Glazers / Woodward out! (One down)

[Fluctuation0161]

At this point I'd be prouder wearing a knock off United shirt than one bought through an official merchandiser. I would feel like I wasn't ripped off as much with the fake.

Same. Maybe I do.

 

[Spoony]

I've read that the Glazer siblings are somewhat divided in their opinions about owning United. Darcie sold shares to fund a waterfront mansion in Florida but Joel and Avi, the main protagonists, have been carrying on as normal. I still think the Super League plan will be resurrected at some point and they won't go if there's a chance of that money-spinner coming to fruition.

Do you think they're holding out for the ESL or perhaps a Dubai/anyone takeover pocketing anything upto 5 billion UK?

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Said it'll be 20 years before we challenge for the league since our last win and I stand by that. With the Glazers not really making any progress in any area of the club I can see it being even longer.

Glazers are a lead weight around the clubs neck. They are totally incapable of running a successful football (soccer) club, they don't understand the sport, they don't understand the fans, they don't even understand the culture. They want super leagues, money making marketing and multi ball.

 

[Moriarty]

Do you think they're holding out for the ESL or perhaps a Dubai/anyone takeover pocketing anything upto 5 billion UK?

They've been consistent in saying the club isn't for sale so my money is on the former. I'm hoping for a family split that might force a sale.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

This covers alot of the problems with the Glazers.

 

[Banana Republic]

Wasn’t it some mob called Ariel investments, could be wrong though.

Ariel Investments ?
Sounds like a money laundering operation to me.


.

 

[pascell]

The Glazers have shown in the past that they are immune to protests. Didn't Joel Glazer recently promise to have more fan interaction? Did it happen? I think it will take something like a sustained fan boycott of all games to get their undivided attention and that will be difficult, to say the least, to set up and adhere to.

He joined in a fans forum via zoom and answered pre recorded questions that were inevitably only questions that were ok'd by the club

What happened to the fan share scheme? Renovations to OT beyond a lick of exterior paint?

These feckers blinded too many fans with their bs post ESL

 

[wolvored]

Ariel Investments ?
Sounds like a money laundering operation to me.


.

 

[blythy]

We're fast approaching 12 months since Joel's 'promises'...

1. Fan Share Scheme - this appears to be no nearer from what I can tell?
2. "Further investment to help the club reach their goal of winning trophies on a regular basis" - £100m or so net spend last summer. The squad needs another £200m+ on it this summer to be anything near that goal. I'd be astonished if we spent anything near that.
3. Commitment to major investment in the stadium/facilities - another year and no closer to this. Yeah, stories pop up now and then (often when they need a distraction), but there's no meaningful progress on this as far as I can tell; they've painted a few facias and girders.
4. Commitment to ongoing engagement with fans - 1 meeting and 1 letter doesn't count as 'ongoing engagement' for me all things considered (mostly the 16 years of silence followed by the ESL fiasco)

The problems start at the top.

 

[croadyman]

We're fast approaching 12 months since Joel's 'promises'...

1. Fan Share Scheme - this appears to be no nearer from what I can tell?
2. "Further investment to help the club reach their goal of winning trophies on a regular basis" - £100m or so net spend last summer. The squad needs another £200m+ on it this summer to be anything near that goal. I'd be astonished if we spent anything near that.
3. Commitment to major investment in the stadium/facilities - another year and no closer to this. Yeah, stories pop up now and then (often when they need a distraction), but there's no meaningful progress on this as far as I can tell; they've painted a few facias and girders.
4. Commitment to ongoing engagement with fans - 1 meeting and 1 letter doesn't count as 'ongoing engagement' for me all things considered (mostly the 16 years of silence followed by the ESL fiasco)

The problems start at the top.

He was talking BS and those gullible clowns from MUST bought this crap

 

[Samid]

OUT

 

[edgecutter]

If ever there was a time to stop games being played now is the time and really turn the screw on these leeches.

 

[Matthew84!]

Someone start getting the banners out and get them to sell

 

[Escobar]

So, nothing changed? Who would have thought

 

[downunder red]

Parasitic owners wouldn:t even know the score

 

[Tarrou]

as much as I hate the Glazers and want rid..

we've appointed a DoF, got rid of Woody, and there seems to be a willingness to let football people make the football decisions finally

heck, we even seem to have managed a sensible managerial appointment

I'm actually more optimistic for our future than I have been in a number of years.. maybe since Fergie left

Anyone else or just me?

 

[Samid]

OUT

 

[Cassidy]

as much as I hate the Glazers and want rid..

we've appointed a DoF, got rid of Woody, and there seems to be a willingness to let football people make the football decisions finally

heck, we even seem to have managed a sensible managerial appointment

I'm actually more optimistic for our future than I have been in a number of years.. maybe since Fergie left

Anyone else or just me?

No. They are scrambling now only because they have to. They will still do the minimum.
Stadium, fan ownership, club debt, dividends etc etc. they need to go

 

[gica_7]

To think that Woodward stayed a couple of months after Ole's dismissal as if he is someone who is competent enough to make these kind of decisions is incredible. In his resignation, the man wrote his proud moments in his tenure. The audacity of doing that shows how delusional of a man he is.

Say whatever you want about the managers or the players. All of them might be right. But, as long as everything from the top stays still, it may still be the same.

 

[downunder red]

"Hello Joel, just ringing to tell you we lost to Liverpool 4/0 and where humiliated".
"Not to worry, we are announcing the new manager tomorrow. That will keep the fans happy for a while. By the way have you got our money ready for our dividends?"

 

[Shunty]

I can see this getting messy now. We’ve gone past angry the fans are furious.

 

[blythy]

"Hello Joel, just ringing to tell you we lost to Liverpool 4/0 and where humiliated".
"Not to worry, we are announcing the new manager tomorrow. That will keep the fans happy for a while. By the way have you got our money ready for our dividends?"

100% what will happen.

 

[Dansk]

as much as I hate the Glazers and want rid..

we've appointed a DoF, got rid of Woody, and there seems to be a willingness to let football people make the football decisions finally

heck, we even seem to have managed a sensible managerial appointment

I'm actually more optimistic for our future than I have been in a number of years.. maybe since Fergie left

Anyone else or just me?

Vaguely optimistic, but things are so dire that it almost seems insurmountable. This feels like it could take a decade to repair. We need to replace almost the entire squad, probably much of the coaching staff as well, and hell, why not, we also need a new fecking stadium. One can frankly say that no aspect of MUFC is currently in an acceptable state. Absolutely everything has to be overhauled and changed, from the ownership down to the physical facilities of the club. There's been a couple of steps in the right direction lately (possibly; we've yet to actually see if it will in fact help), but a couple of steps isn't much when the journey is miles long. The club is utterly dysfunctional on literally every level and I worry that ETH will drown in this muck.

 

[Tarrou]

No. They are scrambling now only because they have to. They will still do the minimum.
Stadium, fan ownership, club debt, dividends etc etc. they need to go

I wasn't referring to my thoughts on the Glazers or whether they need to go or not

but rather, my optimism about our chances of success with the new structure

 

[Cassidy]

I wasn't referring to my thoughts on the Glazers or whether they need to go or not

but rather, my optimism about our chances of success with the new structure

We are yet to really have people qualified enough, with enough experience hired into this “new structure”

 

[Tarrou]

We are yet to really have people qualified enough, with enough experience hired into this “new structure”

thats the spirit mate!

 

[ooeat0meoo]

Nothing short of a massive uprising to get the Glazers Out will solve this problem.

 

[Gatecrasher27]

The Glaizers have done nothing, except sit back, drain the club and laugh at the fans. More interested in selling shirts and other tat than fix the club.

The DOF appointment was a joke, McTurtle and Fletcher are clueless. If they were serious they would of got in someone of Edwin's ilk.

Chief executive is another money man.

Team is full of mercenaries with little to no interest in anything other than not even doing the bare minimum and collecting a wage.

They all need to go.

Where a root and branch approach should of been taken years ago what we will get is more mass social media posts of " we go again" - we definitely won't " players saying sorry" - they aren't and don't forget the long sleave tops are now back in stock....rotten commercial vehicle- no longer a Football team

 

[Cassidy]

thats the spirit mate!

Only stating the obvious. We said we had a brand new strcture when we gave Ole the job permanently and started talking about scouting 808 RBs. This club does alot of PR.
We will see what happens going forward and if we hire Paul Mitchell (which Rangnick has suggested or not)

 

[Tarrou]

Only stating the obvious. We said we had a brand new strcture when we gave Ole the job permanently and started talking about scouting 808 RBs. This club does alot of PR.
We will see what happens going forward and if we hire Paul Mitchell (which Rangnick has suggested or not)

the structure didn’t change at all under Ole?

 

[Cassidy]

the structure didn’t change at all under Ole?

Of course it did. Did it change in the way it should have?
Did we hire a DOF like we said we would?
Did we use our extensive scouting network that we said we had been building or did just let Ole use his own personal scout and waste vast sums of money like Jose did?

Superficial change and promotions from within are not going to provide what we need which is significant change. Its going to take outside points of view to move us forward

 

[UnitedSofa]

The Glaizers have done nothing, except sit back, drain the club and laugh at the fans. More interested in selling shirts and other tat than fix the club.

The DOF appointment was a joke, McTurtle and Fletcher are clueless. If they were serious they would of got in someone of Edwin's ilk.

Chief executive is another money man.

Team is full of mercenaries with little to no interest in anything other than not even doing the bare minimum and collecting a wage.

They all need to go.

Where a root and branch approach should of been taken years ago what we will get is more mass social media posts of " we go again" - we definitely won't " players saying sorry" - they aren't and don't forget the long sleave tops are now back in stock....rotten commercial vehicle- no longer a Football team

This whole post is just wrong on multiple levels.

1) DOF is a fantastic appointment both Fletcher and Murtough are perfect appointments.

MurTough has been around football long enough to know what he's doing, has been instrumental in getting Rangnick in and Ten Hag in. Both things are getting the club in the right direction. I'll keep sharing it because it's perfect and it says a lot more about the man that I can, @Adnan's posts on Fletcher and MurTough outline why they are perfect for the club. We complain that no one really 'gets' the club. We get Fletcher who has been a great servant to the club to help bridge the gap between the youth team and the first team and find out if the youth players have the right mentality to play for MUFC and any future singings for that matter too.

Also for the 100th time, Edwin Van Der Sar is Ajax's CEO who's main job is to focus on the COMMERCIAL side of things, he is Ajax's Woodward! Overmars dealt with the football side!

Why Murtough is a good appointment:

Fletcher's not doing the role to assist Murtough in keeping the wheel moving when it comes to keeping the data, scouting, youth and other departments at a optimum level, so having someone experienced to assist Murtough who understands the process would be a welcome help. Fletcher's role in helping parents make a decision to have their child join the club and coaching at youth and now first team level is normal. Rangnick wants him at first team level and the new head coach will probably have his own people. Jason Wilcox who is currently the academy director at City (ex Blackburn) joined them in 2013 straight from a role working in the media.

Murtough has the experience in turning the wheel, because he's the one who has created the departments, which has modernised the club from having one full-time scout and a non existent data analytics department and everything being stored in Jim Lawlor's head. I can provide the references for that as well. So now Murtough has to juggle the first team with everything else he's been doing after the sacking of Solskjaer, from the Women's teams to the youth teams, coaching at youth level, logistics, scouting departments etc. And contrary to what's been written on this forum by certain deluded posters, Murtough was brought to the club by David Moyes who did understand how a recruitment structure worked in the modern game. Moyes also brought scouts to add to the one full time scout we had at United from Fergie's days, but after he (Moyes) was sacked, Man City wasted no time in poaching some of those scouts and James Smith who was a technical Chief scout and brought to United by Moyes was snapped up by City. And they (City) could do this to us along with enticing several of our youth players to jump ship to their club, because we didn't have the mechanisms and processes in place, which meant we couldn't provide the tools for recruitment staff to do their job at a optimal level and provide the facilities for the youngsters. City were taking advantage of this, Murtough came in to provide the tools and revamp the youth academy to stop this. And he's done a good job where if you just look at the youth teams, then we have interesting prospects in every single position, from the GK Vitek, fullbacks Fernandez, Laird, Williams, Pye, midfielders, Hannibal, Mainoo, Hansen Aaroen, wide forwards, Elanga, Garnacho, Chong and centre forwards McNeill, Hugill and many more that I haven't even mentioned. He's also turned the tables on City where we've poached 4 or 5 of their scouts, including head of youth recruitment David Harrison and their lead youth scout Stephen Ajewole, who was regarded as the best in class along with David Harrison's team.

And as far as Mitchell is concerned, I haven't seen anything that he's done thus far in his career that would make me sit-up and take notice. Even the list of players he's signed as a scout/head of recruitment have been a mixed bag. There's obviously some good players in the list, but also some really poor signings that were huge flops. And he's been at Monaco as DoF coming up to 2 years soon and I'm not seeing a noticeable improvement in their team. And even their biggest talent, Tchouameni was signed before Mitchell arrived at the club. I'd be happy if Mitchell arrived but I'd also be equally happy if we appointed someone else who has the experience of making sure the departments on the football side are functioning at a optimal level.

Below are links to some of the stuff I've mentioned about City poaching a prominent Scout after Moyes's sacking. How Moyes inherited a out dated recruitment structure with everything stored in Lawlor's head, and a detailed article from 2013, which sheds light on Moyes and his approach to technology/data science, when it came to recruiting players. And that approach went as far back as when he was managing Preston. Moyes wasn't a elite head coach but his knowledge on the modern day recruitment structure was elite, hence he approached John Murtough who was the Head of Elite development at the Premier League to restructure United's out dated recruitment structure. This is why I say to certain posters, 'tell me what the structure is' and they then go on the defensive and accuse me of patronising them.

All a DoF model is, is that it provides a buffer between the board and first team head coach. The head coach gets sacked and it should be the DoF backed by several recruitment departments working under him who provide the stability and continuity. The board can't do this and the first team manager just can't juggle 20-25 departments and also conduct training sessions in preparation for match days. And then if he gets sacked, you're in a position where the board has to make decisions unless you have a up to date recruitment department, which we didn't have until 2018. Everything was left to Fergie in the past and even though he kept winning titles, structurally we had fallen way behind many many clubs.


Moyes and his approach to backing up his scouts with technology data.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...em-that-reveals-david-moyes-mind-8756011.html

City poach James Smith from United after the sacking of Moyes.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...s-United-scout-s-European-talent-spotter.html


Moyes overhauls the recruitment structure after it was discovered everything was stored in Lawlor's head.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...vid-moyes-overhauls-manchester-united-6751601

From the above article: "It is understood that when he arrived at United, his predecessor Sir Alex Ferguson’s system and research wasn’t as detailed and the key information was allegedly in chief scout Jim Lawlor’s head rather than an easily accessible database for the backroom staff".

Why Fletcher is a good appointment:

With all due respect, I'm not fooled by what titles are given to certain people. Because the first thing I did when Fletcher was given the title of Technical Director, was to look up what his role at the club entailed. And it was very clear that his remit at the club was one where he assisted the recruitment/coaching staff at youth level. Similar to Jason Wilcox at City, who joined them in 2013, straight from a media job. Wilcox has now been promoted into a prominent role in their academy. Sebastian Kehl at Dortmund from what I read, spent a year back packing in Australia before he was appointed Technical Director at BvB. And they didn't appoint him because he was the most experienced candidate, but rather because of his association to the club, where they could mould him into one day taking over from Michael Zorc. So for me the title isn't important but what the person's remit is. Jason Wilcox is also a football director in City's youth setup. Anybody who oversees a particular department on the football side of a club, is a director of football.

I've followed Rangnick's career for many years and watched his RB Leipzig team regularly for 3 years. So I have a basic idea on how he developed the football side of the club. And how he (imo) developed the football side was first through having one of the richest owners in the game, in Dietrich Mateschitz, who is worth £20b, and then with that financial backing he brought scouts, video analysts, etc and built up a recruitment structure and set out a blueprint for the recruitment departments to target players for a particular way of playing the game. And that particular way, was to set out to play in a compact high block, with high intensity, fast transitions in a very direct vertical approach, which would also help in creating conditions for controlled chaos (counter pressing) off the ball. So the Leipzig scouts were targeting players with a specific profile who were either first contract players (16/17 year olds) or second contract players (18/22 year olds). And the appointment of a head coach would fit into the above way of thinking. He did similar at Hoffenheim under their billionaire owner Dietmar Hopp. And without the financial backing of the sugar daddy owners, he wouldn't have been able to do what he did at either club.

You also talk about Rangnick wanting control at other clubs hence him leaving etc. I agree, for any 'head of football' to be successful he needs control. You can't be successful as a DoF if the first team manager/head coach is setting the football directive independently from a club's recruitment team whilst being allowed his own personal scout(s). That's what United's biggest issue has been since Fergie retired, because even though the structure was outdated under Fergie, Fergie had the structure on the football side of the club working for him. Which created two of the 3 conditions to succeed in a manager model type setup, which are alignment - (streamlining operations) and stability - (as long as the manager is in his job). But what that setup doesn't give a club is continuity and hence when Fergie retired and his scouts also went with him, which included his brother and his coaching staff, we were left with Derek Langley as the head of recruitment and Jim Lawlor as the only fulltime scout with everything stored in his head.

What we need is the board to give the recruitment department the control, which has never happened until possibly now, that Solskjaer has been sacked. If Rangnick is on board then fantastic. But if he isn't, then it's no big deal imo. Because for me it's about streamlining everything and working towards a common goal. And that goal I'm hoping will be to recruit for a particular way of playing the game. And that will then reflect in who is hired as the head coach and the type of profile we target via the transfer window. It's a simple approach to recruitment that I've spoken about on here for years. Why do we need Rangnick to tell us that we need to streamline football operations, which have not been streamlined since the days of Fergie.

The DoFs take all the credit at clubs, but the bulk of the work is done by the scouts on he ground who then feed into their respective head of departments, who then collate the information passed on before feeding the filtered information to the DoF. No DoF can be successful if the departments below him/her are not functioning to a optimal level.

2) Chief Executives are money men, all things considered. That's literally his fecking job. Richard Arnold is also leaving the football side of things to Murtough/Fletcher and letting them deal with all football matters. Hence why they're getting a deputy DOF to help Murtough do his job, because he can't do it all by himself.


We've been in a bad way for a very long time, but this new structure has barely had any time to settle in and point the ship in the right direction. The signs are there, DOF, CEO leaving football matters to football men. Rangnick and now Ten Hag coming in. Things are looking rosey, all be it very small rosey, but it's getting there, give them the time to correct things and point the ship where it needs to go. The signs are there, it's taken them almost 2 decades but better late than never I guess.

 

[UnitedSofa]

the structure didn’t change at all under Ole?

Yes it did. DOF came in.

 

[Tarrou]

Of course it did. Did it change in the way it should have?
Did we hire a DOF like we said we would?
Did we use our extensive scouting network that we said we had been building or did just let Ole use his own personal scout and waste vast sums of money like Jose did?

Superficial change and promotions from within are not going to provide what we need which is significant change. Its going to take outside points of view to move us forward

We changed the CEO, appointed a DoF and technical director. Rangnick as advisor, and bringing ETH and likely his back-room staff too.

What did we change under Ole? feckall!!

 

[Tarrou]

Yes it did. DOF came in.

Yeah fair enough. But he hardly had any time in the role before Ole was booted out, so we hadn't had any time to see the impact.

Since then we have. The DoF has overseen the appointment of Ralf, decision to make him and advisor, and the interview and likely appointment of ETH. Lots of decisions that point towards the new structure making football decisions and not the CEO like before.

 

[Cassidy]

We changed the CEO, appointed a DoF and technical director. Rangnick as advisor, and bringing ETH and likely his back-room staff too.

What did we change under Ole? feckall!!

Pretty sure the DoF was hired whist Ole was here and has no experience building a successful club at any level. Time will tell if this was the right move.
The new CEO was deputy during to Woodward during the worst years of the club for years.
On Rangnick, we are yet to know what his role will be and if they will listen to him.
Jose was a new manager with back room staff, so was Ole.

Like I said and as Rangnick has said also alot more needs to change. What did Rangnick say about out new Technical Director….

The only outside point of view we brought in has been Rangnick and so far we have no even used him in his most experienced role. We have also briefed he was not part of the manager hiring process.

I will reserve judgement until I see the club make the neccesary changes and not just the bare minimum and PR

Judging by the new contracts were planning to hand out next (Shaw and Rashford) signs are not that good. Bruno up to 290k after 18 months of poor form…

 

[UnitedSofa]

Pretty sure the DoF was hired whist Ole was here and has no experience building a successful club at any level. Time will tell if this was the right move.
The new CEO was deputy during to Woodward during the worst years of the club for years.
On Rangnick, we are yet to know what his role will be and if they will listen to him.
Jose was a new manager with back room staff, so was Ole.

Like I said and as Rangnick has said also alot more needs to change. What did Rangnick say about out new Technical Director….

The only outside point of view we brought in has been Rangnick and so far we have no even used him in his most experienced role. We have also briefed he was not part of the manager hiring process.

I will reserve judgement until I see the club make theneccesary changes and not just the bare minimum and PR

See my post above as to why the DOF/Fletcher are the right calls.

New CEO has left ALL football matters to DOF/Fletcher and getting Rangnick/Ten Hag in are the right calls and what the fans have been calling for for years. But apparently now that's not good enough.

The club has stooped so low that they will never win even putting thing in the right direction is wrong. Jheeze.

Rangnick was never meant to be a part of the new manager process. He was supposed to advise the club after his position as interim had ended. If that had occurred you'd complain that the club is taking too long to hire a new manager and it should have been done before the season ended. Rangnick (as interim) can't advise the club on a new manager and sort out the shower of shite we have already, that's a 24/7 job in itself!

 

[Gordon Godot]

Pretty sure the DoF was hired whist Ole was here and has no experience building a successful club at any level. Time will tell if this was the right move.
The new CEO was deputy during to Woodward during the worst years of the club for years.
On Rangnick, we are yet to know what his role will be and if they will listen to him.
Jose was a new manager with back room staff, so was Ole.

Like I said and as Rangnick has said also alot more needs to change. What did Rangnick say about out new Technical Director….

The only outside point of view we brought in has been Rangnick and so far we have no even used him in his most experienced role. We have also briefed he was not part of the manager hiring process.

I will reserve judgement until I see the club make the neccesary changes and not just the bare minimum and PR

Judging by the new contracts were planning to hand out next (Shaw and Rashford) signs are not that good. Bruno up to 290k after 18 months of poor form…

We appointed the least qualified technical director in the premier league with Darren Flethcer. Dont think he even has a coaching badge. Same old sh*t from the Glazers. Bring in experienced pros, the best in their field. Compared to players these people are cheap.

 

[Gordon Godot]

See my post above as to why the DOF/Fletcher are the right calls.

New CEO has left ALL football matters to DOF/Fletcher and getting Rangnick/Ten Hag in are the right calls and what the fans have been calling for for years. But apparently now that's not good enough.

The club has stooped so low that they will never win even putting thing in the right direction is wrong. Jheeze.

Rangnick was never meant to be a part of the new manager process. He was supposed to advise the club after his position as interim had ended. If that had occurred you'd complain that the club is taking too long to hire a new manager and it should have been done before the season ended. Rangnick (as interim) can't advise the club on a new manager and sort out the shower of shite we have already, that's a 24/7 job in itself!

So you are happy that all football matters are left to Darren Fletcher. Really? Remind me onece again what his qualifications are for this fundamental role at one of the biggest football clubs in the world?

 

[Green Arrow]

So you are happy that all football matters are left to Darren Fletcher. Really? Remind me onece again what his qualifications are for this fundamental role at one of the biggest football clubs in the world?

He doesn't have any he was I think taking his coaching badges and somehow ended up in this new position. He's going to be learning on the job.