'Pep' Guardiola sack watch

[MUW4Eva]

His teams consistently reach advanced stages in CL. That proves his tactics do work in Europe. Unless your definition of "working tactics" is him having to win the competition consistently, which is just a narrow sighted vision which seems to be commonly only applied on Pep because God knows why.

No, not win the competition consistently although Zidane managed to do just that without spending heavily, but at least reach more than one final since having prime Messi.
Win at least one trophy without Messi, that would prove that he knows what he is doing in Europe.

But despite spending over what 2 billion pounds on players, having a literal £100 million player on the bench, he is simply incapable of winning the trophy without Messi even once.

His tactics have been proven year after year after year, that without Messi, in Europe they simply do not work.
Time has definitely passed him by.

 

[padr81]

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Seems like they're starting a rebuild. Honestly their squad needed it. I think it's a pretty damn overrated one. People treat it as if they have top class players in every place but the reality is their forward line has been Jesus, Mahrez and Phoden while their backline consist of mostly average to decent players.

Liverpool have actually better players than them at this moment. Salah and Mane are just better than their entire forward line and same thing can be said about VVD, Robertson and Arnold.

City squad was great few years ago but it has run its course. They're probably going to spend 200m or something this summer.

The refresh is more to do with old and unhappy players. Laporte, Sterling and Bernardo all wanted to leave. Jesus too. Plus Walker getting up I years and Fernandinho.

I think Bernardo will stay so likely summer changes are Alvarez and Haaland in Jesus out. Fernandinho out and a dm in.

Than the following season Walker, Mahrez and Sterling out with Palmer taking Mahrez place and maybe laporte out CB in.

So next season 2 attackers and a dm, season aftera RB, attacker and maybe a CB.

By then we'll be likely at the end of Pep, KDB and Gundogan and I expect big changes maybe a season of struggling.

 

[MUW4Eva]

No one expects him to win the CL consistently.

But he took over a Bayern team that had reached 3 of the last 4 CL finals while still having a core that wasn't aging (and that won the WC 2014) before he arrived and didn't get into a single final.
And he assembled the most expensive team and only made it to one lost final with City.

That's just below expectations, I think he should have gotten into 3-4 finals and have won 1-2 in the last decade with these resources.

Exactly, he has performed waaayyyy below what should be expected of him, he is nothing but a huge failure as a manager in Europe without Messi.

Reaching one final is laughable in more than one sense, and just proves that he doesn't know what he is doing in Europe.

 

[MUW4Eva]

The refresh is more to do with old and unhappy players. Laporte, Sterling and Bernardo all wanted to leave. Jesus too. Plus Walker getting up I years and Fernandinho.

I think Bernardo will stay so likely summer changes are Alvarez and Haaland in Jesus out. Fernandinho out and a dm in.

Than the following season Walker, Mahrez and Sterling out with Palmer taking Mahrez place and maybe laporte out CB in.

So next season 2 attackers and a dm, season aftera RB, attacker and maybe a CB.

By then we'll be likely at the end of Pep, KDB and Gundogan and I expect big changes maybe a season of struggling.

The issue presumably will be, who will buy these players that want out, as they will be on huge wages, so who will be able to either match what they are already on, nevermind offer them a pay rise??

 

[the_cliff]

I think the key to UCL wins is more mentality when getting to the latter stages. Madrid have players that have been there and done it. City players seemed to be shitting themselves from the kick off.

There was a pic of Benzema and Casemiro just before half time having a laugh at a joke while down in a champions league semi final.

Pep at Bayern I feel he was more unlucky with the fact that he was coming up against probably 2 of the top 5 teams in club football history (MSN Barca and Zidane's Madrid), similar to how we were unfortunate to come up against Peps Barca. At City though he has no excuses he should've really won it last year and probably should've won it this year too.

 

[Roane]

It's absolutely not a new issue for Pep, and I don't even think it is a tactical problem, but something that was a problem for his whole time working as a manager.

His teams are designed to 100% control the match and dominate everything. He does this to an exceptional level and therefore his teams can pull it off in almost all games. Almost.

But for some reason they appear to be very weak when things happen to them that can't really be explained. It seems to make them nervous and they lack the edge, the steel, the mentality, whatever you want to call it, to just ignore this and keep on dominating. I'm absolutely not sure why this is, but it is obvious for several seasons at City and was a point for criticism while he managed Bayern, too.

Stay with me on this one.

Is it actually a case of Pep being the problem for the players weakness?

Now this bit may sound laughable but stay with me. LVG had a mantra that the players were not able to change the play on the pitch. He wanted players that could see what was happening then act accordingly. Pep seems to be the guy who wants everything to be how he sees it. Down to a T. Iirc it was him subbing Henry for scoring because he hasn't done it the way Pep wanted it done.

This mentality of wanting things a certain way down to the last detail won't be helping the players. As witnessed with City falling apart they seemed to run out of ideas. Not so much on what they had to do, I mean the Grealish chances alone showed that they were sticking to their game plan. Yet the game plan should have been one of "we are ahead and one foot in the final let's close up shop". Yet they continued to do what they do. Play the football they play. Well drilled and pretty but no thinking for themselves. No take the ball into the corner flag and waste a bit of time. No simple passes amongst themselves and back to the keeper etc.

Not sure if Peps subs were made to do this either, as in kill the game. He has multiple players that he can bring on but they come on and do the same as the guy they replaced. Over a season this is brilliant as you have replacements to stick to a game plan. But surely you need the addition of players to do the opposite too?

Now I'm no great football tactician but with a 2 goal lead and a few minutes to go surely a lone striker would have been a good option. RM needed the goals and were throwing men forward. So get everyone behind the ball and a lone striker to hit them on the counter. He scores brilliant, he doesn't you have RM having to keep on eye on him in essence tying up a defender. But you also have a wall for RM to try and break. For me this was especially relevant as there was so little time left.

 

[el3mel]

No one expects him to win the CL consistently.

But he took over a Bayern team that had reached 3 of the last 4 CL finals while still having a core that wasn't aging (and that won the WC 2014) before he arrived and didn't get into a single final.
And he assembled the most expensive team and only made it to one lost final with City.

That's just below expectations, I think he should have gotten into 3-4 finals and have won 1-2 in the last decade with these resources.

This is Champions League, not Fa Cup.

 

[el3mel]

No, not win the competition consistently although Zidane managed to do just that without spending heavily, but at least reach more than one final since having prime Messi.
Win at least one trophy without Messi, that would prove that he knows what he is doing in Europe.

But despite spending over what 2 billion pounds on players, having a literal £100 million player on the bench, he is simply incapable of winning the trophy without Messi even once.

His tactics have been proven year after year after year, that without Messi, in Europe they simply do not work.
Time has definitely passed him by.

This Zidane comparison is so tiresome. You realize you say Pep is outdated because he couldn't win CL without Messi, yet you bring Zidane as an example who only won it with Real Madrid and in presence of Cristiano Ronaldo, and hadn't tested himself with any other club without Ronaldo yet, while, ironically, you are blaming Pep for not winning it outside Barca ?

 

[Sandikan]

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Seems like they're starting a rebuild. Honestly their squad needed it. I think it's a pretty damn overrated one. People treat it as if they have top class players in every place but the reality is their forward line has been Jesus, Mahrez and Foden while their backline consist of mostly average to decent players.

Liverpool have actually better players than them at this moment. Salah and Mane are just better than their entire forward line and same thing can be said about VVD, Robertson and Arnold.

City squad was great few years ago but it has run its course. They're probably going to spend 200m or something this summer.

What?
Keeper, Walker, Cancelo, Dias/Laporte, with Stones as back up feels a pretty strong backline to me.

 

[el3mel]

What?
Keeper, Walker, Cancelo, Dias/Laporte, with Stones as back up feels a pretty strong backline to me.

No it's not. Walker is aging, Ederson is a decent keeper but hardly world class, Stones and Laporte are very inconsistent.

Only Dias and Cancelo I'll consider as top players.

 

[padr81]

The issue presumably will be, who will buy these players that want out, as they will be on huge wages, so who will be able to either match what they are already on, nevermind offer them a pay rise??

They want out, Laporte will end up at Barca had I to guess and Sterling is a free agent so wages won't matter. Fernandinho's contract is up this summer. Walkers is up end of 2024, Mahrez 2023 and Jesus isn't on big money he could go elsewhere and get a pay rise and first team football (rumored to be already set for Arsenal).

We'll have no problem moving them on. City don't tie players into hugely long contracts, it means easier to get rid of them but you'll inevitably lose one or two (like Raheem on a free or having to sell Sane for what we paid for him etc...)
Getting rid of players won't be an issue, bringing in players of the same peak quality/potential will be.

IF and I say if the Haaland deal is as done as everyone believes we've already got Alvarez, Haaland and Palmer to replace Jesus, Sterling and Mahrez. We've also got Yan Couto in the wings to replace Walker (if Couto is happy to stay, he's not a big fan of Pep atm..)

 

[Sandikan]

No it's not. Walker is aging, Ederson is a decent keeper but hardly world class, Stones and Laporte are very inconsistent.

Only Dias and Cancelo I'll consider as top players.

Walker is huge to their way of playing, absolutely nullifies any chance of catching them for pace at the back.

Laporte & Dias is probably the best combo in the league.
And most would have Ederson up there almost anyone in the league.

You're getting me defending City!

I'm trying to re-assure myself here that they will hold Liverpool off!

 

[Sandikan]

The issue presumably will be, who will buy these players that want out, as they will be on huge wages, so who will be able to either match what they are already on, nevermind offer them a pay rise??

I know just the team.

Manchester, Manchester United dodododo

 

[el3mel]

Walker is huge to their way of playing, absolutely nullifies any chance of catching them for pace at the back.

Laporte & Dias is probably the best combo in the league.
And most would have Ederson up there almost anyone in the league.

You're getting me defending City!

I'm trying to re-assure myself here that they will hold Liverpool off!

I'm not saying Walker is bad. I'm saying he's aging. He's 31. They're going to look for a replacement for him within the next 2-3 years max.

Dias is top player indeed, but Laporte isn't really that consistent in his performance imo.

Alisson and Mendy are better than Ederson.

 

[stefan92]

This is Champions League, not Fa Cup.

So what? Liverpool just reached their third final in five years, Real won three in a row, the best teams are able to reach multiple finals in a few years, but City isn't despite having the most financial ressources available and are dominating in the PL.

It is absolutely a valid question why Pep’s teams aren't on the absolute top level like Real or Liverpool.

 

[padr81]

Walker is huge to their way of playing, absolutely nullifies any chance of catching them for pace at the back.

Laporte & Dias is probably the best combo in the league.
And most would have Ederson up there almost anyone in the league.

You're getting me defending City!

I'm trying to re-assure myself here that they will hold Liverpool off!

I agree on the first point, but I think Matip and VVD are above Laporte and Dias (though its tight). I think mostly Laporte has a terrible game in him every so often.

Ederson is a great keeper for City (Pep) but just a good actual goalkeeper, under most other managers, I 'd have Ali, DDG, Lloris and maybe Mendy ahead of him. He's just the perfect keeper for City.
I'd say when Pep goes he'll be in a weird spot now ETH is not available.

Hopefully the Madrid result gets the team to knuckle down for the last 4 games and both of our worries will be for nothing cause I see Liverpool stomping Real in Paris.

 

[el3mel]

So what? Liverpool just reached their third final in five years, Real won three in a row, the best teams are able to reach multiple finals in a few years, but City isn't despite having the most financial ressources available and are dominating in the PL.

It is absolutely a valid question why Pep’s teams aren't on the absolute top level like Real or Liverpool.

I'm pretty sure City would have reached the final this year too if they had played against Inter, Benfica and Villareal that Liverpool played, and Real winning 3 in a row is literally a one time event in CL history.

But regardless, City was already in the final last year and they were few minutes away from the final this year, so ? They're already reaching advanced stages in CL.

CL isn't just about having the best team in the competition. The luck in the draw and ties plays a huge part in progressing in it.

 

[Longball]

I suspect Pep not winning in Europe has something to do with him not having enough of a connection with his players.

Its not a flaw, it's just who he is Nothing to do with his management skills, he's obviously very intelligent. I just don't see his players seeing him as anything more than a boss and going the extra mile for him. Contrast it with someone like Ancelotti, Klopp and at a time, Jose.

Anything you see on the pitch has been drilled directly into them in a very mechanical way. All tickboxes to be checked for Pep, and probably arranged very comprehensively.

There might be outliers of course like DeBruyne or Fernandinho who are probably in Pep's 'inner circle', but by and large it's mostly a transactional relationship with everyone else.

What strikes me most was during the Madrid game after letting in 2 goals in the final minute, the back 4 just reacted with a slight droop in the head, maybe a small dejection. The lack of emotion was... weird. It's almost like they didn't care - "oops, oh sh!t".

Also interesting was when City scored the first goal, I think it was Rodri who was obviously overjoyed, ran over to hug Pep who then tugged his elbows into his ribs to sort of create a barrier between him and player. I mean surely you can manage something more sincere, surely City pays you enough to dry clean the sweat off your suit? A little bizarre, or maybe I'm looking too much into things.

Again, nothing on him as a manager and I honestly think he thinks about the game more than anyone else in the industry.

 

[MUW4Eva]

Walker is huge to their way of playing, absolutely nullifies any chance of catching them for pace at the back.

Laporte & Dias is probably the best combo in the league.
And most would have Ederson up there almost anyone in the league.

You're getting me defending City!

I'm trying to re-assure myself here that they will hold Liverpool off!

Ederson isn't a good goalkeeper, he is average at best

I agree on the first point, but I think Matip and VVD are above Laporte and Dias (though its tight). I think mostly Laporte has a terrible game in him every so often.

Ederson is a great keeper for City (Pep) but just a good actual goalkeeper, under most other managers, I 'd have Ali, DDG, Lloris and maybe Mendy ahead of him. He's just the perfect keeper for City.
I'd say when Pep goes he'll be in a weird spot now ETH is not available.

Hopefully the Madrid result gets the team to knuckle down for the last 4 games and both of our worries will be for nothing cause I see Liverpool stomping Real in Paris.

You think anyone is stopping King Benzema from lifting the trophy??
He is bang in form, he is nigh on impossible to stop right now.

Real Madrid will win the final, they just have unstoppable momentim.

 

[MUW4Eva]

I'm pretty sure City would have reached the final this year too if they had played against Inter, Benfica and Villareal that Liverpool played, and Real winning 3 in a row is literally a one time event in CL history.

But regardless, City was already in the final last year and they were few minutes away from the final this year, so ? They're already reaching advanced stages in CL.

CL isn't just about having the best team in the competition. The luck in the draw and ties plays a huge part in progressing in it.

With the financial benefits that City have over every other club, they should be doing far, far, far, far better in Europe then they have under Pep.
He has failed year after year after year.
Reaching one final, and getting beat in it, is a truly pitiful story of his time in charge.

 

[Redfrog]

What's the new tactic Pep doesn't know about?

Ten Hag’s tactics.

 

[erikcred]

I'm pretty sure City would have reached the final this year too if they had played against Inter, Benfica and Villareal

City have gone out to Monaco, Lyon and Spurs under Guardiola. So even with an easier draw there are no guarantees with City.

 

[el3mel]

With the financial benefits that City have over every other club, they should be doing far, far, far, far better in Europe then they have under Pep.
He has failed year after year after year.
Reaching one final, and getting beat in it, is a truly pitiful story of his time in charge.

Why did you dodge my reply on the Zidane comparison? Reply to it first.

 

[padr81]

I'm pretty sure City would have reached the final this year too if they had played against Inter, Benfica and Villareal that Liverpool played, and Real winning 3 in a row is literally a one time event in CL history.

But regardless, City was already in the final last year and they were few minutes away from the final this year, so ? They're already reaching advanced stages in CL.

CL isn't just about having the best team in the competition. The luck in the draw and ties plays a huge part in progressing in it.

100%, the narrative about Pep as a manager is a disgrace but expected from the jealous ones.

Pep's record in the CL
Win
SF (Joses Inter)
Win
SF (Chelsea)
SF (Real Madrid)
SF (Barcelona)
SF (Atletico)
L16 (Monaco Away Goals)
QF (Liverpool)
QF (Spurs Away Goals)
QF (Lyon)
RU - (Chelsea)
SF - (Real Madrid)

He's competed in the Champions League 13 times,
2 Wins
3 Finals
6 Semi Finals

Only the back to back seasons vs Spurs and Lyon at City are blemishes imho and the Spurs one was incredibly unlucky even according to the CAF at the time.

 

[padr81]

Ederson isn't a good goalkeeper, he is average at best

You think anyone is stopping King Benzema from lifting the trophy??
He is bang in form, he is nigh on impossible to stop right now.

Real Madrid will win the final, they just have unstoppable momentim.

Game will be over at half time. Liverpool will trounce them. The amount of chances they gave up to City and Chelsea, Liverpool are ruthless. King Benzema might get a goal but Liverpool will get 3 or 4.

 

[MUW4Eva]

This Zidane comparison is so tiresome. You realize you say Pep is outdated because he couldn't win CL without Messi, yet you bring Zidane as an example who only won it with Real Madrid and in presence of Cristiano Ronaldo, and hadn't tested himself with any other club without Ronaldo yet, while, ironically, you are blaming Pep for not winning it outside Barca ?

It was an example nothing more than that of a manager not spending the GDP of the USA to win the trophy on multiple occasions.

Pep has spent more than most countries make in a year, yet has diddly squat to show for it as City's manager.

He is simply a huge failure in Europe for them, and has achieved nothing of any note whatsoever on a European level with them.

 

[MUW4Eva]

100%, the narrative about Pep as a manager is a disgrace but expected from the jealous ones.

Pep's record in the CL
Win
SF (Joses Inter)
Win
SF (Chelsea)
SF (Real Madrid)
SF (Barcelona)
SF (Atletico)
L16 (Monaco Away Goals)
QF (Liverpool)
QF (Spurs Away Goals)
QF (Lyon)
RU - (Chelsea)
SF - (Real Madrid)

He's competed in the Champions League 13 times,
2 Wins
3 Finals
6 Semi Finals

Only the back to back seasons vs Spurs and Lyon at City are blemishes imho and the Spurs one was incredibly unlucky even according to the CAF at the time.

How much money has he spent to not win it with City, his time at Barcelona can be put to one side for this discussion.

This isn't jealousy or anything like that, just trying to look at the facts.
Each year he spends a tonne of money to not win it, that simply isn't good enough you would like to think, as how much more money does he need, another billion, two billion??

He is the definition of cheque book manager.

 

[MUW4Eva]

Game will be over at half time. Liverpool will trounce them. The amount of chances they gave up to City and Chelsea, Liverpool are ruthless. King Benzema might get a goal but Liverpool will get 3 or 4.

We shall see, but I can't honestly see beyond a Real Madrid win.

 

[stepic]

How much money has he spent to not win it with City, his time at Barcelona can be put to one side for this discussion.

This isn't jealousy or anything like that, just trying to look at the facts.
Each year he spends a tonne of money to not win it, that simply isn't good enough you would like to think, as how much more money does he need, another billion, two billion??

He is the definition of cheque book manager.

he's one of the best managers in the world. he's going to manage rich clubs.

 

[el3mel]

It was an example nothing more than that of a manager not spending the GDP of the USA to win the trophy on multiple occasions.

Pep has spent more than most countries make in a year, yet has diddly squat to show for it as City's manager.

He is simply a huge failure in Europe for them, and has achieved nothing of any note whatsoever on a European level with them.

Maybe Zidane didn't spend because he had a team full of Galacticos already when he got the job. Ramos, Varane, Marcelo, Kroos, Modric, Ronaldo, Benzema, Bale..every singe one of them was the best in the world in his position. You makes it look like Zidane was managing an underdog.

And still, you claimed Pep is a failure because he didn't manage to win it without Messi, meanwhile, Zidane only won it with Ronaldo and didn't test himself in CL with any other team. The 2 times he managed in CL without Ronaldo, guess what, got KOed by Pep's Man City out of all teams in 16th round and next year in the semi by Chelsea.

 

[padr81]

How much money has he spent to not win it with City, his time at Barcelona can be put to one side for this discussion.

This isn't jealousy or anything like that, just trying to look at the facts.
Each year he spends a tonne of money to not win it, that simply isn't good enough you would like to think, as how much more money does he need, another billion, two billion??

He is the definition of cheque book manager.

Not even the biggest spender in England but...
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/fuenfjahresvergleich/wettbewerb/GB1 - Useful reading instead of false narrative.

Also why does his time at Barca get pushed aside? Can we push aside Sir Alex's time at United and judge him? Joses at Inter? Paisley at Liverpool? Just cut off a huge portion of ones career because it doesn't suit our narrative?

 

[Marwood]

So what? Liverpool just reached their third final in five years, Real won three in a row, the best teams are able to reach multiple finals in a few years, but City isn't despite having the most financial ressources available and are dominating in the PL.

It is absolutely a valid question why Pep’s teams aren't on the absolute top level like Real or Liverpool.

I know in this age of analysis luck isn't often accepted as a reason but it does play a big part.

I hate to say this as well but they have been short on luck. Where as other clubs, like Madrid, have had plenty.

 

[Tavern in the town]

I know in this age of analysis luck isn't often accepted as a reason but it does play a big part.

I hate to say this as well but they have been short on luck. Where as other clubs, like Madrid, have had plenty.

Can you really attribute 8 collapses in 11 years to luck? Surely at that point it’s got to be considered something more.

 

[Marwood]

The tactics that he used, and deciding to play a half fit Walker are why they are out.
He got it very wrong against Real Madrid, as he has done consistently in Europe ever since he had a prime Messi at his disposal.

Other clubs have managed to win the Champions League without spending a quarter of what he has spent, so it really is on him.

But how was he tactically outdated against Madrid?

If you believe his tactics belong to a previous era then you surely know what's needed to update them?

Also, which managers are using the modern tactics Pep isn't?

 

[Marwood]

Can you really attribute 8 collapses in 11 years to luck? Surely at that point it’s got to be considered something more.

No not all of them of course.

But equally do you also not accept it plays a part?

I mean these last two games against Madrid. Madrid have got fairly lucky there haven't they?

I really want to blame Pep for allcof it because I've always said the praise he gets is too much.

But he's had some comically bad luck in the tournament.

Bit like Mourinho in his first stint with Chelsea.

 

[MUW4Eva]

No not all of them of course.

But equally do you also not accept it plays a part?

I mean these last two games against Madrid. Madrid have got fairly lucky there haven't they?

How have Madrid got lucky??

They played better when it matters most in the tie.
City coasting, thinking they were already in the final, that isn't Real Madrid's fault is it?

Real just played to the final whistle, City did not.

 

[Sweet Square]

Called it over a year ago.Its time to go!

 

[Marwood]

How have Madrid got lucky??

They played better when it matters most in the tie.
City coasting, thinking they were already in the final, that isn't Real Madrid's fault is it?

Real just played to the final whistle, City did not.

They lost both "90 min" games and still went through.

Got a pen in both games.

Rodrygo scoring 2 in 2 mins, in a way he'll likey never do again.

How many times could Madrid replay those two games in the same way and go through?

 

[tomaldinho1]

This is Champions League, not Fa Cup.

Liverpool destroy your point to be honest. Name more than one team who you think are ‘better’ than City?

CL has always been a competition where you see consistency in the great teams. Juve got to 3 finals in row early 90s, United got to 3 of 4, Bayern then got to 3/4, then Madrid got to 4/5, Pool now 3/5 and you then look at the league and see it’s not like Pool are another level above City or have spent more…there’s something not quite working out as it should AND that’s with favourable CL draws for City!

Speaking of the FA cup, have you looked the draw City got the single time they won it under Pep? There is something about his tactics, management style or the mentality of players he buys that struggles with high pressure KO football when matched against a relatively ‘even’ opponent.

 

[MUW4Eva]

They lost both "90 min" games and still went through.

Got a pen in both games.

Rodrygo scoring 2 in 2 mins, in a way he'll likey never do again.

How many times could Madrid replay those two games in the same way and go through?

How did Real Madrid get beat in both 90 minute games??
What happened in the first leg is only relevant when it comes to looking at the overall picture.

Winning a first leg means nothing, it is like being up at half time, as that is all it is.

Real Madrid won the tie fair and square, and as such are through to the final.

City not playing to the final whistle, that isn't Real Madrid's fault, so why try and demean them for that??