so I don't have the answer. The big data is not only used for player recruitment, but also injury prevention as well. This is a big topic and you are entitled to your own opinion. I can only say Arsenal has shifted to data analysis for player recruitment and let go many scouts.
https://soccerment.com/the-importance-of-football-analytics/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...data-analysis-edge-rivals-technology-war.html
Gavi's preferred position is attacking in front 3 (Enrique interview after Euros). He's in CM only because Pedri had a long term injury.
Umtiti just signed a contract extension and who is going to pay any kind of transfer money for a perma-crock whose knees have been shot?
Depay has no future but he will have 2 more years on his contract. Who will pay him Barca wages ( £200K/week) and also a transfer fee? You are stuck with him.
I did not know Nico was a DM. Its a waste considering he is good as a box to box CM.
That is not true at all. You can use statistics to find out about any player's decision making and positioning.
No. It most certainly isn't. You are still pushing the the claim statistics "tell us little", which is just objectively wrong, period. It's the excuse people always hide behind when what they claim to see doesn't line up with the statistics involved.
I'm afraid That's a nonsense argument based on the assumption that just because you are tall you will always have the aerial advantage over shorter players. In reality it doesn't work that way. That totally ignores factors like jumping power and timing. Let alone if the opponent your are facing will give you the time nor space to even get an aerial advantage, say like Pep's barca at its peak.
This is where you keep getting it wrong. Context isn't subjective. Context is what turns raw data to actual information. If for example someone talks of pass completion rate, .Context is things like length of pass, direction, percentage of passes by length, and direction. Those are not subjective measurements and all of them are contextual.
You are still just getting it wrong. Passing accuracy simply tells you about passing accuracy. Nothing else. Its classic raw dataI.
f you want to know how good the passing is you'd have to break into context such as passing distance, direction, chances created, long balls, through balls, expected assist, dispossessed and misplaced passes percentages, to name just a few to get meaningful information about how good a given player's passing is. None of those things are subjective values.
This is why I keep telling you. Statistics don't lie. Its always the interpreters (people) that do.
You just keep proving my point for me. The problem here is you keep infusing unwarranted assumptions into the data. That is why what ever result you end up with is subjective. I don't. I don't need to know how tall you are or where the ball came from or at what speed to know you can tackle or not. Because you will always face the same different kinds of opponents. Over and over again. Hence what will determine your proficiency at that particular skills are things like your success rate per game time and per attempt.
Rather you keep confusing yourself repeatedly about where you stand.
I'm the champion of context, that is why I trust statistics. You are a champion of subjectivity that is why you imagine context makes analysis of statistical data subjective.
The issue here isn't I don't care about context. It rather than you don't care for it enough that you imagine it synonymous with subjectivity
Do you SERIOUSLY think that data is missing from what has made me make my statement? Or you imagine everyone simply pick out meaningless statistics like passing accuracy to make statements?
The only things that give erroneous vision are biological nearsightedness with no corrective eye wear, poor understanding of context, shallow understanding of the activity being analysed and personal biases. Never statistical data. Never context
Is this one of those things were a person takes three math classes and thinks numbers are magic or what?
you can have different opinion but insult is really not necessary.
Yes, I know that big data is being implemented for several aspects: recruitment, injury prevention, cognitive ability (little is said about the importance of this).
Xavi uses Kognia.
It is a software developed through the years of work and experience of Joan Vilà, one of Xavi's main mentors in his growth as a footballer. Thus was born Kognia, a company that combines the profiles of leading specialists in the football industry with the advances offered by science and technology, to end up developing a unique system that allows a qualitative leap to the world of football.
The software has recently begun to be marketed and Villarreal has been one of the first to incorporate it, as Barça will now do. Several large clubs in Europe have recently taken an interest in the project and are studying to incorporate it also to improve their work skills and the performance of their teams.
I'm not going to repeat the same thing again. Now tell me the big data why you think Pogba is a big player.That is not true at all. You can use statistics to find out about any player's decision making and positioning.
No. It most certainly isn't. You are still pushing the the claim statistics "tell us little", which is just objectively wrong, period. It's the excuse people always hide behind when what they claim to see doesn't line up with the statistics involved.
I'm afraid That's a nonsense argument based on the assumption that just because you are tall you will always have the aerial advantage over shorter players. In reality it doesn't work that way. That totally ignores factors like jumping power and timing. Let alone if the opponent your are facing will give you the time nor space to even get an aerial advantage, say like Pep's barca at its peak.
This is where you keep getting it wrong. Context isn't subjective. Context is what turns raw data to actual information. If for example someone talks of pass completion rate, .Context is things like length of pass, direction, percentage of passes by length, and direction. Those are not subjective measurements and all of them are contextual.
You are still just getting it wrong. Passing accuracy simply tells you about passing accuracy. Nothing else. Its classic raw dataI.
f you want to know how good the passing is you'd have to break into context such as passing distance, direction, chances created, long balls, through balls, expected assist, dispossessed and misplaced passes percentages, to name just a few to get meaningful information about how good a given player's passing is. None of those things are subjective values.
This is why I keep telling you. Statistics don't lie. Its always the interpreters (people) that do.
You just keep proving my point for me. The problem here is you keep infusing unwarranted assumptions into the data. That is why what ever result you end up with is subjective. I don't. I don't need to know how tall you are or where the ball came from or at what speed to know you can tackle or not. Because you will always face the same different kinds of opponents. Over and over again. Hence what will determine your proficiency at that particular skills are things like your success rate per game time and per attempt.
Rather you keep confusing yourself repeatedly about where you stand.
I'm the champion of context, that is why I trust statistics. You are a champion of subjectivity that is why you imagine context makes analysis of statistical data subjective.
The issue here isn't I don't care about context. It rather than you don't care for it enough that you imagine it synonymous with subjectivity
Do you SERIOUSLY think that data is missing from what has made me make my statement? Or you imagine everyone simply pick out meaningless statistics like passing accuracy to make statements?
The only things that give erroneous vision are biological nearsightedness with no corrective eye wear, poor understanding of context, shallow understanding of the activity being analysed and personal biases. Never statistical data. Never context
Give me numbers and statistics.
And if that were the way you say because Werner, Havertz or Jovic do not perform the same in Germany as in the premier. To give an example.
If big data doesn't miss anything like you say then players will perform the same in one league as another.
There is a context and it cannot be ignored by pure and hard statistics.
For example, you're telling me if a player wins 70% of aerial duels, it doesn't matter who the opponent is?
I believe that it will be necessary to analyze who the opponents are in each of those aerial duels won and also lost to have an exact vision of what happened.
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Gaya is going to stay at valencia. Christensen, Tchouameni, Sterling, and a CF would be great business for them and would see them possibly compete for CL right away if the CF is Haaland
Christensen-Araujo-Pique/Alba-Tchouameni/Adama-De Jong-Haaland-Pedri-Sterling something like this
Gavi has played all his life as midfielder.In fact, he can play in all three positions of midfield or false winger, as Iniesta already did, but where he is most decisive is as a left interior.
He can play as a left winger in specific cases also as Iniesta did but it is not his position.
In that position where I saw him play in the Juvenil A and where all the coaches of the Masia (García Pimienta, Carlos Martínez...) agree is his best position.
Depay ends contract in 2023 and has a low salary, €12M gross/year? He is not in those numbers.
Umtiti will be tried a loan, now with the salary reduction he made is more possible.
Nico, the previous year he played a lot of right interior and also as a right back, because Barcelona B had all 3 injured right backs.
Here all his coaches think that his will end up playing in the position of Busquets, which is the ideal one for him.
We will have to wait.
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I recently read an article in which Barcelona were negotiating the signing of Sterling by Barcelona (before the signing of F. Torres). Then Mateu Alemany met with Sterling, upon returning to Barcelona he told Xavi that Sterling in Barcelona would be like a Martian.
Sterling is totally ruled out.
Barcelona will try Haaland and the rest will be signings that end contract or in the last year.
Gaya looks like he's going to renew, so the options will be Tagliafico and Grimaldo.
Barcelona will not spend money on a midfielder, the only possibility D. Olmo, who can also play as a left winger
Terribly inaccurate post (with the exception of the Umtiti part)
It doesn't matter what Nico's best position is, because they still have Busquets and De Jong that can play as a lone 6.
Depay doesn't have a high salary at all. I'm seeing 100k/w reported? He'll attract plenty of interest, and he seems like the type of player that wants to play rather than sit on the bench (he wouldn't want to lose his Holland spot), so transfer negotations wouldn't break down on salary demands.
8 goals in 16 la liga games. 20 goals and 12 assists for lyon last season. Even at 200k someone would take him (but again, he's not on that, he signed for a modest salary because Barca had no money and wouldn't have been interested otherwise).
Yeah, no way you're going for Sterling now that you have Torres and muscle boy. 100% you will focus on getting Haaland and some defenders.
The rest of the attack and midfield is sorted.
The midfield is actually so very much not sorted and the greatest area of weakness in the squad(aside from scorers) right now. Either Xavi needs to change how they play and go more conservative, or they need a mobile defensive powerhouse in there. Until that's sorted the defence will keep being a disaster
Sterling was just an example btw, they need player like him.
Sterling was just an example btw, they need player like him.
The midfield is more than covered: Busquets, De Jong, Gavi, Pedri, Nico. Then there is Álvaro Sanz who seems to like Xavi.
Riki Puig and Pjanic when he returns will leave, Coutinho too.
In addition there are 2 promising players in the academy. Txus Alba (19) and Aleix Garrido (17), the latter debuted with Barcelona b a few weeks ago with a goal, 1-2 lost Barcelona.
What Barcelona needs most are defenders, and I hope that a player from the academy who has the conditions will be given the opportunity.
Baldé (18, LB) is one of them, he debuted with Koeman and now he is not in Xavi's plans.
The other is Diego Almeida ( 17, CB, RB). A few months ago he made his debut with the Ecuadorian national team.
The center back that Xavi likes the most is Kounde, but if Barcelona goes for Haaland they won't have the money to pay an €80M release clause.
I think the barcelona management knows that Umtiti is non transferable given his injury history, so they extent his contract with lower salary to make room for salary for other players. Umtiti will receive the same amount of money in the end from his original contract. A win win situation. If Umtiti fully recover and play like he used to be that it is a big plus of course.
Indeed, a transfer is practically impossible. A loan with the current salary, even paying Barcelona a part, is possible.
Lyon was interested in a loan last summer, this summer perhaps.
come join the dark side!
We desperately need a Busquets replacement. He can’t be playing the full 90 every match