Solskjaer's legacy and his future

[Anustart89]

Why do we have so many of these weird fans who support Jose Mourinho and want to put him on a pedestal at all costs?

I liked Jose but he ultimately deserved to be sacked as he didn't achieve consistent results on the pitch, before preceeding to fall out with literally everyone.

I don’t think anyone puts Mourinho on a pedestal or is attempting to rewrite history with regards to his implosion which rightly got him booted out of the club, but with the benefit of hindsight he was right about a lot of things and players who are still at this club. I mean we wanted him sacked because he wanted to get rid of our precious jewels Martial, Pogba and Shaw (me included) but three years on it’s hardly as if these have been players who have shown the quality, fitness or mentality required to take us back to where we think we should be as a club.

It’s hardly as if any of those three have proven him massively wrong and showed themselves to be irreplaceable (for the money they could’ve fetched at the time) over the three years since he left the club, apart from Shaw during that one season last year and Pogba during Ole’s interim run, and I’m saying that as one of the people who have been defending Pogba whenever possible.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

No actually he did, it was counter attacking football. Ole had a good phase too, like what Xavi has had now.

Its quite interesting to see Xavi coming out saying in England players after a bit of form are over rated when he has had a good month and is being over rated by Barca and other fans.

It wasn't supposed to be counter attacking with Ole. He was adamant at the start we would be playing a high pressing, front foot football and then went on to sign players who didn't suit the system which in turn forced him to stick with the counter attacking. Xavi knew from the start what he wanted and will stick by it . I understand its early days with Xavi but knocking 4 goals past each of Valencia, Atletic, Osasuna, Napoli, Bilbao and Madrid since the start of the year isn't coincidental.

 

[romufc]

It wasn't supposed to be counter attacking with Ole. He was adamant at the start we would be playing a high pressing, front foot football and then went on to sign players who didn't suit the system which in turn forced him to stick with the counter attacking. Xavi knew from the start what he wanted and will stick by it . I understand its early days with Xavi but knocking 4 goals past each of Valencia, Atletic, Osasuna, Napoli, Bilbao and Madrid since the start of the year isn't coincidental.

Yeah I get that, I think Xavi could go onto become a good manager, much better than Ole.

However; this season when he came in there was no pressure for him, it will be different when he is under pressure to win things.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Yeah I get that, I think Xavi could go onto become a good manager, much better than Ole.

However; this season when he came in there was no pressure for him, it will be different when he is under pressure to win things.

Guardiola, Enrique and now perhaps Xavi. I wish Barca would share their secret on how to turn ex players into exceptional managers.

 

[fergiewherearethou]

What has he done? Won something?

Not yet, but the way Barcelona are looking and starting to play he certainly has more chances that Ole.

 

[romufc]

Guardiola, Enrique and now perhaps Xavi. I wish Barca would share their secret on how to turn ex players into exceptional managers.

With Xavi it was the worst kept secret that he will become their manager.

I think these are just very tactical and clever people who know how they want to play.

 

[Vaultech]

Guardiola, Enrique and now perhaps Xavi. I wish Barca would share their secret on how to turn ex players into exceptional managers.

Not have Fergie as a manager. Fergie despite his brilliance, is bad at teaching his players how to be a good manager.

He can get away with not caring about tactics because he was special. But most players and managers can't be him. Most good managers have to learn a lot about tactics and how to implemenet them.

It's easier to emulate Cruyff than it is to emulate Fergie. His players all learnt the wrong lesson in wanting to emulate him.

That and Fergie's school of football had became outdated. Until a new brilliant manager comes in and somehow makes 4-4-2 a valuable formation again... It's not likely to happen to United.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

After 3 years Ole still didn't know the style of play he wanted for us. It took Xavi about 3 minutes. The difference is night and day.

Exactly. Ole identified RB and CB as two positions that we needed to strengthen and invested 130m only to find out that we had not improved that much. Hard to see Xavi doing the same. Torres is a very good signing.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

With Xavi it was the worst kept secret that he will become their manager.

I think these are just very tactical and clever people who know how they want to play.

Xavi was very clever in turning Barca down twice before he finally came. He's come at the perfect time with the emergence of players like Pedri, Gavi, Araujo, Nico and already having players like Fati, F. De Jong and Dembele. Bringing in Torres, Adama and Auba was a very astute move by the club and within a very short space of time the whole atmosphere at the club has changed.

Great players but they still need to be coached and I think Xavi will thrive with this team.

Not have Fergie as a manager. Fergie despite his brilliance, is bad at teaching his players how to be a good manager.

He can get away with not caring about tactics because he was special. But most players and managers can't be him. Most good managers have to learn a lot about tactics and how to implemenet them.

It's easier to emulate Cruyff than it is to emulate Fergie. His players all learnt the wrong lesson in wanting to emulate him.

That and Fergie's school of football had became outdated. Until a new brilliant manager comes in and somehow makes 4-4-2 a valuable formation again... It's not likely to happen to United.

I think you're being a tad harsh on SAF. While it's true he was more old school his biggest rival was Wenger. A complete hipster for his time. A very meticulous professor of the sport who I'm sure went into great details every time his team played. How many of his ex players have went on to have great managerial careers? Not a one although Viera might still have a chance.

I don't know if there's some sort of formula to make a great manager or if it's inbuilt into them from the beginning but Barca churning out 2, possibly 3 great managers in a short space of time certainly can't be a coincidence. Many players play under great managers but very few make the grade themselves which does ponder the question.

Exactly. Ole identified RB and CB as two positions that we needed to strengthen and invested 130m only to find out that we had not improved that much. Hard to see Xavi doing the same. Torres is a very good signing.

Surprised me when Torres left City. He was looking a good buy up until his injury. Maybe looking for more playing time to up his chances for the WC. He certainly went there at an exciting time. It's amazing how clubs can turn their fortunes round in such a short space of time and we're still struggling 10 years later.

 

[Amir]

How they worked from day to day is up to them. Some managers let other take controll of some things. Some others want to controll everything.

At the very least, though, a manager should be the one deciding and dictating a certain style of play. He doesn't have to do the actual coaching for that, but if he doesn't do the coaching and doesn't have final power in selecting which players to bring in - which should be vital, as he's the best one to know which players fit his style - then I'm not sure what's the point of him.

Part of the issue is, I don't think Solskjaer had a clear style and it was reflected in our transfers.

Big problem is that post Fergie we have been buying ”popular” players to please fans. Solskjaer was no stranger to that. We didn’t need some of those big transfers. Lot of bad, bad transfers have now happened post Fergie. Players we didn’t need. Players that get lot of money and they don’t need to perform. They know that. They will still play because of power. When you put those players in the corner with some kind of pressure they fall apart. This is also applied to homegrown players. And then blaming game starts. Who goes out first? Always managers because it is easier to change one instead of 15. I hope club can stick with Rangnick if he wants and not get some ”popular”manager. Regardless what happens, new manager time.

I don't think we signed these players to please fans. We wanted them, or most of them, because the manager wanted them. But I would agree that going for the big transfer time and time again was not right and didn't not solve anything.

As for Rangnick, I hope we stick with him and give him some power in our system. Not as a manager, though. We had a plan when he was brought and we should stick to it - unlike what we did after Mourinho.

 

[AjaxCunian]

People still see finishing above Liverpool as an achievement in big March 2022. Absolutely unreal.

It was a clear Liverpool freak season with ridiculous injuries, as soon as that got sorted they were clearly miles better than us and spanked us at Old Trafford.

 

[90 + 5min]

At the very least, though, a manager should be the one deciding and dictating a certain style of play. He doesn't have to do the actual coaching for that, but if he doesn't do the coaching and doesn't have final power in selecting which players to bring in - which should be vital, as he's the best one to know which players fit his style - then I'm not sure what's the point of him.

Part of the issue is, I don't think Solskjaer had a clear style and it was reflected in our transfers.



I don't think we signed these players to please fans. We wanted them, or most of them, because the manager wanted them. But I would agree that going for the big transfer time and time again was not right and didn't not solve anything.

As for Rangnick, I hope we stick with him and give him some power in our system. Not as a manager, though. We had a plan when he was brought and we should stick to it - unlike what we did after Mourinho.

I think we had a style. It was fast transition from defending to attacking with lot of space and freedom for attacking players in the last third. He did put lot of thrust in players ability. System required also that our attacking players learned defending which they didn't. At least not in Solskjaer last season. They started walking and leaving spaces for opposition to dominate midfield. Our midfield were overun pretty much every game. People loved to have a go at Fred and McTominay but they couldn't cover 50m wide and 70m lenght of the football pitch alone while our wingers and other offensive players walked around. Just watch how many chances we allowed from left or right side. Or just watch how many times Maguire and Lindelof had to step up to help, only to be caught with a longer ball. With Rangnick I have seen little better organisation to close spaces and save energy even when we press. Basic problem is still the same. Lot of passengers and players that hide.

Rangnick need to stay. We agree on that even if we don't really agree on position. However, as you said, maybe we should follow the plan we had but I wouldn't mind him as a manager and to give him time.

People still see finishing above Liverpool as an achievement in big March 2022. Absolutely unreal.

It was a clear Liverpool freak season with ridiculous injuries, as soon as that got sorted they were clearly miles better than us and spanked us at Old Trafford.

Achievement in some big way? No. But it is a fact. People can say that Liverpool had injuries but so did we.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

After 3 years Ole still didn't know the style of play he wanted for us. It took Xavi about 3 minutes. The difference is night and day.

Xavi took over a team that has had one footballing culture and direction for decades taught in its academy, second team and before the idiocy of their last presidential regime the first team

Solskaer took over a team that had changed direction from Moyes, to LVG, to Mourinho and then to him. That is where the real night and day comes in. Neither situation is comparable to the other.

A United for example will only improve when the next manager is allowed to make a massive clear out and start his ideas with a clean slate. Xavi in comparison arrived at a Barca where most of the first team and the entire youth available intimately know the kind of football he wants to implement. He was never going to have as much trouble truing the ship around

 

[Vaultech]

I think you're being a tad harsh on SAF. While it's true he was more old school his biggest rival was Wenger. A complete hipster for his time. A very meticulous professor of the sport who I'm sure went into great details every time his team played. How many of his ex players have went on to have great managerial careers? Not a one although Viera might still have a chance.

I don't know if there's some sort of formula to make a great manager or if it's inbuilt into them from the beginning but Barca churning out 2, possibly 3 great managers in a short space of time certainly can't be a coincidence. Many players play under great managers but very few make the grade themselves which does ponder the question.

Wenger actually don't coach his players as much as commonly believed. Wenger tends to prefer players learning what to do for themselves on the pitch. He don't go into great detail, and why in his later years failed to win big with Arsenal. One clue is the issue with Fabregas, who under him went from a youngster schooled in Barca way to a player that was simply too tactically undisciplined for Barca in his position. There were a lot of talks from Arsenal that Arteta paid more attention to the tea tactics than Wenger did.

At Barca, players were taught to think very deeply about the game. Especially the midfielders. That sort of education can help a coach immensely. The rest is just dependent on the player's personality, whether they have the charisma and authority to implement those footballing philosophy.

To be a good manager, you mostly need a few things. One is charisma. You need to have the personality to convince players what you are telling them to do is the right thing. The other is a keen understanding of tactics. In this day and age teams have so much tactical data that you can't afford to neglect those aspects any more. Every team has an army of analyst in the background telling the mangers what the opposition is up to.

A lot of United players who became managers have the first but not the latter. The tactical education they were getting in the PL were lightyears behind what a player will be getting at Barca under their top managers.

 

[Amir]

It's amazing how clubs can turn their fortunes round in such a short space of time and we're still struggling 10 years later.

One good managerial appointment can do wonders. Just one.

 

[Idxomer]

People still see finishing above Liverpool as an achievement in big March 2022. Absolutely unreal.

It was a clear Liverpool freak season with ridiculous injuries, as soon as that got sorted they were clearly miles better than us and spanked us at Old Trafford.

They will never admit defeat.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Xavi took over a team that has had one footballing culture and direction for decades taught in its academy, second team and before the idiocy of their last presidential regime the first team

Solskaer took over a team that had changed direction from Moyes, to LVG, to Mourinho and then to him. That is where the real night and day comes in. Neither situation is comparable to the other.

A United for example will only improve when the next manager is allowed to make a massive clear out and start his ideas with a clean slate. Xavi in comparison arrived at a Barca where most of the first team and the entire youth available intimately know the kind of football he wants to implement. He was never going to have as much trouble truing the ship around

Come on. You make it sound like all Xavi (or any other manager) had to do was turn up and Barcas fortunes would miraculously change. Why couldn't Koeman get a tune out of them if it was so easy? After all, he was part of the dream team.

The real night and day is Xavi coming into a team of aging players, Busquets, Alba, Pique, Alves with academy players who are 17-18, realising what needed to be done by bringing in Auba, Adama and Ferran and actually gelling it all together which is a hell of a lot harder than what it sounds.

On the other hand, you said yourself, "A United for example will only improve when the next manager is allowed to make a massive clear out and start his ideas with a clean slate." Didn't Ole have that luxury for 3 years leaving us in no better shape than what it was when Mourinho left?

Defend Ole all you like but I stand by my statement that what Ole has done at United and what Xavi is currently doing at Barca is so obviously different it shouldn't need explaining.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

After 3 years Ole still didn't know the style of play he wanted for us. It took Xavi about 3 minutes. The difference is night and day.

A big issue with us is we buy badly then instead of rectifying the issue we persist with it. Barca bought Depay, fainfair, he was meh so they’ve pretty much moved on already. Here we are with Pogba, Fred, Maguire & co.

We buy high then instead of admitting defeat continue to shoehorn players in. It’d be great to get it right at the first opportunity but when we don’t we labour the issue. OgS should have been sacked after Sevilla, I don’t see how a proper club can look at that result & the performances around it but not question things.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

A big issue with us is we buy badly then instead of rectifying the issue we persist with it. Barca bought Depay, fainfair, he was meh so they’ve pretty much moved on already. Here we are with Pogba, Fred, Maguire & co.

We buy high then instead of admitting defeat continue to shoehorn players in. It’d be great to get it right at the first opportunity but when we don’t we labour the issue. OgS should have been sacked after Sevilla, I don’t see how a proper club can look at that result & the performances around it but not question things.

This is one of the things I love about Ralf. He came in and shook the team up by dropping previously undroppable players. I think he's got his hands tied with Ronaldo but he has shown a ruthless streak that no one is safe which hopefully carries on when he's moved upstairs.

Hopefully the club allows him autonomy to do what needs to be done because a massive shake up is obviously needed. Bringing in Ralf and getting rid of Woodward will hopefully be the springboard to get us back on track.

 

[Vaultech]

No actually he did, it was counter attacking football. Ole had a good phase too, like what Xavi has had now.

Its quite interesting to see Xavi coming out saying in England players after a bit of form are over rated when he has had a good month and is being over rated by Barca and other fans.

Counter-attacking football have a limited lifespan, especially for top clubs. Eventually other teams are going to realise what you are doing and simply park the bus themselves. It's why counter-attacking football tends to be the football played by mid-table clubs and relegation candidates.

Ole won games in his first few season in charge was because other teams saw the United team as weak and dared to play more aggressively against Ole's team. Eventually they realised Ole have no solution against breaking down a team parking the bus and simply parked the bus in front of him.

Xavi because of his Barca-education basically did the opposite. He didn't opt for the easy way out and simply play counter-attacking football. He worked and trained the team so they can dominate games even against stronger teams (on paper).

 

[Owen11]

I don’t think anyone puts Mourinho on a pedestal or is attempting to rewrite history with regards to his implosion which rightly got him booted out of the club, but with the benefit of hindsight he was right about a lot of things and players who are still at this club. I mean we wanted him sacked because he wanted to get rid of our precious jewels Martial, Pogba and Shaw (me included) but three years on it’s hardly as if these have been players who have shown the quality, fitness or mentality required to take us back to where we think we should be as a club.

It’s hardly as if any of those three have proven him massively wrong and showed themselves to be irreplaceable (for the money they could’ve fetched at the time) over the three years since he left the club, apart from Shaw during that one season last year and Pogba during Ole’s interim run, and I’m saying that as one of the people who have been defending Pogba whenever possible.

I have a question for you

What where you expecting Pogba to achieve under ole? Or any other player for that matter?
Win ballon dor? PFA player of year?
Compete with players from Liverpool and city who were being coached by pep and klopp?
I don't think posters and fans have realized what a disaster appointing ole was, our players had no chance.
Greenwood is far behind foden and saka now,
Pogba despite his talent and and success at juve and France is no where near de bruyne at City,
Rashford and martial has collapsed.

It's funny to see people call our players all sort of names now but hardly anyone on here had their best interest at heart when considering hiring ole full time.

I remember the general saying was win games for ole or you are shit, whenever we won ole was a genius and whenever we didn't Mourinho was right, it didn't help that our fans were and are gullible as well.
Our players carried ole on their backs, he had no tactics or whatsoever, the Europa league runs, the comebacks it was all them.
Pogba, Bruno, martial, rashford, greenwood, Fred and degea, these players carried him until they couldn't and that's why he was loyal to them and still will be in the future.
You'll never hear ole say a bad word about any of those players above,he knew what they did for him.

 

[fergiewherearethou]

Counter-attacking football have a limited lifespan, especially for top clubs. Eventually other teams are going to realise what you are doing and simply park the bus themselves. It's why counter-attacking football tends to be the football played by mid-table clubs and relegation candidates.

Ole won games in his first few season in charge was because other teams saw the United team as weak and dared to play more aggressively against Ole's team. Eventually they realised Ole have no solution against breaking down a team parking the bus and simply parked the bus in front of him.

Xavi because of his Barca-education basically did the opposite. He didn't opt for the easy way out and simply play counter-attacking football. He worked and trained the team so they can dominate games even against stronger teams (on paper).

I tend to agree about counter-attacking football, Mourinho had success with such style at Inter and then Real Madrid, Conte won the title with Chelsea, Ranieri with Leicester but the it didn't last long for any of them.

Playing a possession-high pressing style of football is far more risky, harder to implement and it takes a long time to master but the rewards are high in terms of general view of the team, appreciation of the fans and if you also win trophies well, that's just perfect. I think it also helps with the relationship between manager and players, there are not many cases of managers adopting such a style to fall out with players, maybe it is much more enjoyable for them as well.
It is also easier to make a fool of yourself by trying to implement it with the wrong players, the example is Enrique at Roma.

For us, I will always prefer if we try something like that, with all the risks involved.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Come on. You make it sound like all Xavi (or any other manager) had to do was turn up and Barcas fortunes would miraculously change. Why couldn't Koeman get a tune out of them if it was so easy? After all, he was part of the dream team.

First off, I don't make it sound miraculous. There is nothing miraculous about Laporta picking the right man to move Barca forward, supporting and trusting him to do so. This guy did it the first time when he picked Rikjaard and then Pep when Barca was in a bad way each time. I thought that went without saying so I dibt bother mentioning it.

Xavi's success is DIRECTLY because he is the absolute right man for the task at hand: A man to lead with the traditional footballing principles using LA masia more than recruiting as the for for a rebuild. Plus a brave choice by Laporta because it would have been way easier to go for a more established name.

Second, Koeman couldnt get a tune out of the team for two reasons. First, he wasn't implementing Barca's core traditional footballing principles and secondly, the barca hierachy neither respected, believe in nor liked him. Its kinda hard to succeed with both hanging over your head.

The real night and day is Xavi coming into a team of aging players, Busquets, Alba, Pique, Alves with academy players who are 17-18, realising what needed to be done by bringing in Auba, Adama and Ferran and actually gelling it all together which is a hell of a lot harder than what it sounds.

You simply keep missing the point! The old guard and the La Masia lads led by the outsider Pedri are ALL schooled in Barcelona's traditional footballing principles. Gelling that football together was NEVER going be hard. Especially when he was literally their leader and implementor in chief of those things as player himself, not long ago.

I can guarantee if he was taking over a dressing room like United that doesn't have ANY players from one footballing direction, nor an under lying club philosophy from the youth, schooled in the footballing principles he believes in, he'd have objectively found it 3 times as hard to make even a quarter of the progress he has had at Barca.


What has actually taken people by surprise is the excellent recruitment of missing pieces of the squad in the January window that has allowed Xavi's Barca to close the footballing gap between themselves and Real Madrid. Both Xavi and the leadership deserve credit for identifying the right targets (Xavi) and supporting the plans (Laporta and crew).

United has no such synergy and that is a bigger reason why things have consistently failed since Fergie left. Its ultra simplistic to pretend its just the coaches who weren't good enough. That is the true day and night between both clubs.

On the other hand, you said yourself, "A United for example will only improve when the next manager is allowed to make a massive clear out and start his ideas with a clean slate." Didn't Ole have that luxury for 3 years leaving us in no better shape than what it was when Mourinho left?

Let's count the players still from past regimes at the core of the first team in that period:
Degea, Shaw, Bailly, Lindeloff, Fred, Mctominay, Matic, Pogba, Rashford, Lingard, Martial, Mata

All ole added was AWB, telles, Maguire, dvb, James who was exchanged for cr7, Cavani and Bruno Fernandes

First, that wasn't much of a clear out

Second. People need to stop pedaling that lie. Mourinho left behind a broken and utterly disunited dressing room and a club strugglng to maintain a Europa league spot. Ole got the dressing to a better state, re established a link to the youth and first team and the oath way between the two and did not struggle to finish top 4 two seasons running. He was just never good enough to take the club to the next step of challenging, in spite of his several semi finals and trips to a final, so hit a wall and needed to be rightly replaced this time with a proper long term plan. You don't have to rate him as a manager to give him credit where its due. He definitely left United in a better state than he found it. Just not competitive enough.

Defend Ole all you like but I stand by my statement that what Ole has done at United and what Xavi is currently doing at Barca is so obviously different it shouldn't need explaining.

I insist Barcelona and Manchester United are not renotely in the same state for the situations to be comparable. That's something that shouldn't need ANY explaining.


I also know Ole is your favorite punching bag. But it will serve you well to realize everything I stated about the club was the exact same for Jose Mourinho. Anyone who thinks a Xavi would do what he has beeb doing at Barca' in United's current situation yielded by the Woodward era or errors, because of his coaching skill alone, is simply deluded beyond reason, I'm sorry to say.

 

[Mainoldo]

First off, I don't make it sound miraculous. There is nothing miraculous about Laporta picking the right man to move Barca forward, supporting and trusting him to do so. This guy did it the first time when he picked Rikjaard and then Pep when Barca was in a bad way each time. I thought that went without saying so I dibt bother mentioning it.

Xavi's success is DIRECTLY because he is the absolute right man for the task at hand: A man to lead with the traditional footballing principles using LA masia more than recruiting as the for for a rebuild. Plus a brave choice by Laporta because it would have been way easier to go for a more established name.

Second, Koeman couldnt get a tune out of the team for two reasons. First, he wasn't implementing Barca's core traditional footballing principles and secondly, the barca hierachy neither respected, believe in nor liked him. Its kinda hard to succeed with both hanging over your head.



You simply keep missing the point! The old guard and the La Masia lads led by the outsider Pedri are ALL schooled in Barcelona's traditional footballing principles. Gelling that football together was NEVER going be hard. Especially when he was literally their leader and implementor in chief of those things as player himself, not long ago.

I can guarantee if he was taking over a dressing room like United that doesn't have ANY players from one footballing direction, nor an under lying club philosophy from the youth, schooled in the footballing principles he believes in, he'd have objectively found it 3 times as hard to make even a quarter of the progress he has had at Barca.


What has actually taken people by surprise is the excellent recruitment of missing pieces of the squad in the January window that has allowed Xavi's Barca to close the footballing gap between themselves and Real Madrid. Both Xavi and the leadership deserve credit for identifying the right targets (Xavi) and supporting the plans (Laporta and crew).

United has no such synergy and that is a bigger reason why things have consistently failed since Fergie left. Its ultra simplistic to pretend its just the coaches who weren't good enough. That is the true day and night between both clubs.



Let's count the players still from past regimes at the core of the first team in that period:
Degea, Shaw, Bailly, Lindeloff, Fred, Mctominay, Matic, Pogba, Rashford, Lingard, Martial, Mata

All ole added was AWB, telles, Maguire, dvb, James who was exchanged for cr7, Cavani and Bruno Fernandes

First, that wasn't much of a clear out

Second. People need to stop pedaling that lie. Mourinho left behind a broken and utterly disunited dressing room and a club strugglng to maintain a Europa league spot. Ole got the dressing to a better state, re established a link to the youth and first team and the oath way between the two and did not struggle to finish top 4 two seasons running. He was just never good enough to take the club to the next step of challenging, in spite of his several semi finals and trips to a final, so hit a wall and needed to be rightly replaced this time with a proper long term plan. You don't have to rate him as a manager to give him credit where its due. He definitely left United in a better state than he found it. Just not competitive enough.




I insist Barcelona and Manchester United are not renotely in the same state for the situations to be comparable. That's something that shouldn't need ANY explaining.


I also know Ole is your favorite punching bag. But it will serve you well to realize everything I stated about the club was the exact same for Jose Mourinho. Anyone who thinks a Xavi would do what he has beeb doing at Barca' in United's current situation yielded by the Woodward era or errors, because of his coaching skill alone, is simply deluded beyond reason, I'm sorry to say.

We literally had a clean slate to do what Xavi has done and we gave it Ole. It’s not even a hard equation.


He had a summer to pick a philosophy and style and identify who should stay and leave. It was a big decision and we gave it to someone unqualified with total control.

What was those decisions?

Fast attacking football, the United way.

He removed Chris Smalling and replaced him with Harry Maguire…. Why was that? I’ll let you tell me.

We needed a RB we brought AWB. Well he ticked the fast box, he just forgot about the attacking

Dan James, fast attacking winger. Signed on a recommendation whilst I point out Ferran Torres was on our scout list.

Uptop we felt Lukaku’s style wasn’t what we wanted and I take it behind the scenes we seen Martial as good enough to lead the line with either a punt on Dybala or Manzukic as a back up.

Then there was the midfield. The idea even then was that we didn’t need a DM, Tielemans was only an option if Pogba left and still is, whilst Bruno was decided against as he couldn’t retain possession. There was also a push that Mctominay was the future and potential United captain. We signed a deal with PES and we told them to use Scotty as we felt his bright future deserved an upped profile.

I mean if you read it, it’s a mess in itself.

We can argue if this was driven by Ole himself but it was clearly disjointed.

 

[mctrials23]

People still see finishing above Liverpool as an achievement in big March 2022. Absolutely unreal.

It was a clear Liverpool freak season with ridiculous injuries, as soon as that got sorted they were clearly miles better than us and spanked us at Old Trafford.

Thats a pretty good microcosm for the United fanbase and their ability to see the big picture. Liverpool had an awful season for injuries and didn't thrive on having an empty stadium. We had few injuries, seemed to be quite happy playing in an empty room and won a lot of games which we didn't deserve to win. That was peak Ole. Play like junk and sneak a win or even beat a team by a few goals despite being second best for 70+ minutes. Fans didn't seem to think there was any potential problem with that...

Unsurprisingly, Liverpool are back to where they were before now that they haven't got half their team missing and have the fans back and we are still utter junk because the fundamentals which our team is built on are complete trash.

 

[Vaultech]

Thats a pretty good microcosm for the United fanbase and their ability to see the big picture. Liverpool had an awful season for injuries and didn't thrive on having an empty stadium. We had few injuries, seemed to be quite happy playing in an empty room and won a lot of games which we didn't deserve to win. That was peak Ole. Play like junk and sneak a win or even beat a team by a few goals despite being second best for 70+ minutes. Fans didn't seem to think there was any potential problem with that...

Unsurprisingly, Liverpool are back to where they were before now that they haven't got half their team missing and have the fans back and we are still utter junk because the fundamentals which our team is built on are complete trash.

It's such a United fanbase problem. I hated how even in the later years of Fergie's management, fans are happy with shit performances as long as the team won the match.

That translate into how they view football under Ole as well. At other big clubs, there's demand for not only winning games, but to win them in style as well.

Fans mocked the fans who said United need a good "style of play". It's those fans that allowed bad managers or the wrong manager to last at United for far too long.

A more vocal and demanding fanbase would have allowed United to win more titles in the past 10 years.

 

[IWat]

It's such a United fanbase problem. I hated how even in the later years of Fergie's management, fans are happy with shit performances as long as the team won the match.

That translate into how they view football under Ole as well. At other big clubs, there's demand for not only winning games, but to win them in style as well.

Fans mocked the fans who said United need a good "style of play". It's those fans that allowed bad managers or the wrong manager to last at United for far too long.

A more vocal and demanding fanbase would have allowed United to win more titles in the past 10 years.

Fergie at least had the philosophy that he wanted value in the market. OK we didn't really replace Ronaldo etc with some super signing, but you look at our transfers in 09/10 and we picked up Valencia, Cleverley, 10/11 we got Smalling, Hernandez, Cleverley, Welbeck, 11/12 Lingard, Kagawa, van Persie.

Most of them came for relatively little, sure - they had varying levels of success. In some cases not at all helped by the clusterfeck that happened after Fergie left. But you can at least see the method behind it. Clubs knew we weren't going to pay over the odds and we'd go try to find the diamonds in the rough rather than be bent over a barrel.

Now we have players who we've paid £80m for (Maguire) who are worse defenders than Smalling, which we paid £7.2m for, even with inflation it's horrendous.

 

[Bebestation]

I think if Ole looked at Daniel James and couldn't see some his inability then that shows off one of his main issues as a manager.

 

[AjaxCunian]

I think we had a style. It was fast transition from defending to attacking with lot of space and freedom for attacking players in the last third. He did put lot of thrust in players ability. System required also that our attacking players learned defending which they didn't. At least not in Solskjaer last season. They started walking and leaving spaces for opposition to dominate midfield. Our midfield were overun pretty much every game. People loved to have a go at Fred and McTominay but they couldn't cover 50m wide and 70m lenght of the football pitch alone while our wingers and other offensive players walked around. Just watch how many chances we allowed from left or right side. Or just watch how many times Maguire and Lindelof had to step up to help, only to be caught with a longer ball. With Rangnick I have seen little better organisation to close spaces and save energy even when we press. Basic problem is still the same. Lot of passengers and players that hide.

Rangnick need to stay. We agree on that even if we don't really agree on position. However, as you said, maybe we should follow the plan we had but I wouldn't mind him as a manager and to give him time.


Achievement in some big way? No. But it is a fact. People can say that Liverpool had injuries but so did we.

It is no achievement, it meant absolutely nothing in the grand scheme. 0. And we saw that clearly in the new season and even that season if you were paying attention.

 

[Kaos]

I think if ETH ends up a) being hired by us and b) ends up being a success. Then it might turn out that Solskjaer's only positive legacy would have been to have kept the job long enough for us not to hire someone like Poch, and made ETH a viable recruit

 

[Forevergiggs1]

First off, I don't make it sound miraculous. There is nothing miraculous about Laporta picking the right man to move Barca forward, supporting and trusting him to do so. This guy did it the first time when he picked Rikjaard and then Pep when Barca was in a bad way each time. I thought that went without saying so I dibt bother mentioning it.

Xavi's success is DIRECTLY because he is the absolute right man for the task at hand: A man to lead with the traditional footballing principles using LA masia more than recruiting as the for for a rebuild. Plus a brave choice by Laporta because it would have been way easier to go for a more established name.

Second, Koeman couldnt get a tune out of the team for two reasons. First, he wasn't implementing Barca's core traditional footballing principles and secondly, the barca hierachy neither respected, believe in nor liked him. Its kinda hard to succeed with both hanging over your head.



You simply keep missing the point! The old guard and the La Masia lads led by the outsider Pedri are ALL schooled in Barcelona's traditional footballing principles. Gelling that football together was NEVER going be hard. Especially when he was literally their leader and implementor in chief of those things as player himself, not long ago.

I can guarantee if he was taking over a dressing room like United that doesn't have ANY players from one footballing direction, nor an under lying club philosophy from the youth, schooled in the footballing principles he believes in, he'd have objectively found it 3 times as hard to make even a quarter of the progress he has had at Barca.


What has actually taken people by surprise is the excellent recruitment of missing pieces of the squad in the January window that has allowed Xavi's Barca to close the footballing gap between themselves and Real Madrid. Both Xavi and the leadership deserve credit for identifying the right targets (Xavi) and supporting the plans (Laporta and crew).

United has no such synergy and that is a bigger reason why things have consistently failed since Fergie left. Its ultra simplistic to pretend its just the coaches who weren't good enough. That is the true day and night between both clubs.



Let's count the players still from past regimes at the core of the first team in that period:
Degea, Shaw, Bailly, Lindeloff, Fred, Mctominay, Matic, Pogba, Rashford, Lingard, Martial, Mata

All ole added was AWB, telles, Maguire, dvb, James who was exchanged for cr7, Cavani and Bruno Fernandes

First, that wasn't much of a clear out

Second. People need to stop pedaling that lie. Mourinho left behind a broken and utterly disunited dressing room and a club strugglng to maintain a Europa league spot. Ole got the dressing to a better state, re established a link to the youth and first team and the oath way between the two and did not struggle to finish top 4 two seasons running. He was just never good enough to take the club to the next step of challenging, in spite of his several semi finals and trips to a final, so hit a wall and needed to be rightly replaced this time with a proper long term plan. You don't have to rate him as a manager to give him credit where its due. He definitely left United in a better state than he found it. Just not competitive enough.




I insist Barcelona and Manchester United are not renotely in the same state for the situations to be comparable. That's something that shouldn't need ANY explaining.


I also know Ole is your favorite punching bag. But it will serve you well to realize everything I stated about the club was the exact same for Jose Mourinho. Anyone who thinks a Xavi would do what he has beeb doing at Barca' in United's current situation yielded by the Woodward era or errors, because of his coaching skill alone, is simply deluded beyond reason, I'm sorry to say.

Believe it or not , I agree with large parts of what you're saying but I still stand by my initial comment that Ole after 3 years was still suffering an identity crisis at United, whereas Xavi knew from minute 1 exactly how he wanted to proceed.

Did Xavi have an easier transition than Ole? Undoubtedly but he still had big decisions to make, straight away identified what was missing and brought the team massively forward by the signings that he (the club) made.

On the other hand Ole came in, talked a great talk about how he wanted United to play front foot, attacking, aggressive football then proceeded to blow 130m on the slowest CB in the league and a RB that can't attack. You say he didn't have much of a clear out. He got rid of 13 players which is credit to him but where he failed miserably was replacing those players with suitable replacements. How he thought he could start the season with only Rashford, Martial and he who shall not be named as forwards I'll never know. He even said it himself that it was completely his decision so he took the blame on himself.

You say Ole inherited a broken, disunited team. I agree it was disunited but a team that finished second with 80+ points a few moths before couldn't of been that broken. Ole got rid of the so called bad influences in Lukaku and Sanchez. Old guard players like Young and Valencia so he basically started with a clean slate but what he did for the following 3 years after spending 400+m still is hard to take in and I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that he left the squad just as in a bad condition that he found it. How many players would you actually keep from this current squad? I think that says all you need to know.

There is a simpler way to explain it. Barca hired the right manager. We didn't.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Believe it or not , I agree with large parts of what you're saying but I still stand by my initial comment that Ole after 3 years was still suffering an identity crisis at United, whereas Xavi knew from minute 1 exactly how he wanted to proceed.

To be fair. Ole never had any indentity crisis. Through out his stay he was best as counter attack manager. The moment he tried to be proactive this season he died in that movie.

Did Xavi have an easier transition than Ole? Undoubtedly but he still had big decisions to make, straight away identified what was missing and brought the team massively forward by the signings that he (the club) made.

I insist. Nothing Xavi has faced is a tough as what Ole had to face when he walked into United. Same could be argued about Mourinho.


The only big decision Xavi has had to face is who to bring in during the January window to augument the team. He hasn't needed to pick a new captain. Hasn't needed to drastically change their football. Neither did he take over a divided dressing room. Just a deflated one.

On the other hand Ole came in, talked a great talk about how he wanted United to play front foot, attacking, aggressive football then proceeded to blow 130m on the slowest CB in the league and a RB that can't attack. You say he didn't have much of a clear out. He got rid of 13 players which is credit to him but where he failed miserably was replacing those players with suitable replacements. How he thought he could start the season with only Rashford, Martial and he who shall not be named as forwards I'll never know. He even said it himself that it was completely his decision so he took the blame on himself.

To be fair. He added cr7. Plus no one expected he who will not be named to blow up his own career.


Besides its not a lack of forwards that drowned him. It was trying to be what he is not.

You say Ole inherited a broken, disunited team. I agree it was disunited but a team that finished second with 80+ points a few moths before couldn't of been that broken.

Let's be honest. It was fractured enough to cost a too manager his job. Plus to finish the season poorly enough to convince the interim boss to start getting rid of a host of players.

How many players would you actually keep from this current squad?

Keepers: De gea

Fullbacks: Dalot, Shaw, Telles, AWB
Cbs: Varane, Lindeloff, Maguire
Cms: Mctominay, Fred, Van de beek, Pogba
AMS: Bruno, Mejbri
Attackers: Elanga, Sancho, CR7

I'd even add Rashford if he remebers his to play football and resets his attitude.

There is a simpler way to explain it. Barca hired the right manager. We didn't.

That's the problem. Its too simple.


Our problems have been deeper than just hiring the right guy.

 

[Devil’s Trident]

To be fair. Ole never had any indentity crisis. Through out his stay he was best as counter attack manager. The moment he tried to be proactive this season he died in that movie.




I insist. Nothing Xavi has faced is a tough as what Ole had to face when he walked into United. Same could be argued about Mourinho.


The only big decision Xavi has had to face is who to bring in during the January window to augument the team. He hasn't needed to pick a new captain. Hasn't needed to drastically change their football. Neither did he take over a divided dressing room. Just a deflated one.



To be fair. He added cr7. Plus no one expected he who will not be named to blow up his own career.


Besides its not a lack of forwards that drowned him. It was trying to be what he is not.


Let's be honest. It was fractured enough to cost a too manager his job. Plus to finish the season poorly enough to convince the interim boss to start getting rid of a host of players.


Keepers: De gea

Fullbacks: Dalot, Shaw, Telles, AWB
Cbs: Varane, Lindeloff, Maguire
Cms: Mctominay, Fred, Van de beek, Pogba
AMS: Bruno, Mejbri
Attackers: Elanga, Sancho, CR7

I'd even add Rashford if he remebers his to play football and resets his attitude.


That's the problem. Its too simple.


Our problems have been deeper than just hiring the right guy.

You would keep AWB , Maguire and mcfred ? Technically deficient players who neither can pass nor can keep the ball ? Also keep Luke Shaw who had good 6 months in 8 years and lazy as hell ? Makes sense why you see no wrong in Ole.

Also Xavi had to face a tough situation than ole. Saying the opposite is absolutely laughable. Change of president, messi’s departure, Barca fecked financially, average injury prone players, no identity, multiple issues on and off the pitch, the whole place was toxic. So much so every pundit or even the fans were saying it would years for Barca’s situation to improve. What Xavi has done is nothing short of exceptional. Ask any barca fan. I don’t know how much you follow Barca or la liga but your knowledge about the situation at Barca is very poor. Ole’s starting point at united was infinitely and I mean infinitely better than Xavi’s. We were light years ahead financially for a start compared to Barca.

 

[Mainoldo]

You would keep AWB , Maguire and mcfred ? Technically deficient players who neither can pass nor can keep the ball ? Also keep Luke Shaw who had good 6 months in 8 years and lazy as hell ? Makes sense why you see no wrong in Ole.

Also Xavi had to face a tough situation than ole. Saying the opposite is absolutely laughable. Change of president, messi’s departure, Barca fecked financially, average injury prone players, no identity, multiple issues on and off the pitch, the whole place was toxic. So much so every pundit or even the fans were saying it would years for Barca’s situation to improve. What Xavi has done is nothing short of exceptional. Ask any barca fan. I don’t know how much you follow Barca or la liga but your knowledge about the situation at Barca is very poor. Ole’s starting point at united was infinitely and I mean infinitely better than Xavi’s. We were light years ahead financially for a start compared to Barca.

Preach. These guys don’t really study other clubs. I mean the guy came in and identified they needed pace in the transition he brought two PnP players where his preference was Raheem Sterling and it’s shown promise. Those little details will go unmissised especially when you have posters saying he’s copying the la Masia approach which was set before him and already in place for him to succeed.

 

[Amir]

Our problems have been deeper than just hiring the right guy.

I'd say our main problem is what's led to us failing the appoint the right guy time and time again.

Having said that, hiring the right guy - even by coincidence - could solve a lot.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

This is one of the things I love about Ralf. He came in and shook the team up by dropping previously undroppable players. I think he's got his hands tied with Ronaldo but he has shown a ruthless streak that no one is safe which hopefully carries on when he's moved upstairs.

Hopefully the club allows him autonomy to do what needs to be done because a massive shake up is obviously needed. Bringing in Ralf and getting rid of Woodward will hopefully be the springboard to get us back on track.

its been incredible, absolutely incredible. the performance have been poor in an extremely easy run of games, and his form is the worst of any united team in 40 years, but at least he is showing those players who is boss !!!

 

[lex talionis]

The unquestioned faith Ole had in Fred and McTominay did him in. He suffered from other deficiencies as manager, but this above all stuck the fork in his own back.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I'd say our main problem is what's led to us failing the appoint the right guy time and time again.

Having said that, hiring the right guy - even by coincidence - could solve a lot.

Its a myth. We had a wrong person naed Woodward running our football affairs. No manager was going to succeed under him. The notion that one would have magically changed things at United is fantastical.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Fair enough. Though 'd insist you are wrong. We had a wrong man running footballing affairs. Period. It doesn't matter what quality of boss you put under him they were doomed to fail. Best thing that has happened is he left.

Having said that, hiring the right guy - even by coincidence - could solve a lot.

Not if we haven't solved the support crew above him. Currently I'm optimistic we have. But time will tell

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

You would keep AWB , Maguire and mcfred ? Technically deficient players who neither can pass nor can keep the ball ?

keep Luke Shaw who had good 6 months in 8 years and lazy as hell ? Makes sense why you see no wrong in Ole.

I would because firstly most of what you have just posted is hysterically laughable nonsense. Maguire and Fred technically deficient? Talk of being delusional.

no wonder you came up with the genius idea "I see no wrong in Ole'. You are clearly very good at not knowing what you are talking about.

Also Xavi had to face a tough situation than ole. Saying the opposite is absolutely laughable. Change of president, messi’s departure, Barca fecked financially, average injury prone players, no identity, multiple issues on and off the pitch, the whole place was toxic. So much so every pundit or even the fans were saying it would years for Barca’s situation to improve. What Xavi has done is nothing short of exceptional.

I'm not suprised you are just sprouting pundits opinion given the extreme shallowness of your arguments thus far. I'mgoing to debunk everyone one of your laughable claims about these alleged problems you say Xavi 'overcame':
1. Change of president:
Barca basically elected the best president they've had this century. The guy who turned their club's fortunes around twice in the 2000s by hiring and supporting Rijkaard and Guardiola. The guy whose excellent vision not only included faith in La masia, the know how and fortitude to pick the right manager and support them, a man who heartedly believe in the cruyffian footballing ethos of the club. The man whose principles resulted in the club being gifted by a golden generation led by Messi. The man who from the moment of his re appointment made it clear he had ear marked Xavi as his man to rebuild the club to its former glory
To claim it was a "problem for Xavi" for such a man to be in charge at barca is a classic case of not knowing what one is talking about.

2. Messi's departure:
Not only was it neccesary to save Barca financially. It was NEVER terminal. People like you bought into this notion Barca was absolutely nothing without Messi and would never be again.
The likes of Laporta who you consider "a problem' always had a concrete plan to mitigate his departure even though it hurt to lose an institution of a player.

3: Barca being fecked financially:

A blessing in disguise.

Firstly: The club finally had no choice but to harness the depth of potentially fantastic talent currently been produced at the club that the previous presidential regime utterly. Not only did Xavi walk into a club ready to put faith in its youth. He walked into one armed with youth fully trained in the footballing principles he espouses. With a hierarchy 100℅ supportive and determined to make such a project work.

Secondly and most importantly. Financial implosion led to the reflection of Laporta. The one Barca man with financial know how and foresight to get the club out of financial Armageddon and back to sporting glory. He did it in the early 2000s. He is the one man who can and WILL do it again.

No way in hell either scenario is bad for a Xavi and his philosophy of investing in youth with no fear as long as they have the talent.

4. Average injury prone players:
Literally the worst argument of the lot. The notion that barca was packed with "average players" who have suddenly became "excellent" under Xavi is beyond delusional. They were simply not being coached well enough and had lost their pride. You have to be crazy to think Ter Steven, Pique, Busquets, De Jong, Pedri to name but a few 'average'. They were mostly performing 60℅ below capacity. Whilst the medical department was doing very little thanks to neglect from the previous regime. The entire argument is just plain fallacious its untrue....


5. No identity:
Hands down the worst argument of the lot. Barcelona as a club have a distinct footballing identity. The issue at Barca was the previous regime hide people with no intention or plain incapable of using it.

Xavi walked into a club with a dressing room full of players he led playing the club's traditional footballing identity, as a football legend. A whole host of top young talent coming through fully trained in the art. Hired by a president who is 100% behind that singular philosophy. On top of having practiced at his last job the philosophy as a coach and won things with it. Re installing the footballing identity of the club was never EVER going to be difficult in such circumstances.



Frankly you need to stop playing with the scissors and cut the crap. You haven't a clue what you are talking about.

kAs any barca fan. I don’t know how much you follow Barca or la liga but your knowledge about the situation at Barca is very poor.

This is truly rich coming from a person who truly knows next to nothing about Barcelona's situation given what you argued earlier. I doubt you have even spoken to one genuine barca fan in your life!