A poor team, poorly run with no direction. Even pundits are struggling to stay fascinated by a club’s perpetual non-success

[Ludens the Red]

Not sure what your point is. They have some great young talent on the books Foden is exceptional, and remember Sancho left City for more opportunties. My point is we are still well behind on youth development. But we dont have the oil dollars to buy in whoever we want, so we should focus on youth system alongside a targeted and more effective recruitment strategy. So not buying the likes of Pogba or signing a Ronadlo or Sanchez, would save us money in long term. I would rather see youth coming through than disinterested prima donnas. What about you?

My point is we are not behind city in developing youth. If city have great young talents why don’t we see them play?

We’ve seen Greenwood and Elanga come through in the last few years .
And yes we all want to see young players coming through so long as they’re good enough.
I don’t know how it can be quantified that city are better at developing youth when they have a grand total of one player in the last decade whos gotten into the first team. In that same time we’ve had Rashford, Greenwood, Elanga, Lingard, Henderson and McTominay.
Im envious of city on a lot of things but definitely not youth development.

 

[soapythecat]

FFS, so we got beat by City! When City turn up like that, most teams wouldn’t live with them.
Until the derby, we had been playing well. If we had scored half the decent chances we had created we would have won most games comfortably and the city loss would have been a sideline derby defeat.
I don’t think this one defeat should shape the work RR has or is doing, but it does go a huge way to highlight how poor the squad is and the lack of depth.
RR doesn’t need relaxing or hanging out to dry over this - the whole recruitment team need sacking and replacing.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Meh, city have had this fancy academy going on ten years, keep winning at youth level but the only player to break through is Phil Foden. Barely any of their youngsters are currently playing in the Premier League either. Completely pointless exercise. I always hear about city’s kids but I’ve never seen them, not even away against Swindon in the cup…..
Say what you want about United we still have players coming through and contributing to the first team. For me that is how the success of an academy is defined. Not how pretty the training ground or facilities are or how the under 18’s do.
To be fair to Chelsea they’ve started finally having academy products in their team but they were semi forced into it by the transfer ban and Lampard basically forcing it down Romans throat.

You’re looking at it wrong though - youth players don’t suddenly spring out of the ground, you don’t see the fruits of your labour in some cases for over a decade with how young kids start football now. City’s academy went from producing very few players (off the top of my head Richards, Wright-Phillips, Ireland) to Foden, Sancho, Garcia…

 

[Foxbatt]

If this was a properly run club the first thing they would do is give the manager the power to call up any player and get them and their agents to shut up. Look at SAF.

 

[Shane88]

More Barney Ronay e-diarrhoea.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

United being shite will remain a good (enough) story for years yet.

So, I wouldn't worry too much about that.

Eventually, it will become a non-story - sure. But in football terms (or in terms of media coverage, if you will), that will take a long, long time.

It never happened with Liverpool. And our starting point (the start of the decline, I mean) was actually considerably better than theirs in many ways.

Granted, the media landscape is different now - but still. I doubt it has changed that much in terms of us being generally relevant (as a potential story - be it "United on the rise" or "United still shite").

We have a bigger potential as a "sleeping giant" than any football club on the planet (because of our already established world wide fan base). That won't change any time soon.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

We have a top four squad and massive money, just sign a good manager in summer and make some moves and get on with it and we will be okay

 

[George The Best]

We have a top four squad and massive money, just sign a good manager in summer and make some moves and get on with it and we will be okay

Agree, Manager makes a huge difference - look what Tuchel did at Chelsea without spending a penny.

 

[Blood Mage]

We will look like a transformed side when we finally ditch the McFred double pivot and sign some proper footballers for our engine room.

 

[Ludens the Red]

You’re looking at it wrong though - youth players don’t suddenly spring out of the ground, you don’t see the fruits of your labour in some cases for over a decade with how young kids start football now. City’s academy went from producing very few players (off the top of my head Richards, Wright-Phillips, Ireland) to Foden, Sancho, Garcia…

Nah I’m not at all really. This has been going on since 2011, city’s academy push. It’s eleven years and it’s produced one player for them. At what point do we see the ‘fruits of labour’. Sancho actually came from Watford also.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Nah I’m not at all really. This has been going on since 2011, city’s academy push. It’s eleven years and it’s produced one player for them. At what point do we see the ‘fruits of labour’. Sancho actually came from Watford also.

Ok so who have we created who would get into a top CL team? Isn’t it also more likely we’ve regressed and so our youth products don’t have to be as good to break through.

I personally think City don’t really care about their academy, it’s an income stream for them but very few will get into the first team.

 

[Fridge chutney]

How is Arsenal/Arteta suddenly being seen as a "success" story? They haven't even finished 4th yet. Even if they scrape 4th, the proof will be in the following seasons when United/Spurs improve and when they have to play european football week in, week out. Then we will see if they've made progress or revert to their past 3 season average of 7th.

 

[George The Best]

How is Arsenal/Arteta suddenly being seen as a "success" story? They haven't even finished 4th yet. Even if they scrape 4th, the proof will be in the following seasons when United/Spurs improve and when they have to play european football week in, week out. Then we will see if they've made progress or revert to their past 3 season average of 7th.

To be fair they’ve improved massively under Arteta - and could even afford to dump Aubameyang, their best striker. They will be right in the mix for top 4 next season - will we?

 

[Utd7]

The idea we are poorly run is false, we just don't prioritize sporting success over financial success like City and Chelsea do

This proves we are poorly run. Manchester United should be a football club first, business second. The board focusing on us being a strong brand is what's wrong with the club.

 

[lex talionis]

We will look like a transformed side when we finally ditch the McFred double pivot and sign some proper footballers for our engine room.

There is great truth in this, but we also need a manager whose title does not include "interim". Ralf has done a decent job but it's clear as can be that certain players are underperforming under his management. Rashford and Pogba are the prime examples. Maguire is underperforming for reasons that have nothing to do with Ralf.

Invest in proper midfielders that would allow the new manager to bench Fred and McTominay and we're a proper side. There's more to do, without question, but if we don't address the McFred quagmire you could bring in prime Ronaldo (either one) and prime Maldini and we'll still get mauled in midfield, both in the transition to attack and in the transition to defend. Clear as fecking day.

 

[Adnan]

Some very knowledgeable posters here swear by Murtough is the right man to turn the club around. Finger crossed.

But so far looks like nothing change from the old regime. At least no obvious improvement can be seen yet

I don't think anyone is swearing by Murtough. But from what I've researched over the years and heard via podcasts from people who work in the game, Murtough's influence was very much restricted to everything other than the first team. And him being made DoF whilst Solskjaer was still Manager, was only to assist Solskjaer. Because it was Solskjaer the manager who had and was setting the mid to long-term plan. Murtough's first test as DoF was when he was tasked with bringing in a interim. His second test will be the summer window and he will be judged. And even the Ronaldo signing was down to Ole according to both The Athletic and Times newspaper. Where it was said, that Solskjaer ignored his coaching staff to go ahead with signing Ronaldo, because he felt Ronaldo's goals would make up for his deficiencies off the ball.

The manager controlled recruitment at first team level. The manager (Mourinho/Ole) was allowed his own personal scout(s) to sign players. I can provide a link to a article from Daniel Taylor from 2018, where he stated that United's decision makers on the football side didn't believe either Maguire or Alderweireld were good enough to elevate the team to a higher level. But Woodward still went ahead and signed both Maguire and Fernandes at later dates to back Solskjaer when it was reported that both players were deemed not of the requisite level by the United head of scouting. And those three people were Marcel Bout, Jim Lawlor and Mick Court who is the Head of the data analytics team.

Taylor is also a very good journalist and not someone like Samuel Luckhurst who is a Mourinho shill.

 

[Fridge chutney]

To be fair they’ve improved massively under Arteta - and could even afford to dump Aubameyang, their best striker. They will be right in the mix for top 4 next season - will we?

He's been there for 3 seasons and finally they are showing some modest improvement. I don't buy that they have improved "massively". Proof will be next season.

 

[Fridge chutney]

I don't think anyone is swearing by Murtough. But from what I've researched over the years and heard via podcasts from people who work in the game, Murtough's influence was very much restricted to everything other than the first team. And him being made DoF whilst Solskjaer was still Manager, was only to assist Solskjaer. Because it was Solskjaer the manager who had and was setting the mid to long-term plan. Murtough's first test as DoF was when he was tasked with bringing in a interim. His second test will be the summer window and he will be judged. And even the Ronaldo signing was down to Ole according to both The Athletic and Times newspaper. Where it was said, that Solskjaer ignored his coaching staff to go ahead with signing Ronaldo, because he felt Ronaldo's goals would make up for his deficiencies off the ball.

The manager controlled recruitment at first team level. The manager (Mourinho/Ole) was allowed his own personal scout(s) to sign players. I can provide a link to a article from Daniel Taylor from 2018, where he stated that United's decision makers on the football side didn't believe either Maguire or Alderweireld were good enough to elevate the team to a higher level. But Woodward still went ahead and signed both Maguire and Fernandes at later dates to back Solskjaer when it was reported that both players were deemed not of the requisite level by the United head of scouting. And those three people were Marcel Bout, Jim Lawlor and Mick Court who is the Head of the data analytics team.

Taylor is also a very good journalist and not someone like Samuel Luckhurst who is a Mourinho shill.

Excellent post. I didn't know most of that. Thank you.

 

[Rozay]

Not all second place finishes are alike though Rose, it was patently obvious that multiple things aligned to give United the position last season. Second is not a catastrophe but it was an overachievement for team & management that was unsustainable. Set aside Lampard & Liverpool what about last seasons 2nd place finish left you feeling truly hopeful for this season? I didn’t see us collapsing as we have but it wasn’t a solid building block.

I actually disagree. Every second place is the same. It is what it is. Everyone chose to spend all their time giving us zero credit at all and constant criticism, but you are objectively better than 18 of the other 19 teams. It doesn’t add up. Otherwise all first places are not the same either. Unless you set a points record or goals record perhaps you should het nothing but criticism too. Some champions are better than others. But they are still the best available. Whatever you say about them, they were the best of the lot. And we were the second best of the lot. Only it didn’t sound like it. This is why we are always one result from a media declared ‘crisis’. They love this shit and feed off it, and so does everyone else it seems.

When Jose finished second, we again went into the post season under the same cloud of criticism and negativity. Liverpool finished fourth to unanimous praise. Spurs finished third under a season long narrative and insinuation that they were better than us, who spent the entire season ahead of them. The media het carried away. Just because we aren’t where we want to be doesn’t mean we are always some sort of embarrassment or terrible. If we finish second, over 38 games, it is always explained away as some sort of accident because all the other teams who have not been better than us are actually better than us. Chelsea somehow managed to win a CL, which we could just as well win ourselves this season frankly, but have been comfortably worse than us in the league for the last two seasons, but the narrative is always different. Which is why all it takes is a couple of wins for them to be overpraised whereas it takes a couple of defeats for our manager to need to be sacked.

I’m not happy with us not being first either. But second can never be fifth either, so they should stop talking about us like we are the fifth best team when we aren’t (or haven’t been). Chelsea have been successful over the years and there is no way Chelsea finish any league season second or third under a cloud of negativity. Nor any other team except us, frankly. It’s because the media have gotten so used to having cheap shots at us they don’t know how to be balanced and offer any credit.

 

[Foxbatt]

There is great truth in this, but we also need a manager whose title does not include "interim". Ralf has done a decent job but it's clear as can be that certain players are underperforming under his management. Rashford and Pogba are the prime examples. Maguire is underperforming for reasons that have nothing to do with Ralf.

Invest in proper midfielders that would allow the new manager to bench Fred and McTominay and we're a proper side. There's more to do, without question, but if we don't address the McFred quagmire you could bring in prime Ronaldo (either one) and prime Maldini and we'll still get mauled in midfield, both in the transition to attack and in the transition to defend. Clear as fecking day.

Add to that players not making an effort. They think they are bigger than the club. Dump them to the bench and if they create trouble out of the squad for a while. The first thing United should do is find out who is leaking stories and come down on them heavily. Very heavily. Then tell the players to shut the heck up. Tell the manager he has absolute authority to dump anyone he wants.

 

[lex talionis]

Add to that players not making an effort. They think they are bigger than the club. Dump them to the bench and if they create trouble out of the squad for a while. The first thing United should do is find out who is leaking stories and come down on them heavily. Very heavily. Then tell the players to shut the heck up. Tell the manager he has absolute authority to dump anyone he wants.

Yes, but at the same a club like United have always wanted players with a bit of audacity about them. We used to be stocked with such players -- Cantona, Keane, Van Nistelrooy, Rooney and Ronaldo -- but top PL clubs today feature players with little personality, though brilliant. Who of City, Liverpool and Chelsea have a player on their squads that have any kind of personality, on or off the pitch? There's a bit of a robotic quality to these undeniably great squads. Historically, United have been different in this regard, going in for players who in important ways are larger than life. Those days are now behind us, and we are behind the times.

 

[Martial]

... at later dates to back Solskjaer when it was reported that both players were deemed not of the requisite level by the United head of scouting. And those three people were Marcel Bout, Jim Lawlor and Mick Court who is the Head of the data analytics team.

Taylor is also a very good journalist and not someone like Samuel Luckhurst who is a Mourinho shill.

At the same time, the same scouts have also regularly got it wrong, otherwise we'd have more than one decent signing in ten years.

 

[Adnan]

At the same time, the same scouts have also regularly got it wrong, otherwise we'd have more than one decent signing in ten years.

That's incorrect. We only had one full-time scout when Fergie retired according to reports. Up until the creation of the transfer committee in 2018, we've left the recruitment to the respective managers post Fergie, who have had their own personal scouts to call upon. Simon Wells was Ole's personal scout.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

The idea we are poorly run is false, we just don't prioritize sporting success over financial success like City and Chelsea do

Like what Chelsea did until now…Not sure if the new Chelsea owners will prioritise success as much as Abramovich.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Ok so who have we created who would get into a top CL team? Isn’t it also more likely we’ve regressed and so our youth products don’t have to be as good to break through.

I personally think City don’t really care about their academy, it’s an income stream for them but very few will get into the first team.

At 18-21 I’d argue Rashford and Greenwood had higher ceilings than say Sterling.
As much as Rashford is responsible for his decline this season due to his lack of effort and focus. I think being surrounded by yes men and bad coaches stunted his development. He’s 25 and still has bad habits you’d see with an 18 year old. Even Greenwood started developing bad habits before his incident. They weren’t developed properly here. If Rashford had been at city or Liverpool these last five years you’d be dealing with a very different player.

And yeah city don’t care about their academy. Not even sure they get significant financial benefits as chelsea did. It’s just another cog in their bullshit posturing, like New York City FC and Melbourne City.

 

[tomaldinho1]

At 18-21 I’d argue Rashford and Greenwood had higher ceilings than say Sterling.
As much as Rashford is responsible for his decline this season due to his lack of effort and focus. I think being surrounded by yes men and bad coaches stunted his development. He’s 25 and still has bad habits you’d see with an 18 year old. Even Greenwood started developing bad habits before his incident. They weren’t developed properly here. If Rashford had been at city or Liverpool these last five years you’d be dealing with a very different player.

And yeah city don’t care about their academy. Not even sure they get significant financial benefits as chelsea did. It’s just another cog in their bullshit posturing, like New York City FC and Melbourne City.

I agree re Rashford’s ceiling and have sympathy for him because Mou and Ole did wreck his development and turn him into a kick and rush player whose sole strength was just relying on his pace. That said, let’s say him and Greenwood he the potential be world class/elite (which is still debatable) our academy is hardly doing better than comparable clubs - Arsenal have Saka, Smith-Rowe, Nketiah: Spurs have Skipp, Tananga, Kane, Winks; WHUM have Johnson and Rice.

I think Rashford is 24 FYI, still time for him to become a good player but he needs a lot of coaching on his decision making and just seems not bothered these days sadly.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

I agree re Rashford’s ceiling and have sympathy for him because Mou and Ole did wreck his development and turn him into a kick and rush player whose sole strength was just relying on his pace. That said, let’s say him and Greenwood he the potential be world class/elite (which is still debatable) our academy is hardly doing better than comparable clubs - Arsenal have Saka, Smith-Rowe, Nketiah: Spurs have Skipp, Tananga, Kane, Winks; WHUM have Johnson and Rice.

I think Rashford is 24 FYI, still time for him to become a good player but he needs a lot of coaching on his decision making and just seems not bothered these days sadly.

Rashford became a kick and rush player because he isn't a dribbler nor does he have, or ever had the technique for that.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Rashford became a kick and rush player because he isn't a dribbler nor does he have, or ever had the technique for that.

Mate, we’ve seen Rashford absolutely skin players early in his career. That Pogba assist where he ghosts Ake, flippy flaps around another player and then lays it on a plate for Pogba I’ll remember forever. I just watched a YouTube vid and sat back in a wave of nostalgia - he was such a powerful runner but also highly technical.

Unless your bar is too high i.e. he’s not as good as Ronnie when he was here or Messi of 5 years ago then sure, he’s not in that bracket, but he had so much potential.

 

[justsomebloke]

We are in an endless cycle. Its okay to need a rebuild - but whats the point if you are expecting it to happen in a season or two? We keep sacking managers and then not giving the new one time or sufficient backing. Lets for an example pretend RR stays on, and wants to implement high press and sign the right players, then he needs almost an entire new squad. Its a 5 year project. The fans, owners, media will create the pressure to oust him after two years of no trophies. Then we get a new manager. He wants a big physical side of players at their peak and we set about demolishing what the previous guy did and signing competely different players for different football. Dont see the cycle of it ending here

I don't think you can argue JM or OGS deserved more time. Probably not either of their two predecessors either, but there you could at least make some sort of case. The backing is debatable, though overall the club has invested as heavily as anyone over that period.

 

[justsomebloke]

As for confidence being shot that in itself is a problem. You can lose to an all-time City team but a number of our recent draws/poor performances haven’t come on the end of drubbings, we’ve actually not lost many under RR so if they’re still struggling for confidence from our previous manager they need shifting on that alone.

The players are shite, & a number have been for sometime. The difference is Bruno isn’t providing all world statistical performances to hide the dross others have been serving up for some time.

Arsenal are falling arse ways into 4th place, I’d barely call this resurgence something to aspire to. We’ve drawn our way out of it & Spurs are. . . Spurs. Being Arsenal next season would be marginally less depressing, relying on others to provide a chance at 4th.

Interesting point brought up on TV on Sunday: Rangnick has three fewer points than OGS from the games against teams we've played twice this season. 10 vs 13. As if things weren't depressing enough already.

 

[justsomebloke]

Not sure what your point is. They have some great young talent on the books Foden is exceptional, and remember Sancho left City for more opportunties. My point is we are still well behind on youth development. But we dont have the oil dollars to buy in whoever we want, so we should focus on youth system alongside a targeted and more effective recruitment strategy. So not buying the likes of Pogba or signing a Ronadlo or Sanchez, would save us money in long term. I would rather see youth coming through than disinterested prima donnas. What about you?

We have as much financial muscle as anyone, pretty much. Which is why our spending has been on par with any other club in the PL over the past few years. No top club in the world can rely primarily on its youth system to dtock the team. If you have 3-4 players in the squad from that source who are playing regular roles, you're doing well.

Just get the right players. Sometimes it's an academy kid, sometimes it's an underrated 15m prospect, sometimes it's a 100m star.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Mate, we’ve seen Rashford absolutely skin players early in his career. That Pogba assist where he ghosts Ake, flippy flaps around another player and then lays it on a plate for Pogba I’ll remember forever. I just watched a YouTube vid and sat back in a wave of nostalgia - he was such a powerful runner but also highly technical.

Unless your bar is too high i.e. he’s not as good as Ronnie when he was here or Messi of 5 years ago then sure, he’s not in that bracket, but he had so much potential.

No, that's one piece of skill. He doesn't do that every week and it's really low percentage stuff that modern football is moving away from (systems over individuals)

 

[tomaldinho1]

No, that's one piece of skill. He doesn't do that every week and it's really low percentage stuff that modern football is moving away from (systems over individuals)

Surely that is dribbling as a whole though? Coaches would rather minimise risk and carrying the ball under any kind of pressure isn’t usually a first choice - I feel you’re talking more about how he looks to you aesthetically compared to someone like Sancho who is more smooth on the ball. I remember Rashford as a technical and exciting dribbler who also had tricks up his sleeve when needed, that just slowly faded away under Mou and Ole until we see the shell of the player that is left.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

I don't think anyone is swearing by Murtough. But from what I've researched over the years and heard via podcasts from people who work in the game, Murtough's influence was very much restricted to everything other than the first team. And him being made DoF whilst Solskjaer was still Manager, was only to assist Solskjaer. Because it was Solskjaer the manager who had and was setting the mid to long-term plan. Murtough's first test as DoF was when he was tasked with bringing in a interim. His second test will be the summer window and he will be judged. And even the Ronaldo signing was down to Ole according to both The Athletic and Times newspaper. Where it was said, that Solskjaer ignored his coaching staff to go ahead with signing Ronaldo, because he felt Ronaldo's goals would make up for his deficiencies off the ball.

The manager controlled recruitment at first team level. The manager (Mourinho/Ole) was allowed his own personal scout(s) to sign players. I can provide a link to a article from Daniel Taylor from 2018, where he stated that United's decision makers on the football side didn't believe either Maguire or Alderweireld were good enough to elevate the team to a higher level. But Woodward still went ahead and signed both Maguire and Fernandes at later dates to back Solskjaer when it was reported that both players were deemed not of the requisite level by the United head of scouting. And those three people were Marcel Bout, Jim Lawlor and Mick Court who is the Head of the data analytics team.

Taylor is also a very good journalist and not someone like Samuel Luckhurst who is a Mourinho shill.

Thanks for the informative reply.

Now Murtough is given full power of DOF by Arnold, hope he can get the permanent manager appointment right and also improve on our player signings. These need to be done early for the manager and team to prepare well ahead for next season.

 

[Adnan]

Thanks for the informative reply.

Now Murtough is given full power of DOF by Arnold, hope he can get the permanent manager appointment right and also improve on our player signings. These need to be done early for the manager and team to prepare well ahead for next season.

Completely agree mate.

Murtough and the football departments under him will now be judged at first team level. Because it's gonna be them setting the directive and laying down the guiding principles for the scouts, on the profile of player to identify. And without a set guiding principle, a scouting network can't be utilised to it's full potential from what I've read, from people working in the game.

I could be wrong, but I'm excited for the future, because it's the first time in our history we're gonna go into a new season where someone other than the first team manager is gonna have control of the recruitment. And he's gonna have control whilst being supported by about 10 heads of department and about a further 60 scouts.

There will be bumps in the road, but I'm optimistic that conditions will be created where we will be able to build around a guiding principle where the whole setup moves in unison to create a uniformed approach to playing the game from the head coach/youth coaches/recruitment staff and throughout the club.

 

[lex talionis]

The challenge will be enticing a top manager to take over this mess. If we're successful in bringing in top manager, the next challenge will be getting club supporters behind a 1-2 year rebuild of the squad to even compete for the PL trophy.

 

[James Peril]

Yet half the bunch on here claim there is an agenda from other clubs, referees, the FA, pundits and what not against United. Which one is it? Do they hate United and influence decisions against them or do they find United irrelevant? Can’t be both surely!

 

[Revaulx]

Yet half the bunch on here claim there is an agenda from other clubs, referees, the FA, pundits and what not against United. Which one is it? Do they hate United and influence decisions against them or do they find United irrelevant? Can’t be both surely!

True

You have to cut people some slack for getting emotional on occasion and posting stuff that on reflection might be a bit OTT. We’re football fans, after all.

The overwhelming majority of people on here are all too aware that virtually all United’s problems are self-inflicted.

 

[Jezpeza]

I don't think you can argue JM or OGS deserved more time. Probably not either of their two predecessors either, but there you could at least make some sort of case. The backing is debatable, though overall the club has invested as heavily as anyone over that period.

thats my point. The ‘backing’ only counts per manager if every new manager wants to do something different with the team and squad. Its no good saying ‘we spent x over x period under 5 managers’. For instance ive read articles We’ve got people saying we have shite centrebacks - new manager needs 4 of those alone then? JM didn't deserve more time but it was painfully obvious the squad was miles short of where it needed to be regardless of manager and he got fred dalot and grant that final summer. I would like to see an ulterior universe where we didnt sign ronaldo which triggered Ole’s suicidal attempt at switching to posession based football which he couldnt coach. We now definitely have the wrong players for whatever Ralf is trying.

its a simple equation - the going rate when we sign a player is about 40-80m. New manager probably wants a new starting 11 bar Sancho and Bruno. New manager needs probably 500m to assemble their team. They wont get that in two seasons so will be sacked before they win anything for going trophy less here. Rinse and repeat - unless the new manager comes in to genuinely low expectations and is given 5 years to go mainly trophyless and build something then in a couple of years we will be back here with a ‘squad that needs rebuilding’ and a load more money wasted. I actually think the latter will happen

 

[justsomebloke]

thats my point. The ‘backing’ only counts per manager if every new manager wants to do something different with the team and squad. Its no good saying ‘we spent x over x period under 5 managers’. For instance ive read articles We’ve got people saying we have shite centrebacks - new manager needs 4 of those alone then? JM didn't deserve more time but it was painfully obvious the squad was miles short of where it needed to be regardless of manager and he got fred dalot and grant that final summer. I would like to see an ulterior universe where we didnt sign ronaldo which triggered Ole’s suicidal attempt at switching to posession based football which he couldnt coach. We now definitely have the wrong players for whatever Ralf is trying.

its a simple equation - the going rate when we sign a player is about 40-80m. New manager probably wants a new starting 11 bar Sancho and Bruno. New manager needs probably 500m to assemble their team. They wont get that in two seasons so will be sacked before they win anything for going trophy less here. Rinse and repeat - unless the new manager comes in to genuinely low expectations and is given 5 years to go mainly trophyless and build something then in a couple of years we will be back here with a ‘squad that needs rebuilding’ and a load more money wasted. I actually think the latter will happen

I think a simpler way to put that is there's a lack of joined-up long term thinking and planning. Every shift of manager brings a change in approach, which in turn undermines each new manager, who has to work with a squad unsuited to what he wants to do and is unable to develop something in time even with a transfer market backing on par with that available to any other club.

Also, there's a sense that there's no feel for timing. Every team is on a trajectory. There are points where it's right to work with what you have, and there are times where you have to invest to sustain a positive trajectory, or to reboot. For instance, the summer window of 2020 felt like a wasted opportunity. The team was coming off a really great last third of the previous season, where they seemed to have found both defensive stability and their attacking gear. But that wasn't sustainable - there were too many flimsy or weak areas that needed strengthening, and almost none of them were addressed. Added to that of course was a horrific schedule and a lack of preseason which limited a lot of things, resulting in a pragmatic game-to-game approach that in the end wasn't sustainable either. Momentum petered out, deficiencies became exposed, confidence eroded, key players were overused. It still looks like a wasted opportunity.