This would also be the case for trans men having to compete in a non-male category which I am sure many would prefer it this way. I am sure trans people realise they are different so not sure why it would cause distress. Being able to compete in sport is the main thing rather than an outright ban.
Transgender Athletes
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Well I always got the impression from the most ardent commentators on this subject that dysphoria was so intense that any reference to it was dangerous to the MH of that person, hence why affirmation in kids and teenagers is the preferred therapy focus.
I haven't read the science behind the decision but assuming it's airtight and the report gets released for everyone to have a look at then it's by no means an inherently bigoted move - it's a difficult and fraught issue and all anyone can do is try to be as fair as possible in the knowledge that no ruling can be perfectly fair for all.
Regardless, it seems very harsh on the current generation of trans people who have done absolutely nothing wrong but who now find themselves the wrong side of this ruling. Most of the trans people I know wanted to transition a lot earlier than they did, but that option wasn't available to them for a variety of reasons, whether it was a lack of knowledge or support from parents, gatekeeping by bigoted medical professionals perpetuity, a lack of access to support. It feels as though trans athletes are being doubly punished for the failings of others, once because they weren't able to get the medical support they needed earlier, and again because the failure to give them that support when they needed it may now cost them careers they've worked very hard for.
I think, in here at least, that the majority of those who are supportive of this ruling bear no ill-will towards trans women. I'd ask those people to lend their support to campaigns working to ensure young people questioning their gender get the support they need, including access to puberty blockers where appropriate. Because ultimately, unless that support is there, there's little difference between a tough but science-led decision which unfortunately excludes this generation of trans women athletes and a de-facto ban on trans women competing in top-level sport in perpetuity on purely ideological grounds.
Regardless, it seems very harsh on the current generation of trans people who have done absolutely nothing wrong but who now find themselves the wrong side of this ruling. Most of the trans people I know wanted to transition a lot earlier than they did, but that option wasn't available to them for a variety of reasons, whether it was a lack of knowledge or support from parents, gatekeeping by bigoted medical professionals perpetuity, a lack of access to support. It feels as though trans athletes are being doubly punished for the failings of others, once because they weren't able to get the medical support they needed earlier, and again because the failure to give them that support when they needed it may now cost them careers they've worked very hard for.
I think, in here at least, that the majority of those who are supportive of this ruling bear no ill-will towards trans women. I'd ask those people to lend their support to campaigns working to ensure young people questioning their gender get the support they need, including access to puberty blockers where appropriate. Because ultimately, unless that support is there, there's little difference between a tough but science-led decision which unfortunately excludes this generation of trans women athletes and a de-facto ban on trans women competing in top-level sport in perpetuity on purely ideological grounds.
It's tricky because one of the main reasons I love sports, is because it doesn't discriminate. If you're good enough, you will be respected by your peers whether you're black/white/fat/thin it doesn't matter, as long as we all play by the same rules.
The way many MTF athletes dominate in the women's division actually hurt the integrity of the sport and the athletes who dedicate their lives for that sport. They cannot compete against someone who transitioned from male to female. Everybody loses. The winner still loses because people will question their biological advantage and the runners up will be highly discouraged from ever trying to compete again.
That's where life gets unfair and you have to draw a line imo.
The way many MTF athletes dominate in the women's division actually hurt the integrity of the sport and the athletes who dedicate their lives for that sport. They cannot compete against someone who transitioned from male to female. Everybody loses. The winner still loses because people will question their biological advantage and the runners up will be highly discouraged from ever trying to compete again.
That's where life gets unfair and you have to draw a line imo.
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Agree, support is so important
This is obviously a sensitive topic. But I really think we must disassociate the notion that banning transgender people from participating in professional sports in their non-biological gender is not a direct attack on transgender people. It’s difficult because you can say you’re discriminating against them because of it, and curtailing their rights. But I don’t think this decision is actually about them. It’s actually more about those who aren’t transgender. Biologically, transgender have an advantage / disadvantage inherently and as such does not allow for fair participation. Just as when we separate mens and womens competition except in designated mixed sports, it’s not about creating an inferior view of women. It’s about sporting fairness.
There are grey areas. A biological man converting to a woman creates more imbalance than an athlete who biologically is naturally genetically mixed (not the r of it way to describe it but you know what I mean).
I am fully supportive of transgender athletes competing under their “new” gender, if there is a fair and balanced way for that to happen. Would welcome all such viable suggestions. But in the absence of that, I really do not see an alternative to a ban?
There are grey areas. A biological man converting to a woman creates more imbalance than an athlete who biologically is naturally genetically mixed (not the r of it way to describe it but you know what I mean).
I am fully supportive of transgender athletes competing under their “new” gender, if there is a fair and balanced way for that to happen. Would welcome all such viable suggestions. But in the absence of that, I really do not see an alternative to a ban?
I'd assume most people are aware that they're different but the problem also originates from the reluctance to admit they're different. It already has been mentioned it could be due to compassion, being afraid of being labeled as transphobic, or something like that. So I think that has been one of the problems, pretend they're equal in every sense (specially biologically) and transmit that to sports.
Having the sports divided in male and female categories is discriminating but it's that way because of the glaring differences in athletic performance. It can be seen as unfair but no one gets to choose their sex, appearance, race, country they're born, etc. I mean I don't know how else to explain it but it is the way it is. There are also categories for handicapped people in order for them to have their space to compete.
So what I'm trying to say is that everyone is different and people must accept their difference or cope with them the best they can. As of now technology and medicine are not advanced enough to the point were able to biologically turn a man into a woman. That's not happening anytime soon and despite the hormone therapy I don't think trans women should be allowed to compete with women in most sports at the highest level.
Nice to see some common sense in sport being used, i'd personally get rid of the transition before 12, but how many people fit in that category realistically must be minimal.
all for a separate category for trans people, you can't just turn a blind eye to significant biological advantages more so in some sports then others.
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Article with some detail. Don't agree with all of it but an overview in some respects, using McKinnon's photo is harsh. Also the account @fondofbeetles goes into deep detail on athletic difference.
Ha, Jon Pike! I know him weirdly enough. Very strident in his views, let's say.
The coopting of phrases like "scientific research" by people who have no understanding of how to conduct research or respect for results they dont like has always been pretty galling in these debates.
I've played cricket at a decent level when I was younger but have been off the scene for a few years. 2 of my younger brothers play for a local team and due to change in job I had a Saturday free so went to watch them.
This is local league cricket and I was watching the seconds play. I had heard that teams were now "mixed". Although it's not truly mixed as in 50/50 more like teams have one or two female players.
The opposition had two female players and when I went to the ground I saw them and I was quite happy to see it. Once the game started though I felt a bit of sympathy for the girls and also for the lads. It was just uncomfortable. These girls would be decent cricketers in a women's team but were pretty much made to look inferior players and I noticed the fast bowlers kind of slowed down for them too.
The whole scene looked uncomfortable from the banter to the celebrations to the actual game.
These girls pay like everyone else (subs) and huge kudos to them. I just felt that a women's only team would enhance their experience. Maybe see more participating?
Not transgender and I don't want to derail the thread, just feel that talking about something and then seeing it played out live gives you a different feeling/perspective. Just didn't feel fair or equal. To me anyway.
This is local league cricket and I was watching the seconds play. I had heard that teams were now "mixed". Although it's not truly mixed as in 50/50 more like teams have one or two female players.
The opposition had two female players and when I went to the ground I saw them and I was quite happy to see it. Once the game started though I felt a bit of sympathy for the girls and also for the lads. It was just uncomfortable. These girls would be decent cricketers in a women's team but were pretty much made to look inferior players and I noticed the fast bowlers kind of slowed down for them too.
The whole scene looked uncomfortable from the banter to the celebrations to the actual game.
These girls pay like everyone else (subs) and huge kudos to them. I just felt that a women's only team would enhance their experience. Maybe see more participating?
Not transgender and I don't want to derail the thread, just feel that talking about something and then seeing it played out live gives you a different feeling/perspective. Just didn't feel fair or equal. To me anyway.
That's just historically not true. Sport is incredibly discriminatory whether it be social class or race.
This is also wrong, MTF trans athletes often lose to CIS athletes and aren't winning championships en masse. There seems to be little evidence that MTF trans athletes are having any significant effect on competition outside of niche examples. There was one big story where a female runner complained about losing to an MTF athlete and launched a lawsuit, only for her to then go on to beat that trans athlete on merit anyway.
You didn't see this play out though, not even close. This assumes that if a male transitions to a female she then carries on at the same level of performance and that just isn't true. The gulf you witnessed between those two genders would not have been present if it were females plus male to female trans athletes, but the discussion so often happens as if this would be the case.
I wasn't making any assumptions at all tbh.
If there was a point it was the one about talking about something and seeing it happen and coming away with different feelings/perspective.
The assumption is likely unconscious and not malicious, but still implicit and prevalent with a lot of this conversation. If you don't believe them to be equitable you wouldn't draw the parallel. If you didn't think it would be a similar scenario then you wouldn't have different feelings/perspective because what you witnessed is in no way equitable to the subject and you would consider it to be not related in any way. Nobody is talking about men vs women here, so there's no different feeling or perspective required after seeing that play out in action. That would only be relevant if the assumption was that men transitioning to women means they'd perform similarly to what you witnessed.
Well, the whole reason why this thread has been reopened is because the world governing body for swimming has released scientific evidence that MTF athletes maintain an unfair competitive advantage, and that was brought about by a MTF swimmer winning a national championship, beating multiple Olympic team members / silver medalists in the process.
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And it doesn't matter that not all trans women beat CIS women. There is no doubt that many trans women in many sports do have an advantage through going through male puberty.
A case in point is Hannah Mouncey who plays handball for Australia. I'm guessing she wasn't good enough to play for the men's team before transition (Please can we keep this respectful. I didn't post the picture to elicit dodgy comments).
That said I know that trans women want to compete as women and not in a special category because they want to be treated as women. But I keep coming back to feeling that CIS women at the elite level also have rights to compete on a level playing field. It sucks but I'm not sure if there is an answer that will make everyone happy
A case in point is Hannah Mouncey who plays handball for Australia. I'm guessing she wasn't good enough to play for the men's team before transition (Please can we keep this respectful. I didn't post the picture to elicit dodgy comments).
That said I know that trans women want to compete as women and not in a special category because they want to be treated as women. But I keep coming back to feeling that CIS women at the elite level also have rights to compete on a level playing field. It sucks but I'm not sure if there is an answer that will make everyone happy
Rugby League follow swimming's lead
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...g-in-barring-transgender-women-from-competing
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...g-in-barring-transgender-women-from-competing
I'm guessing now that a couple have done it, it will be a bit of a domino effect where most sports will follow.
"the US women’s footballer Megan Rapinoe believes the starting point should be inclusion. “Show me the evidence that trans women are taking everyone’s scholarships, are dominating in every sport, are winning every title,”
This is where the difference in a lot of opinions lie. I think if a single trans women is taking one scholarship, that's one to many...... if it can be scientifically they gained any sort of advance of previously being male, which has now been proven and acted upon.
Other people don't see that as an issue and either side will never agree.
That's a tricky one because there is scepticism about whether children should make permanent lifetime changes at such a young age (eg before 12)
sports has always been discriminating. It discriminates based on sex, age, weight etc.
I fail to see how anyone still need proof that MTF athletes having an extreme advantages over natural women at similar classification
I agree but the problem is that MTF athletes have a advantage over cis-females. This has been seen in most sports where MTF athletes have taken part as there are numerous cases of where they've gone from being a reasonable competitor in male sports to elite in female sport. On the reverse FTM we've not seen it.
Therefore, the argument comes down to what do you want female sports to be? A platform where you have equal competition or a platform where cis-females compete but will be serious disadvantaged if a MTF takes part?
Unfortunately, sport is a category when biological fact cannot be hidden/glossed over and is vitally important in determining the biological advantages a person will have. MTF athletes, even after hormone treatment, clearly still have residual advantages from going through male puberty that give them significant advantages against cis-females and this cannot really be discounted if you believe sport should have a equal playing field.
Just because the differences in performances between males and females diverge from puberty onward, does not mean the process by which that happened starts at puberty.
In fact, administering testosterone to women does not significantly affect their standing vertical jump, which would indicate the effects of testosterone on neuromuscular efficiency take place predominantly in the womb. Just to illustrate how gross the disparity is, the average SVJ for young women is 14 inches and 22 for young men.
The effects of testosterone in utero are always omitted in these debates and it amazes me people on committees can make decisions on this without mentioning or having learnt this simple fact.
In fact, administering testosterone to women does not significantly affect their standing vertical jump, which would indicate the effects of testosterone on neuromuscular efficiency take place predominantly in the womb. Just to illustrate how gross the disparity is, the average SVJ for young women is 14 inches and 22 for young men.
The effects of testosterone in utero are always omitted in these debates and it amazes me people on committees can make decisions on this without mentioning or having learnt this simple fact.
My understanding is that puberty blockers aren't permanent, they're a delaying tactic to keep kids' options open whilst they work out what they want. Those who decide on reflection that they don't want to change their gender simply come off the hormones and experience a normal, albeit belated, puberty.
But studies show when you take testosterone blockers as a woman it lowers your performance and some are arguing it reverts performance closer to that of a biological female. Lia Thomas was beaten by other females (despite previously been on the men's team) so there is evidence to support. On the other hand there are irreversible physical gains made that cannot be reduced by testosterone blockers so it depends how much of an advantage is assumed.
It’s not big or clever, but I view the abortion debate the same as the Trans sports debate.
I believe that abortion should be legal to the most sensible scientific limit that society gets comfortable with. That might be a stage where it could justifiably be called murder. It sucks. But I can get across it. No man should ever vote on it. Women do your thing. Pick your line and I’ll probably be ok with it. It’s fair for the many to the detriment of a singular.
Trans sports debates… Everything is fine and dandy until you enter a professional standard. From then on… I’m sorry, you can’t play professionally if you’re Transgender. It’s sucks. I’m with you. Its discrimination. It’s unfair. But its fair on the many to the detriment of the singular. That’s society.
I’d not give a damn about playing with/against a Trans person. There’s not a single thing that they could want to do that I wouldn’t help with. But there’s no workable solution that doesn’t Fcuk up the sport in question. It also holds the entire community back.
I think we should be honest/bold enough to say we’re being willingly discriminatory for a valid reason.
I believe that abortion should be legal to the most sensible scientific limit that society gets comfortable with. That might be a stage where it could justifiably be called murder. It sucks. But I can get across it. No man should ever vote on it. Women do your thing. Pick your line and I’ll probably be ok with it. It’s fair for the many to the detriment of a singular.
Trans sports debates… Everything is fine and dandy until you enter a professional standard. From then on… I’m sorry, you can’t play professionally if you’re Transgender. It’s sucks. I’m with you. Its discrimination. It’s unfair. But its fair on the many to the detriment of the singular. That’s society.
I’d not give a damn about playing with/against a Trans person. There’s not a single thing that they could want to do that I wouldn’t help with. But there’s no workable solution that doesn’t Fcuk up the sport in question. It also holds the entire community back.
I think we should be honest/bold enough to say we’re being willingly discriminatory for a valid reason.
That's not evidence to support it.
All some people are doing is disingenuously claiming lowering performance is the same as mitigating conferred advantage. When every genuine expert/researcher in the field will tell you it doesn't.
I'm assuming the first instance of female should be male here?
Well, like you said, the caveat is "closer", which IMO isn't good enough. Neuromuscular efficiency will stay remain higher, because it's pre determined by genetics and the effects of testosterone in utero.
No amount of blocking a male's testosterone will have his standing vertical jump lower from a 22 inch to a 14 inch. He'd be sick or dead at that point.
Something I forgot to mention in my initial post is that the record for a male's standing vertical jump is 46 inches (wtf) and 29,5 for a female and these numbers are probably more applicable to elite athletes.
The ability to apply force quickly just isn't determined solely (or largely) by current testosterone levels and this is why pound for pound men are superior athletes.
The NCAA lists that there are over 5000 female Division 1 swimmer/divers in the United States. Lia Thomas won a Division 1 national championship in one event and finished in the top 8 in D1 NCAA in two other events, and beat multiple Olympic silver medalists in the process. Lia Thomas was nowhere near that level competing in the male division in previous years.
Unless these stats are for pre-pubescent kids (which I'm pretty sure they're not), they don't seem particularly relevant to your argument. If your theory was correct, we'd expect to see disparities between the innate physical abilities of boys and girls to become apparent long before puberty, and we don't.
A quick search led me to a journal article about an experiment where they measured the vertical jumps of 800 boys and girls between the ages of 10 and 12. They found no significant difference between the jump heights of the male group and the female group.
It shows that females can be competitive with trans women.
Yes it should be male and i haven't seen the notes about vertical jump but maybe they can test this theory soon and see how trans female basketball players are effected for their vertical jumps after undergoing treatment. Michael Jordan actually has a 46 inch vert and 2 rookies this year have matched it.
That makes sense. That's like being a D1 basketball player as a male (still elite compared to gen pop) then transitioning and you are now a top prospect 1st round pick in the NBA draft.
Yup, a lot of people have come with that type of reasoning which I don't understand as I think it misses the point on why men and women are separated in different categories to begin with.
A trained athlete is going to beat an untrained person most of the time if we're talking about fully developed adults, so a college swimmer is going to be better than most men that haven't trained swimming or compete at that level but that doesn't mean that men have a physical advantage and it makes ok for them to compete with women.
They don't need to win every single competition so we can realize it was something unfair, in the case of Lia Thomas she was already getting better results than as a man and there were a lot of allegations about her very own teammates and other swimmers accusing her of even holding back in the finals; that in itself was something insane which made the discontent grow up.
To be more specific, that’s like doing this…
Thomas’ 2018-2019 rankings
554th in mens 200 freestyle
65th in mens 500 freestyle
32nd in mens 1650 freestyle
Thomas’ 2021-2022 rankings
5th in women’s 200 freestyle
1st in women’s 500 freestyle
8th in women’s 1650 freestyle
damn. That's a CRAZY jump. Just for comparison how many people do each event? as in she came 554th out of how many contestants
Wrong premise. My post was a refutation of this exact commonly held, incorrect belief.
The 2D:4D digit ratio is a well known bio marker of prenatal T effects and there's a myriad of studies demonstrating it's relationship with athletic performance. Here's one most relevant to the topic at hand, but there are obviously many other such proven relationship both within and outside of athletic performance.
The relationship between the digit ratio (2D:4D) and vertical jump performance in young athletes - PubMed (nih.gov)
Testosterone has in utero effects on neuro muscular efficiency, starting 8 weeks after conception. The fact that this process finishes and becomes more pronounced at puberty doesn't mean they are more important than the in utero effects. It just means suits on committees and the general public are obsessed with the stage of the process that coincides with the development of the familiar secondary sexual characteristics.
Actually, there might be gender differences within children as well, not that it changes my previous point: (PDF) Strength and vertical jumping performance characteristics in school-aged boys and girls (researchgate.net)
There's already a study in which in which women who were administered testosterone did not see significant improvements in their SVJ, which is easily explained by the in utero effects of testosterone on neuro muscular efficiency (in addition to many other effects of T in the womb)
Effects of moderately increased testosterone concentration on physical performance in young women: a double blind, randomised, placebo controlled study | British Journal of Sports Medicine (bmj.com)
I've seen others as well in the past. Don't care too much to dig them up again, as I think I've made my point abundantly clear.
It would be very convenient for trans people if only the puberty stage affected athletic performance and the testosterone pumped into the womb was just for the fun of it. Unfortunately the science says this isn't the case and this should be far more obvious to the morons on these committees that seem to be more concerned with not hurting anyone's feelings than the actual science.
This perfectly sums up my thoughts better than I could
A bit of reading suggests that studies purporting to show causal links between digit ratios and various physiological traits are generally of low quality and findings are impossible to replicate. Digging a bit deeper it appears that the purported link between digit ratio and testosterone exposure in the womb is itself dubious. The largest study run to date found no significant correlation between the two, and the most notable study which claimed a correlation has never been successfully replicated. By all accounts the consensus in the scientific community seems to be that 2D:4D is a bit of a joke.
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